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Old 2010-06-08, 10:09   Link #121
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
People have become way too sensitive about stuff like this and if that doesn't change soon, we might as well keep our kids locked up at home until they're fully grown adults.
You present a false dichotomy. There are more choices than locking up a child, and training them to be a slut from an early age. The reason why child porn is bad, is because it exploits children. Kids who don't have the emotional or mental maturity to handle what is going on, are being used and trained by adults with ulterior motives.

That's what is happening here. The girls have no idea what kind of image they are broadcasting. All they see is that people are cheering at them; thus, they'll grow up thinking "all I have to do is dress like this and move like that and people will like me." Other kids will see the attention these are getting, and naturally want to imitate it to get attention to. Are those really the values we want to put in our kids? Is that what we prize?

In other nations, parents pressure their kids to be good spellers (India) or excel in academics (asian). It says a lot about our western values, when we seem to revel in athletics and dance, and then we wonder why people are stupid, and why countries like the US are rapidly starting to full behind.

Another dance number and better outfits would have showcased the girls' talent just fine, so why did they do it this way? The answer is obvious, and that's why it's wrong.
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Old 2010-06-08, 10:48   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You present a false dichotomy. There are more choices than locking up a child, and training them to be a slut from an early age.
Could we stop the slut thing please? There's nothing wrong with enjoying sex. No, not even if it's a woman enjoying sex.

Quote:
All they see is that people are cheering at them; thus, they'll grow up thinking "all I have to do is dress like this and move like that and people will like me." Other kids will see the attention these are getting, and naturally want to imitate it to get attention to. Are those really the values we want to put in our kids? Is that what we prize?
While I agree that no one should feel the need to dress in a certain way if they're not comfortable doing so, I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching children that it's okay for a woman to wear short skirts and the like if that's what she wants to do. And I think those are the values we should be concerned about.

I can't access the video from Germany due to the music it contains, so I don't really have an opinion on it, but I highly doubt those children will feel pressured to explore sexuality in a few years because of what they were wearing there. In the worst case, they'll feel slightly embarassed about the whole thing. Comparing that to children being trained to kill from an early age is taking it way too far, in my opinion.
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Old 2010-06-08, 12:12   Link #123
Lord of Fire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You present a false dichotomy. There are more choices than locking up a child, and training them to be a slut from an early age.
What's funny is that I didn't mention training them to become 'sluts' in the slightest bit, you are the only one saying that.

Quote:
That's what is happening here. The girls have no idea what kind of image they are broadcasting. All they see is that people are cheering at them; thus, they'll grow up thinking "all I have to do is dress like this and move like that and people will like me." Other kids will see the attention these are getting, and naturally want to imitate it to get attention to. Are those really the values we want to put in our kids? Is that what we prize?
They aren't presenting any image, you (and many others with you) just think they do.

Quote:
In other nations, parents pressure their kids to be good spellers (India) or excel in academics (asian). It says a lot about our western values, when we seem to revel in athletics and dance, and then we wonder why people are stupid, and why countries like the US are rapidly starting to full behind.
I think there are other causes for the US' declining educational value (and those in other countries), none of which have to do with dancing.

Quote:
Another dance number and better outfits would have showcased the girls' talent just fine, so why did they do it this way? The answer is obvious, and that's why it's wrong.
I call BS. It's a dance number like many other, which requires practice, timing, balance and whatever not. Every problem we see with it is merely caused by our minds thinking too much into it. I seriously doubt anyone had any ulterior motive by letting these girls do this. If so, then prove it.
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Old 2010-06-08, 13:00   Link #124
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[QUOTE=Nogitsune;3083489]Could we stop the slut thing please? There's nothing wrong with enjoying sex. No, not even if it's a woman enjoying sex.

Oh, sex is fine; I have no problems with that. But only for people who have come of age and are able to understand the full consequences of their actions; a child has not.

And you have to understand how your child will be viewed if you raise them a certain way. Good luck trying to change everyone's viewpoint.

Quote:
While I agree that no one should feel the need to dress in a certain way if they're not comfortable doing so, I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching children that it's okay for a woman to wear short skirts and the like if that's what she wants to do. And I think those are the values we should be concerned about.
What they were wearing has more in common with lingerie, then actual dress. You're teaching girls that their body and how they move is more important than who they are as a person. You're saying, "if you want attention, you gotta move and dress like this." We already have enough problems thanks to magazines that cause girls to become anorexic in order to get the perfect body type.

Quote:
I can't access the video from Germany due to the music it contains, so I don't really have an opinion on it, but I highly doubt those children will feel pressured to explore sexuality in a few years because of what they were wearing there. In the worst case, they'll feel slightly embarassed about the whole thing. Comparing that to children being trained to kill from an early age is taking it way too far, in my opinion.
Killing is a very apt analogy; in both cases, you're training kids to undertake actions that don't understand, and will have severe effects on them down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
What's funny is that I didn't mention training them to become 'sluts' in the slightest bit, you are the only one saying that.
No action exists in a vacuum. In a perfect world, sure, it wouldn't matter. But we live in this world, and women who are raised to dance around in scantily-clad outfits will be seen as slutty. As I said above, we already have problems with Magazines portraying false images of what their body should be like; and we're sliding down the slippery slope of showing them how they have to act to get attention in the world.

You really want that?

Quote:
They aren't presenting any image, you (and many others with you) just think they do.
On some level, I agree with you. But until your reality changes to match the ideal, we have to live with what is. And that means, they *are* broadcasting an image.

If I put on a white robe with a white cone hat that covers my face, and held an effigy of a burning cross, that doesn't mean anything, right? Especially if I stood in the middle of a street where a lot of black people lived? They'd obviously only *think* I'm broadcasting an image, but it's all in their minds.

Nothing exists in a vacuum. Artists make a living through the use of their symbols; it's very much a part of who we are as humans. To deny it, is to deny humanity itself.

Quote:
I call BS. It's a dance number like many other, which requires practice, timing, balance and whatever not. Every problem we see with it is merely caused by our minds thinking too much into it. I seriously doubt anyone had any ulterior motive by letting these girls do this. If so, then prove it.
Easy; this video was posted here. If they really wanted to just showcase the girl's dance moves, they could have selected a normal dance number and a more modest outfit. If they did, though, they wouldn't have the shock value that meant people would post it in places like this because it is out of the ordinary.

Ergo, they did it on purpose.
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Old 2010-06-08, 13:25   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Oh, sex is fine; I have no problems with that. But only for people who have come of age and are able to understand the full consequences of their actions; a child has not.
You talked about training them to become "sluts". Eventually. When they're grown up, I'd assume.

No one said children should have sex.

Quote:
And you have to understand how your child will be viewed if you raise them a certain way. Good luck trying to change everyone's viewpoint.
Well, "everyone" could start by ceasing to throw the word slut around. It would be a start. Society's view on women and other, smaller groups has been changed many times already, and is still changing.

If I had children, I wouldn't care much about how they are seen as long as they are happy. And I know quite a few women who are happy dressing and acting in a manner you would probably call "slutty", as well as a bunch of people who would never dream of judging them.

We're getting there.

Quote:
What they were wearing has more in common with lingerie, then actual dress. You're teaching girls that their body and how they move is more important than who they are as a person. You're saying, "if you want attention, you gotta move and dress like this."
I can't speak for other people, but I have been praised for a lot of things as a child I dropped the moment they stopped being fun. I've been taughts that my family will support me in my decisions, as long as those decisions are not dangerous and unreasonable (though now that I'm no longer a child, they'd probably support me even then if they weren't able to change my mind). And if I'd said, "I want to wear a short skirt and dance like the women on TV!", I'm pretty sure they'd have let me. I don't think it would have changed much.

Quote:
We already have enough problems thanks to magazines that cause girls to become anorexic in order to get the perfect body type.
Different issue, especially since anorexia is an eating disorder. It's dangerous, it's not fun, and I find the comparison distatestful.

Quote:
Killing is a very apt analogy; in both cases, you're training kids to undertake actions that don't understand, and will have severe effects on them down the road.
Children who are trained to kill usually end up with a lot of psychological problems, not to mention they and other people tend to end up dead eventually. Those girls, on the other hand, are just having fun, and I highly doubt they'll have to see a therapist because of that in the future, nor do I think that they will cause anyone to die.
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2010-06-08 at 13:38.
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Old 2010-06-08, 14:53   Link #126
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Those girls dancing like that, it's already 1000x better than Beyonce or the other oldies. Throw in some autotune and you'll have cashcows for atleast 20 years. Meh wonen and girls have been heading the wrong direction since Madonna. Nothing to do about it.
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Old 2010-06-08, 16:20   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
You talked about training them to become "sluts". Eventually. When they're grown up, I'd assume.

No one said children should have sex.
Then think really hard about what situations you're putting girls into like this. I'm no prude, but there is a distinct line being drawn when you sexualize children, and toss them into waters they aren't prepared to swim in. That just screams, "child abuse."

Quote:
If I had children, I wouldn't care much about how they are seen as long as they are happy.
Yeah, you know, I'm sure you're happy if adults started dressing their kids with swastikas and showing them all about how white people should be proud, and refer to others as inferior. Who cares if anyone takes offense, as long as the kids are happy? Yeah, it's Godwin'ing, but you do agree there are limits to what we can do with children; it's just a matter of deciding where that line is.

Quote:
And I know quite a few women who are happy dressing and acting in a manner you would probably call "slutty", as well as a bunch of people who would never dream of judging them.
Once again, older women dressing how they want to is fine. That's one thing. Dressing up children is something else.

Quote:
I can't speak for other people, but I have been praised for a lot of things as a child I dropped the moment they stopped being fun. I've been taughts that my family will support me in my decisions, as long as those decisions are not dangerous and unreasonable (though now that I'm no longer a child, they'd probably support me even then if they weren't able to change my mind). And if I'd said, "I want to wear a short skirt and dance like the women on TV!", I'm pretty sure they'd have let me. I don't think it would have changed much.
Your experience does not equate to everyone else. Like it or not, a lot of people see something like what those girls did, and immediately think of exploitation or sexualizing children.

But let's take it further: Suppose the adults teach the girls how to lap and pole dance. Their next number is up there, suggestively rubbing and twirling on poles. It's just harmless dance, right? Suppose they train them to slowly take off clothes. They never get naked, it's only suggestive. It's only the image in your own mind that's at fault, right?

Quote:
Different issue, especially since anorexia is an eating disorder. It's dangerous, it's not fun, and I find the comparison distatestful.
It's psychological. A person stops eating because they see themselves as fat, or unattractive, due to magazines and model images that showcase what they should be. Millions of girls get depressed because their self-image is thrown off. There is literal, demonstrable harm done. It's like saying "psh, gunshot wounds are nothings and something you can't prevent. So who has a problem giving away guns to anyone that wants one?"

Quote:
Children who are trained to kill usually end up with a lot of psychological problems, not to mention they and other people tend to end up dead eventually. Those girls, on the other hand, are just having fun, and I highly doubt they'll have to see a therapist because of that in the future, nor do I think that they will cause anyone to die.
And what makes you think children like this don't end up with issues later in life, that are sometimes just as worse than a child trained to kill would?
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:34   Link #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It's like saying "psh, gunshot wounds are nothings and something you can't prevent. So who has a problem giving away guns to anyone that wants one?"
I don't have a problem with this.

Protip: Don't bring up gun control to illustrate a point on an internet message board. It's just as bad as bringing up Nazis.
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:47   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
You (and IMO, many others) are looking into this way too deeply.

People have become way too sensitive about stuff like this and if that doesn't change soon, we might as well keep our kids locked up at home until they're fully grown adults. Of course, then you'll probably have child abuse reports skyrocketing because parents themselves can't keep their hands off their own children (as they are the largest group who abuse children).

Anyway, this video is the prime example of how we've grown to overreact to everything involving children who behave different from their peers. And with our ever-growing fear of pedophiles and child porn, the majority of people can't see it in any other light anymore.

You don't have to exaggerate just because some people object to this.

When all is said and done, the adults who were the head of this thing could have, and should have, made better decisions. They could have had better outfits and still displayed the dancing talents of these girls, and that would have been for the better. We don't have to "lock up all the children until they are adults", but when dealing with 8 year old children, you have to treat them appropriately, and generally speaking, young children do need to be 'sheltered'; with this gradually lifting as they get older (this is referring to the quote in bold).
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:59   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I don't have a problem with this.

Protip: Don't bring up gun control to illustrate a point on an internet message board. It's just as bad as bringing up Nazis.
The problem is that there are very few things one can use an example that everyone is feels the same about. Instead of Nazi's, I could use Stalin or Mao, but it doesn't have the same impact because people aren't as familiar with them (even though they killed tons more than Hitler ever did).
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Old 2010-06-08, 18:07   Link #131
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I think that most people all agree that in some way or another, it's unacceptable. Most of the argument however has to do with each person's definition of unacceptable.
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Old 2010-06-08, 20:07   Link #132
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I've been following this thread intently, and all I can say is it shows how polarized some of our ways of thinking about what's right and wrong can be.
I've already given my 2 cents on the video and am not about to tell people how to raise their children! As a parent I must weigh both the good and the bad of a given situation and rely on both my experience and my own upbringing, as well as my gut instinct and common sense ( something that has somehow disappeared these days!).
In other words think before you act, cause kids do mimic their parents!
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Old 2010-06-08, 20:47   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Then think really hard about what situations you're putting girls into like this. I'm no prude, but there is a distinct line being drawn when you sexualize children, and toss them into waters they aren't prepared to swim in. That just screams, "child abuse."
I think calling something like this "child abuse" is pushing it, simply because I don't see how those children are harmed.

Quote:
Yeah, you know, I'm sure you're happy if adults started dressing their kids with swastikas and showing them all about how white people should be proud, and refer to others as inferior. Who cares if anyone takes offense, as long as the kids are happy? Yeah, it's Godwin'ing, but you do agree there are limits to what we can do with children; it's just a matter of deciding where that line is.
Not caring about how my hypothetical children are seen by society is not the same as not caring about whether they cause harm to someone. There's a big difference between being racist and wearing mini skirts.

Quote:
Once again, older women dressing how they want to is fine. That's one thing. Dressing up children is something else.
Maybe the children were involved in picking the clothes and thought they looked pretty. Maybe they were only allowed to wear them that once. We don't know anything about their private life, and as long as the parents are not forcing their children to do anything they don't want to (or let them do anything that has been proven to be dangerous and/or damaging), I'm not really bothered.

Quote:
Your experience does not equate to everyone else.
That's what I said.

Quote:
Like it or not, a lot of people see something like what those girls did, and immediately think of exploitation or sexualizing children.
And then they go ahead and do just that? I'd like to see proof of that.

Quote:
It's psychological. A person stops eating because they see themselves as fat, or unattractive, due to magazines and model images that showcase what they should be. Millions of girls get depressed because their self-image is thrown off. There is literal, demonstrable harm done. It's like saying "psh, gunshot wounds are nothings and something you can't prevent. So who has a problem giving away guns to anyone that wants one?"
Once wearing mini skirts becomes a life-threatening disorder, we can come back to this.

Women should not feel pressured to look or act a certain way, I agree with that. In fact, that's my whole point. I don't know much about child psychology and I can't even access that video, but I do know that it's a big problem how people are talking about those children growing up to be "sluts", and that being a "slut" is inherently bad. I don't feel much like arguing about a video I haven't watched, but I will argue that being "slutty" is no more or less awesome than staying a virgin forever and never wearing anything even remotely revealing, or something in-between.

Quote:
And what makes you think children like this don't end up with issues later in life, that are sometimes just as worse than a child trained to kill would?
How about the lack of evidence?
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Old 2010-06-08, 23:04   Link #134
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I noticed you didn't respond to the situation I put forth. What would you think if adults taught these girls to lap and pole dance, and they put on a show? Perhaps a little strip tease, but no nudity?

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
How about the lack of evidence?
30 seconds on google:
http://www.healthyplace.com/eating-d...dy/menu-id-58/
http://www.healthyplace.com/eating-d...en/menu-id-58/

Body-image *is* a big issue among young people growing up. According to that last article:

More than 43 percent of the girls in one study said they were on a diet. The most common methods used were" skipping meals, taking diet pills and inducing vomiting after eating," the study said.

Young women already have issues, and you want to add to them? It's well-documented that things a child goes through, can cause them to have issues later in life. We're only now getting to issues like the video, too busy sexing kids up to wonder exactly what kind of effect it's going to have on them later. But hey, why think about such things? What's important is what the adults want right now. The kids will get over it.

Hopefully.

Why don't we ask Jon Benet Ramsey how well she got over it?

True, nothing could happen. But given the mound of evidence about what affects kids and how, I'd err on the side of caution.
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Old 2010-06-08, 23:26   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Why don't we ask Jon Benet Ramsey how well she got over it?
There is seriously no evidence that her death had anything to do with her participating in beauty pageants, and a true link between the two isn't very realistic or logical. That's just mess the media stirred up because they could, as usual.
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Old 2010-06-09, 01:11   Link #136
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I noticed you didn't respond to the situation I put forth. What would you think if adults taught these girls to lap and pole dance, and they put on a show? Perhaps a little strip tease, but no nudity?
I'd condemn it for reasons that go beyond "hmmm, the outfits are a little much."

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And what makes you think children like this don't end up with issues later in life, that are sometimes just as worse than a child trained to kill would?
Mystique's posts, since she seems to have more knowledge of what kids think about dances like these than anyone else here has shown.

As for the eating disorders and body image stuff, well, you're assuming girls that do dance competitions have more body image issues. It wouldn't surprise me if that's the case but I'm not about to assume it is.
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Old 2010-06-09, 01:35   Link #137
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I think calling something like this "child abuse" is pushing it, simply because I don't see how those children are harmed.
Well, it IS a rather shameless act that will be remembered when said girls go around looking for a job later..."oh yes, you're one of those who were dancing around scantily dressed ten years ago" (or even more recently, assuming they take it up as a career).
Quote:
but I'm not about to assume it is.
Having participated in a dance group before, I've learned that body image is important indeed...
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but I will argue that being "slutty" is no more or less awesome than staying a virgin forever and never wearing anything even remotely revealing, or something in-between.
By your standards I could compare a professional dancer or a football legend to...girls with a certain sense of fashion? Doesn't look that awesome to me.
Quote:
Maybe the children were involved in picking the clothes and thought they looked pretty. Maybe they were only allowed to wear them that once. We don't know anything about their private life, and as long as the parents are not forcing their children to do anything they don't want to (or let them do anything that has been proven to be dangerous and/or damaging), I'm not really bothered.
I was bothered to a great extent by what I saw, because these kinds of things shouldn't have come to be. I don't care if it's their parents' fault, or society's fault or even their own fault, but I'd definitely have a "talk" with someone about it.
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Old 2010-06-09, 08:30   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I noticed you didn't respond to the situation I put forth. What would you think if adults taught these girls to lap and pole dance, and they put on a show? Perhaps a little strip tease, but no nudity?
I probably wouldn't think much if it was for a dance competition and didn't look like there's more to it, though if the lap dance involved body contact, I'd have a problem with it.

Quote:
30 seconds on google:
http://www.healthyplace.com/eating-d...dy/menu-id-58/
http://www.healthyplace.com/eating-d...en/menu-id-58/

Body-image *is* a big issue among young people growing up.
Uh. Now we're back to eating disorders and body image?
I highly doubt one dance will do that to a bunch of children. Again, we don't know anything about their private life.

Quote:
Young women already have issues, and you want to add to them?
One of these issues is that some people are quick to dismiss them as "sluts".

Quote:
True, nothing could happen. But given the mound of evidence about what affects kids and how, I'd err on the side of caution.
Caution is fine, but there were already people who argued why this thing might be perfectly harmless. I don't feel like having the same discussion again when that wasn't even my point. My point is that if those girls for some reason grow into adults who are happy dressing in short skirts and enjoying sex, there's nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with women like that in general. A lot of people here didn't seem worried about those children developing insecurities so much as those children turning into "sluts" once they are adults, and that's a problem for me.


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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Well, it IS a rather shameless act that will be remembered when said girls go around looking for a job later..."oh yes, you're one of those who were dancing around scantily dressed ten years ago" (or even more recently, assuming they take it up as a career).
I doubt many people will make the connection as long as those girls don't become famous.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
By your standards I could compare a professional dancer or a football legend to...girls with a certain sense of fashion?
...Hu?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was purely talking about the "oh no, they will grow into sluts, and sluts are bad!" thing.
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Old 2010-06-09, 10:42   Link #139
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I think the real issue here is that the parents/school officals thought this would be a great idea. That kind of blind stupidity is what really scares me. There is obviously a pedo stalking around there somewhere, maybe a parent or teacher.

What the fuck is wrong with these people to miss this? At the very least the parents should be forced to attend classes to teach them how to raise their kids, or even have them taken away. They need to find out if there is more than one pedo there.
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Old 2010-06-09, 10:44   Link #140
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Originally Posted by Komari View Post
There is seriously no evidence that her death had anything to do with her participating in beauty pageants, and a true link between the two isn't very realistic or logical. That's just mess the media stirred up because they could, as usual.
Once you delve into the world of child beauty pageants, it's hard to see how it wasn't a factor. Parents backstab each other all the time, treating their kids like dolls and not real people, and violence often does enter into it. It's not unlike parents who push their kids through little league, though for some reason, it's worse than sports.

And the girls who live through it, do have issues later in life. Like the beauty pageants for grown women, they teach women what is important in life: your body and being dumb. Consider this prize specimen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I probably wouldn't think much if it was for a dance competition and didn't look like there's more to it, though if the lap dance involved body contact, I'd have a problem with it.
You have no problems training children to engage in sexual acts? Because a pole or lap dance is entirely sexual in nature.

Quote:
Uh. Now we're back to eating disorders and body image?
I highly doubt one dance will do that to a bunch of children. Again, we don't know anything about their private life.
Interesting comment from one person on youtube in response to the vid: "ive been dancing and competing all my life, and ive seen far worst at competitions for this age."

If you really think this is just one dance, and not that bad, then you're basically closing your eyes to the real situation. I'm curious now, exactly how deep this rabbit hole goes, but then again, I'm that sort of person.

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One of these issues is that some people are quick to dismiss them as "sluts".
Your jab is off the mark, because I never said they were sluts. I said the adults were "training them to be sluts from an early age." As in, when they grow up. Although, I've no doubt the vast majority of men prefer women to want to give sex away easily and expose as much skin as possible all the time.

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Caution is fine, but there were already people who argued why this thing might be perfectly harmless. I don't feel like having the same discussion again when that wasn't even my point. My point is that if those girls for some reason grow into adults who are happy dressing in short skirts and enjoying sex, there's nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with women like that in general. A lot of people here didn't seem worried about those children developing insecurities so much as those children turning into "sluts" once they are adults, and that's a problem for me.
BP thought there was nothing wrong with continuing to drill if one of the safeties was broken. And another was nonfunctional. And they didn't do a full job capping the initial well. After all, if they did, they would just be "cautious" and why be "cautious" when so many other wells turned out just fine?

The world needs more people that think like BP, because bad things don't happen *all* the time.

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I doubt many people will make the connection as long as those girls don't become famous.
Which is ironic, considering how this video is spreading. I'm sure no one will connect the star wars kid to his real life persona; I'm sure he wouldn't become famous, either.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2010-06-09 at 11:20.
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