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Old 2010-06-02, 09:38   Link #101
Vexx
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But to tell the truth, my biggest beef with the anti-lolicon crowd is the fact that they always portray the issue as being about depictions of prepubescent girls when pretty much every single law I’ve seen concerning lolicon goes after material featuring characters who look “under 18”. At that point, it’s isn’t just about fighting pedophilia anymore, there’s some mission creep going on.
"Mission creep" is an excellent way to describe it... I fully expect to retire hearing words like "o my, the child was only 26..."

I've already seen at least two "studies" that redefined anyone under 25 as a "child" to make their statistics look scarier.

Its like some cancerous Puritanism ... the idea that someone somewhere might be having fun.
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Old 2010-06-02, 10:05   Link #102
Nosauz
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I know parenting is hard, I grew up in the 90s with a family split up due to work, the easiest thing for my parents was to park me infront of the TV but they didn't, even with their busy 9-7ish maybe even later they would find time to take me out to exercise, if they didn't feel like it, they'd atleast force me out of the house to enjoy the out doors, parenting isn't easy but it's about making those sacrifices if you truly love your children, doing what needs to be done, even if it's hard. I think making your sure your children are educated is JUST as important as putting down food on the table so saying your tired or finding an excuse just exmplefies why you shouldn't be a parent.

Also lets be honest, today's television is tame relative to modern kids television. I mean the most violence I got was a kick to the chest or robot toy fighting in power rangers, nothing overtly sex filled like say degrassi. It was a simpler time, and imo a better time.
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Old 2010-06-02, 14:33   Link #103
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I grew up watching My Little Pony and Duck Tales. Now one quick look at current cartoons on tv and I think hell is on Earth. Not to mention how an average violent or erotic movie is now airing in prime-time instead of late hours as it was done in the 80's in my country. What will kids get from all that? I mean, parents could be absent back then too and the worst thing that could happen is seeing your son singing the My Little Pony theme. Now you are worried if he goes to the storage to get an ax or something.
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Old 2010-06-02, 18:48   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post

Also food for thought for you guys while I head back to lurksville.
If these girls were:
1: Black
2: Same age
3: Had normal casual clothes on
4: Mimicked more of Beyonce's video and moves with less of the ballet work
- Would people still be screaming bloody murder in here?

I care not what ethnic background they are. It is the clothes they wear that really bothers me most. If they had appropriate attire, I'd probably have no problems at all. But I think the adults made a really bad decision with the attire. Not appropriate for girls that age, at all, I think.
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Old 2010-06-06, 07:13   Link #105
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Why take sides when you can have both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1hNu...eature=popular
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Old 2010-06-06, 07:44   Link #106
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wtf is wrong with people? there was no POINT to that video, wtf?

At least the "Single Ladies" one showcased the girls' talent o.O

And moreso wtf was the point in posting that piece of dung?
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Old 2010-06-06, 11:43   Link #107
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Just showing how it can turn ugly if it becomes a fad and every 3yo with no talent wants to do something similar.
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Old 2010-06-06, 15:03   Link #108
Notebook Darling
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Lots of things already have been said.

1) the girls are very good at dancing and are very talented. Both at the ballet and the bootyshaking part.
2) the outfits are what's making it unappropriate. I think that if they had worn different outfits then it would've been more on the 'cute' side.

However, the moves they're doing is totally not terrible for their psyche (the outfits are worse). Some time ago I was laying sick in bed and watched some children's shows. There are sexual references in those shows too. However, as child, you won't see anything 'wrong' in it. It's been teached to you it's 'wrong'.

Ah well ~
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Old 2010-06-06, 16:10   Link #109
Mystique
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Haven't had a chance to sit and read up on replies since I last posted the vids and left a question to the board but will try to read in bits and pieces and see if i can compile something by weekend (another 5 days of work)
*sobs*
Scanning this latest page though, am seeing more people beginning to distinguish that they didn't agree with the attire rather than the dance (no qualms with me) and violence on tv?
Cause Tom and Jerry didn't have plently of it, or loony toons throwing anvils on each other, making them into walking pancakes wasn't violent.
Or Elmer Fudd shooting duffy duck in the face when Bugs Bunny tricked him, sure isn't violence.
Slapstick, yes, without the blood or dark feel to it, but it's still a gun to the face being blown off. xD
(notice as kids, we didn't think much of it though...)

There's been articles on that. If those cartoons came back in full force, be sure (and there has been already with T&J) that parents will complain about the 'bad influences' that are portrayed in it.
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Old 2010-06-06, 16:40   Link #110
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I object to it on the same basis I object to underage beauty contests and things: they are sending the wrong message to the girls, and bringing out the worst in parents. Seriously, if you watch what really goes on in those kiddy beauty pageants, you'll be horrified.

It's also attempting to sexualize girls who haven't even hit puberty yet. Sure, if the girls wanna do that when they hit later ages, that's fine; it's their choice. But there are plenty of other dance numbers, songs, and outfits you can put the girls in to showcase talent. The outfits and actions detract from the girls as human beings.

Not sure why violence was brought into this.
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Old 2010-06-06, 17:45   Link #111
Lord of Fire
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Not sure why violence was brought into this.
Because people usually have less of a problem with that then with sex (or sex-related things). Plenty of violent movies are PG-13 or barely R-rated, while a movie with only a slight bit of suggestive content gets the NC-17 label.

Anyway, I understand why people have a problem with the outfits, but at the same time, I think it's us overreacting to it that is the true problem here. Over time, we've grown to associate these pieces of clothing with women who have sex for money. But that doesn't mean that wearing these clothes automatically makes a girl a (potential) prostitute, it just means that this girl likes wearing this type of clothing. Same goes for the dance. That pole dancers do this does nothing short of the fact that it's just a dance and that it's only the environment that one dances in that makes it sexual or not.

I'm all for "letting children be children" or "letting them have a normal childhood", but what do we define that as? And who decides what is right and what is wrong? Suppose these girls want to become professional dancers when they grow up, how is this NOT part of their 'normal' childhood?

IMO, it's not the clothes' fault, the dance, or even the people who worked with these kids, it's the adults that scream bloody murder over it who are the true problem. Unless they were forced to do this dance in those outfits, I don't really see why we must make such a big deal out of it. Those kids probably don't see anything special about it, so why do we?
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Old 2010-06-06, 21:30   Link #112
Urzu 7
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Scanning this latest page though, am seeing more people beginning to distinguish that they didn't agree with the attire rather than the dance (no qualms with me) and violence on tv?
Yeah, it was the attire for me, as I said. When I watched the video, some of the inappropriate dance moves were, well, not appropriate, but I probably wouldn't care too much if it wasn't for the attire. If they had appropriate attire, I'd probably be indifferent to this and may not have even chimed in in this thread, for all I know.

But someone said in this thread that they are being "sexualized", a term I agree with. That is what bothers me. They could have taken these girls, with their talent, and executed the whole thing right, as in something far less controversial, so much so that most people would find no controversy with it. They could have utilized their dancing abilities without creating the negative obstacle of controversy.

And this does remind me of those little girl beauty pageants, something I don't like. I think those are bad for most of the girls that take part in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post

IMO, it's not the clothes' fault, the dance, or even the people who worked with these kids, it's the adults that scream bloody murder over it who are the true problem. Unless they were forced to do this dance in those outfits, I don't really see why we must make such a big deal out of it. Those kids probably don't see anything special about it, so why do we?
No, it IS the fault of the adults who worked with these kids. They were not forced into these dance outfits, however, the adults who coordinated this thing decided on the outfits, told the kids that those are the outfits they'd wear, and them being 8 year olds, trusted the adults, didn't know any better, and went along with it (they really don't know any better), and were 'sexualized', as some have said. The adults who coordinated this thing really should have known better than to put 8 year old girls in outfits such as those.
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Old 2010-06-06, 22:07   Link #113
Vexx
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Sexualization depends as much on the "mental baggage" or "cultural baggage" of the viewer as anything else.
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Old 2010-06-06, 22:53   Link #114
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But with those baby beauty pageants, aren't the mothers who breathe fire down their young girls' backs the exceptions rather than the norm? I am very aware of the bad rap these pageants have gotten, with those few crazy moms and cases like JonBenet Ramsey popping up.

And again, the attire is rather unnecessary. One could reasonably argue why the choreography is appropriate, but no one said showing so much skin would make things any better.
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Old 2010-06-06, 23:10   Link #115
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In my opinion, not appropriate at all. I don't think they should even be on stage, even if they were wearing more clothes. They should be leading a regular child's life, not in the spot light or in a photo shoot. That's how they end up becoming parents before they graduate high school.
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Old 2010-06-07, 00:31   Link #116
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Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
In my opinion, not appropriate at all. I don't think they should even be on stage, even if they were wearing more clothes. They should be leading a regular child's life, not in the spot light or in a photo shoot. That's how they end up becoming parents before they graduate high school.
I see nothing wrong with exposure. If the kids aren't crying themselves to sleep at night, and are actually enjoying playing dress up and dancing, it won't seem any different to them than having a good time playing doll house and tag with friends; they can't possibly know any different. Kids just want to have fun, and if this is where they get their fun, what's wrong with that?
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Old 2010-06-07, 03:28   Link #117
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In my country, mothers go crazy over their kids if they are smart at school. They pressure them to study to death so they will be first in grades and have the privilege to hold the flag in national parades. Yes, we still have those here. It's kind of the same thing actually, parents forcing their children to use their talent to get famous and get on tv. But at the same time, this is a far more ephemeral event than pageants, as it's a one-time event. There is nothing beyond that and a gloat around "I held the flag at high school".

When I was going to English school, they offered free fees for a year to the one who score the highest in class. The smart kids gave their best to increase scores. I got the best marks without much effort as I had indirectly learned it by watching too much foreign television (yeah, nice upbringing I got from parenthood). My parents were gloating for years about it. I didn't give a shit. It wasn't even a challenge. Same thing when I got the Proficiency certificate. Parental gloat, gloat and more gloat. Not to mention how my father wanted me to become a professional football player (a thing he always wanted to be but never managed) and my mother a chemist (a thing she could have been if she didn't drop university to marry). Me? I wanted to draw cartoons, lol.

Anyways, all those parents just force their dreams on their kids. The kids can't possibly know if they like it. They hardly know what they want from their lives. And what do they tell them? To be perky (a step before sexy) to go ahead in life. Not bad as an advice but it's THEIR will. Not their kids'. Thus it IS about the adults turning their children to things of desire. And they ARE called desires as it's THEIR desires as adults.
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Old 2010-06-07, 16:06   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komari View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1
In my opinion, not appropriate at all. I don't think they should even be on stage, even if they were wearing more clothes. They should be leading a regular child's life, not in the spot light or in a photo shoot. That's how they end up becoming parents before they graduate high school.
I see nothing wrong with exposure. If the kids aren't crying themselves to sleep at night, and are actually enjoying playing dress up and dancing, it won't seem any different to them than having a good time playing doll house and tag with friends; they can't possibly know any different. Kids just want to have fun, and if this is where they get their fun, what's wrong with that?
I see your point of view, but it's the same thing with child p,rn. If you get them from a young age, they don't see anything wrong with it. In the same aspect, their are countries who teach children to kill.
Their was a case of a group of young kids being assassins.
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Old 2010-06-07, 22:50   Link #119
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Old 2010-06-08, 02:14   Link #120
Lord of Fire
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I see your point of view, but it's the same thing with child p,rn. If you get them from a young age, they don't see anything wrong with it. In the same aspect, their are countries who teach children to kill.
Their was a case of a group of young kids being assassins.
You (and IMO, many others) are looking into this way too deeply.

People have become way too sensitive about stuff like this and if that doesn't change soon, we might as well keep our kids locked up at home until they're fully grown adults. Of course, then you'll probably have child abuse reports skyrocketing because parents themselves can't keep their hands off their own children (as they are the largest group who abuse children).

Anyway, this video is the prime example of how we've grown to overreact to everything involving children who behave different from their peers. And with our ever-growing fear of pedophiles and child porn, the majority of people can't see it in any other light anymore.
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