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Old 2010-05-31, 03:00   Link #41
albertac
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That's horrible! But I just viewed a video on youtube about US project that states they can stop any nuclear missile attack using that system. I just forgot the keyword for that one, it's been 5 months now... amazon affiliate software

Last edited by albertac; 2010-06-04 at 02:29.
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Old 2010-05-31, 03:20   Link #42
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
...There's also the issue that a nuclear rocket would spew out tons of radioactivity that would seriously screw up any electronic device to cross its wake.
So screw Project Orion. Nah, the main issue is the radioactive fallout, not the gamma radiation. In orbit, we still have the ozone layer as a shield against general radiation, so shouldn't be a problem.

We just have to wish that the rocket goes beyond orbit before blowing up. And HOPE that it does.
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Old 2010-05-31, 05:36   Link #43
C.A.
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Nobody is going to launch a nuclear rocket straight from Earth, it will just be a waste of fuel.

Sending things to space in the future is all about space elevators and electromagnetic mass drivers. And to propel the spacecraft in space, it would most lightly be ion drives and solar sails.

Even if the rocket is to be propelled in space with nuclear engines, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. The radiation emitted by the rocket is insignificant compared to solar wind and cosmic radiation. I'm sure scientists are clever enough to figure out not to ignite the engines within the Earth sphere where it does damage.
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Old 2010-05-31, 06:50   Link #44
Jaden
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I don't know about intergalactic, but first it'd be nice to see an actual working spaceship. Y'know, something that could ferry people to say, Mars and back, is manueverable, can protect people from the hazardous environments, is capable of atmospheric inserts and exits without disposable add-ons, and doesn't have to rely on fuel tanks 3x its size.

I think for now that'd take some kind of nuclear reactor to work. But if there was a working spaceship like that, it'd feel easier to kind of build on it and eventually have something that can travel further.
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Old 2010-05-31, 10:42   Link #45
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For starter, I call for the completion of a space elevator, and the bold use of Orion driven lifters to carry the materials into orbit.

And again for interplanetary travel, an Orion drive would be the most reasonable for manned exploration; as it is the only feasible technology that would allow to carry sufficient mass at a sufficient speed.

Any other currently examined technologies are too damn slow for manned exploration.

I say we gotta regain the guts to use the powerful blasts of explosions to propel ourselves toward the stars, be them chemical, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion or antimatter.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:38   Link #46
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
So screw Project Orion. Nah, the main issue is the radioactive fallout, not the gamma radiation. In orbit, we still have the ozone layer as a shield against general radiation, so shouldn't be a problem.

We just have to wish that the rocket goes beyond orbit before blowing up. And HOPE that it does.
The Orion Project is unfeasible; here's why.
As for the radiation threat, I'm not so much worried about the fallout reaching the earth itself, but it's been shown by high-altitude nuclear tests like Starfish Prime that radioactivity from explosions destroys satellites and other electronics.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:41   Link #47
RadiantBeam
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I suppose I'm one of the few people who just isn't very interested in space. I'll admit we get some nice pictures from it, and it's nice to think that we might not be the only forms of life that exist in the universe, but I just don't find it all that fascinating at all. It's a lot of freedom, a lot of blackness, a lot of stars, and a lot of planets we haven't been to yet. I'm personally much more interested in what Earth still has to offer us, instead of looking to the sky for something new and exciting.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:03   Link #48
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
For starter, I call for the completion of a space elevator, and the bold use of Orion driven lifters to carry the materials into orbit.

And again for interplanetary travel, an Orion drive would be the most reasonable for manned exploration; as it is the only feasible technology that would allow to carry sufficient mass at a sufficient speed.

Any other currently examined technologies are too damn slow for manned exploration.

I say we gotta regain the guts to use the powerful blasts of explosions to propel ourselves toward the stars, be them chemical, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion or antimatter.
Well what about buckyball rockets? Plenty of mass, propulsion, and little of pollution!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
I suppose I'm one of the few people who just isn't very interested in space. I'll admit we get some nice pictures from it, and it's nice to think that we might not be the only forms of life that exist in the universe, but I just don't find it all that fascinating at all. It's a lot of freedom, a lot of blackness, a lot of stars, and a lot of planets we haven't been to yet. I'm personally much more interested in what Earth still has to offer us, instead of looking to the sky for something new and exciting.
You soul is tied to the Earth! I declare a colony drop!
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:08   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
You soul is tied to the Earth! I declare a colony drop!
A colony drop being what, now?
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:18   Link #50
felix
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Anyone found space fascinating?
I have no interest in floating rocks. Although, if you find another terra call me.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:32   Link #51
C.A.
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
I have no interest in floating rocks. Although, if you find another terra call me.
Floating rocks? Solid matter is extremely rare in space actually, 99% of known visible matter in space are gas.

And is life limited to floating rocks? Science don't think so nowadays.

And if humans were to populate space, floating rocks are not the only things we can colonise.

Also does Earth have alot to offer? For now yes, but space has infinitely more to offer if we could reach it.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:39   Link #52
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Floating rocks? Solid matter is extremely rare in space actually, 99% of known visible matter in space are gas.

And is life limited to floating rocks? Science don't think so nowadays.

And if humans were to populate space, floating rocks are not the only things we can colonise.

Also does Earth have alot to offer? For now yes, but space has infinitely more to offer if we could reach it.
Earth doesn't have much to offer because of globalisation and "what sells" in the news-media industry : any mystery we have can be verified through Wikipedia or Google, or through joint discussions over the internet.

Interesting that you would come up with the notion that we won't just colonise floating rocks. There are always space stations and cloud cities.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:54   Link #53
C.A.
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Interesting that you would come up with the notion that we won't just colonise floating rocks. There are always space stations and cloud cities.
You know, in the future, we humans may not exist as humans anymore. We may be robots, or even pure information. We may not even need ground to stand on, food to eat or air to breathe.

'Life' now has a broader meaning than before, not just limited to carbon based lifeforms, not even silicon based, but energy, particle and wave lifeforms.

I'm sure some of the people posting here have watched the 'Universe' series among others. One of the most interesting lifeforms I've heard were electric life forms developed from electrical storms that have reached some sort of steady state over gas planets or even white dwarfs. The electric activity may somehow behave digitally and have its own binary pulse, the life may develop and improve itself through 'programming'. Electric life forms, traveling around the planet/star at half the speed of light.

Space is everything that's beyond the imaginations we have on Earth, literally.

A brown dwarf is not brown. It is a red hot glowing ball of molten iron with an atmosphere of gaseous iron. It is permanently shrouded in a super charged iron storm with iron clouds and iron rain. The extremely dense ball of iron has an extremely powerful magnetic field and electromagnetic radiation.

Is space fascinating? Yes.
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No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:27   Link #54
MikaMiaka
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Okay I know this is going to sink to the bottom of the forum, but thought I would try anyway.
In the spirit of making that not happen. ^

Hey, does "And Beyond" means we can talk about Michio Kaku here? I thought of this thread when I was rewatching his series on Time.

Michio Kaku is awesome. I wish I could take him at CUNY, it would be so rad.

I've been watching his 2006 BBC Four Series on Time, and it's just too interesting. The series breaks down into 4 1 hour episodes,

1) Daytime (he talks about the human concept of time, and whether this sets us apart from animals' concept of time because we believe that most animals are forever stuck in the NOW, without a conception of the past or future or their own mortality)

2) Lifetime (he talks about the process of aging, in us, and in animals( oil spill) found sea urchins that they thought only had a lifespan of 7 years but in reality, they found that these sea urchins lived for 150 years, the triggering of them testing the urchins was the finding of nuclear radiation found in these urchins due to nuclear testing in the pacific 50 years ago)

3) Earthtime (the least interesting of the bunch for me, but it was still interesting to see that they found a rock 400,000 million years old -- just too bizarre!

4) Cosmictime -- watching this now and I know it's gonna be great because he's already talking about dimensions and places where time can flow backward, forward, where time can be split into two -- I'm just utterly fascinated.

I also love it when he talks about the concept of the future, wherein he breaks down the future of intelligent species into Type 1 Civilization, wherein we can make use of the whole planet and control its every function, including weather, Type 2 wherein we harness the power of this planet and our surrounding planets and Type 3, where we harness the power the universe to the point where we can control time and space.

We are type zero right now, he says. You can watch it here, it's 40 mins long.

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/ca...617169X3kr98Yp
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:31   Link #55
RadiantBeam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Is space fascinating? Yes.
Asking if space is fascinating is really a matter of personal preference, and it depends on who you ask. I'm one of those people who doesn't find space all that fascinating. I'm more amused that we're so curious about it when we still have so many other things to explore on Earth, and problems on Earth that we haven't figured out how to at least calm down a bit.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:37   Link #56
MikaMiaka
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Asking if space is fascinating is really a matter of personal preference, and it depends on who you ask. I'm one of those people who doesn't find space all that fascinating. I'm more amused that we're so curious about it when we still have so many other things to explore on Earth, and problems on Earth that we haven't figured out how to at least calm down a bit.
I don't know why it has to be one or the other. (!) Both are interesting, but if you were to weigh it, think about ants. We're just like ants in our obliviousness of the bigger world. IT is nice to know the ant farm or the dirt nest in the ground well but would it not be amazing, as an ANT, to see and experience what humans see? Things in this GIANT scope? It's insane. So, I hope that makes sense. That is why I think people find space BEYOND interesting.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:38   Link #57
NorthernFallout
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@RB: As long as one doesn't go "hurfdurf, space exploration is useless and waste of time/money" I don't see how focusing/having interest in Earth is wrong. As you say, personal preference.

As for myself, I'm both. Space is a tad higher, being a big sci-fi fan among other things, but Earth is as fascinating in itself... because of I'm also an post-apocalyptic/future history fan.

Always with the fan thing...
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:39   Link #58
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@RB: As long as one doesn't go "hurfdurf, space exploration is useless and waste of time/money." focusing on Earth is nothing wrong.
Eh, I'm not saying it's useless or a waste of time or money. I'm just personally not very interested in space.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:40   Link #59
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Asking if space is fascinating is really a matter of personal preference, and it depends on who you ask. I'm one of those people who doesn't find space all that fascinating. I'm more amused that we're so curious about it when we still have so many other things to explore on Earth, and problems on Earth that we haven't figured out how to at least calm down a bit.
When you compare the knowledge of Earth to the knowledge of space, you will definitely feel that space is more fascinating. We have plenty of concrete knowledge of earth which is extremely pragmatic, within our reach, and research conditions are all that possible. But to know even more about space, or even start a research there, is even more difficult. All that adds to the mystery.

An ocean lab is worth about 20 billion. The ISS is worth 160 billion. And there are alot more things and possibilities in space that we don't know. Besides there aren't many areas left on Earth to explore, not at least with borders and statehood and such.

As we continue strip mining the place we live in, it would be better to have a backup plan so we can live somewhere else.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:41   Link #60
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Yes and no. Due to the laws of physics, unless they've figured out FTL travel, there could be several other planets with intelligent life, and they just can't get here. With travel time of thousands of years (space is really frikkin' big), it's impractical and pretty much impossible.
You don't need FTL. At .25c, a speed which is entirely possible to reach, with a nuclear rocket, it would only take a few decades to reach the nearest stars. Colonize them. (Note that these colonies don't even necessarily have to be biological humans. Self replicating Von Neumann machines count too, which puts the distance each wave of expansion can go a little farther because you don't have to worry about things like human life span.) Those colonies build up and in a few hundred to a few thousand years, they send out ships to stars a bit further out. Once colonies are established there, they send out ships, and so on, giving an expanding ring of civilization. In a few million years, such a method will colonize an entire galaxy. Small jumps, not big leaps.



Quote:
I'm not quite sure you understand nuclear rockets, but most people don't and thus why the idea wasn't pursued more heavily. They don't just out radiation to launch. There are tons of nuclear reactors around the world, and we haven't reduced our planet to a radioactive wasteland yet. On a basic level, all a nuclear reactor does is produce heat. In one providing energy, the heat turns water into steam, which drives a turbine. For a nuclear rocket, the heat is used to shoot out exhaust. *Any* current rocket shoots out more pollution than a Nuclear Thermal Rocket would.
I'm not sure you understand that there are many many different types of nuclear thermal rockets and the ones you want to use get into orbit like an orion drive or a nuclear salt water rocket DO put out a lot of radioactive waste. All of them, even the designs that don't release radiation directly, are a potential Chernobyl too. Why do you think we aren't already using them?

Quote:
Of course. But it requires a LOT of fuel. Roughly half that than of conventional rockets (which is it's biggest draw), but for true space exploration, you can't be tugging a bunch of fuel around. You need compact drives with a compact fuel source, unless you wanted to lug more fuel up from the planet (which is inefficient). That's what makes ion drives so nice; they can accelerate constantly using a tiny, tiny amount of fuel (but it's slow acceleration, and thus better for probes than human spaceships).
Fuel is less of a concern when you're getting the amount of thrust and delta-v a nuclear rocket can provide. Does it really matter if you're using 5 times the fuel when you have a space elevator to get things into orbit cheaply, the thrust and delta-v to carry 20 times the mass, and can accelerate to a much higher speed? The amount of thrust and delta-v you get out of that fuel is what matters. If you have more than enough to carry the fuel and the payload you want, you're good to go. Also remember, you don't need to be constantly accelerating in space, unless you're using a 1g acceleration to simulate gravity. Other than that you can just accelerate to your desired velocity and let sweet sweet inertia take care of the rest until it's time to slow down.

Also on ion engines, sure they don't have that much acceleration, but you're writing them off for human use too soon. If you're going to the outer planets, they still give better travel time than chemical rockets.

Also we're both ignoring the possibility of a mixed drive system. An electric rocket for long term use, and a nuclear rocket for situations that require a lot of delta-v.

Quote:
Yes, but we don't have fusion working yet, and who knows how long that will take? VASIMR is pretty much proven to work. Oh sure, they have some tests to run still to work out the kinks, but it's a fairly well-understood technology. It's one that we could build today, if we had the money and will.
But we don't need one today. Right now we still have insane launch costs. Once we get a space elevator to bring them down, then we can talk abut colonizing the solar system. Right now it's too much cost for too little reward. In a few decades though? That'll change.

Quote:
Maybe. There are no dinosaurs around today, though, are there? Earth has had Extinction Level Events (ELEs) before. And even if an asteroid impact doesn't kill every human, it'll kill off most of humanity and force us back into the stone or copper ages. We haven't located every Earth-crossing Asteroid yet, so one could hit tomorrow, and toss enough dust and material up into the atmosphere to block out the sun for hundreds of years, killing off most plant life, with most animal life following.
There are people looking though. And we do have the technology to deal with something like that. Also, even if something like that did happen, don't underestimate humanity. We won't be knocked down lower than 19th century level technology. A lot of the underlying concepts are too widespread in the population to be lost unless we're all killed. Plus everyone knows it's possible to say use iron and carbon to make steel and have a rough idea of how to do it. It's not going to take nearly as long to reinvent things like that as it would to invent them from scratch.

Quote:
Could you tell me how you think nuclear rockets work?
Which kind? Nuclear thermal rocket isn't a type, it's more a catagory.
Orion drive- drop nukes out back
nuclear salt water rocket - shoot water with radioactive salts dissolved in it out the back, fission occurs. This one is my favorite due to it's high thrust and delta-v as well as relative fuel efficiency. It's not the best in any one area, but it's an over all solid design with strong performance in all areas. Drawback is not being able to use it to launch, but that's what space elevators are for.
Nuclear lightbulb- nuclear reactor is used to heat hydrogen which is then used as propellant
There are quite a few more too, some of which have actually been built, some of which aren't possible with current technology.

edit: Forgot a link http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3c2.html
Atomic rockets has a good run through of engine types.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam
A colony drop being what, now?
Just what it sounds like. Using a large multi-mile space colony as a kinetic weapon of mass destruction.

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