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Old 2010-06-02, 16:42   Link #41
Distinction
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Ace is/was so talented ( though nothing else to expect from Rogers son).
However i think that he got a Logia DF kinda killed him.
I think if he would have eaten a Paramecia or a Zoan or dont eaten any at all and went the "shanks way" he wouldnt lose to BB atleast from what we have seen so far.
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Old 2010-06-02, 17:00   Link #42
morbosfist
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We know from the Kuja that objects can be imbued with Haki beforehand. If Ace really had and could reliably control his Haki (which there's no excuse for him not to with people like Marco and Whitebeard around), being a Logia would make him dangerous beyond compare.
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Old 2010-06-02, 17:07   Link #43
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that's why I don't want logias with haki

but yeah, it would be nice

although being logia can make you overconfident and reliant on the DF .. then again if it's a DF like the admirals. ..


and tbh I don't like Ace having Haki even though it makes sense

maybe it was Luffy here =/
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Old 2010-06-02, 17:45   Link #44
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
And, to throw fire on the Haki discussion, why is everyone automatically assuming that Ace was the one to Hakipwn Bluejam's crew? Just cause he yelled? Luffy was there too, and we know he has the ability, so why isn't it possible that Luffy used the blast? .
@ the in-bold - I see what you did there .

To answer your question, as I said before, Luffy has only recently been expelling (uncontrollably, at that) his Haki to knock out fodder. Prior to the mini Duval arc, not once did we ever see Luffy unleash his haki to intimidate anyone/anything.
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Old 2010-06-02, 17:53   Link #45
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^So? Besides this one instance, we have never seen Ace ever use any Haki attacks (yes C.A. we all know everyone has Haki), which makes little to no sense. So which seems more realistic: Luffy, an idiot, unconcsciously using a power he does not understand at an earlier age than previosuly speculated; or Ace, a much more intelligent individual, using a power and then never using it again? I think, just based on what we know, it seems more reasonable that Luffy used the Haki Burst against Bluejam's crew.

Still, props to Bluejam for being able to withstand the "attack"...
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Old 2010-06-02, 18:00   Link #46
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Sabo still alive? Boooooooooooooo!

Not all hope is lost yet! If you cross your fingers long enough, you may see Sabo getting gobbled up by the sea king that took Shanks' arm next chapter! That'll teach the little scamp to run away from the responsibility of becoming a royal blowhard!
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Old 2010-06-02, 18:05   Link #47
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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@James - How do you know Ace didn't infuse Haki into his fire attacks during his fights against Blackbeard, Aokiji, and Akainu? Haki isn't something that is palpable to the eye.
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Old 2010-06-02, 18:28   Link #48
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Sabo is a revolutionary!
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Old 2010-06-02, 19:20   Link #49
james0246
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
@James - How do you know Ace didn't infuse Haki into his fire attacks during his fights against Blackbeard, Aokiji, and Akainu? Haki isn't something that is palpable to the eye.
Eveyone has Haki (C.A.: "Eveyone has Haki"). So of course Ace infused his attacks with some level of Haki. But, he has never shown the ability to use Haki Burst during any of the chapters in which he was shown in the past. Specifically, why didn't he Hakipwn all of Baraque Works (way back in Alabasta)? Or the marines in the same arc? Hell, Haki Burst can be used anywhere and under any condition, so why didn't he Hakipwn the marines when he was held captive (in Seastone cuffs)?

As far as I am concerned, only Luffy, Boa, Shanks and Whitebeard have been confirmed to have Haōshoku Haki, and this chapter showed nothing to concretely prove otherwise...
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Old 2010-06-02, 19:38   Link #50
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^ During the war, Luffy unleashed a Haki burst, to which Ace replied "You too?" Here in this chapter, Bluejam's cronies pass out after Ace yells at them to stop. Coincidence? Seems very unlikely.
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Old 2010-06-02, 19:45   Link #51
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^Whitebeard, Shanks and Rayleigh could all do something similar, so "You too?" could just as easily refer to one of those three individuals (especially Whitebeard) that Ace interacted with (well, I don't know how much Ace interacted with Rayleigh)...

And, once again, why didn't Ace do the same thing (if he could)? What's the point of having a power that can defeat 1000s of opponents at once if you never use it? Especially when you are in a situation where you can't use any of your other powers...
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Old 2010-06-02, 20:19   Link #52
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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^ I completely agree with your reasoning here. It does seem rather silly to not use a force that efficiently disposes of fodder. But the fact of the matter is that Bluejam's cronies fell subsequent to Ace's yelling. That being said, it's understandable why many believe (amongst other reasons) Ace possesses the King's Haki, since what he displayed was identical to what Rayleigh, Shanks, and Luffy, have done before.
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Old 2010-06-02, 20:34   Link #53
james0246
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^My argument was that, despite the yell, the burst came from Luffy, not Ace. Not every instance of the Haki Burst has been accompanied by a yell (Shanks and Rayleigh never yelled when they unleash their full Haki on others), so even if Ace yelled right when the burst occurred, that is not, in and of itself, concrete evidence to confirm that Ace has Haōshoku Haki.

To put it another way, I wouldn't question the scene at all...if Luffy wasn't present. But since Luffy has been shown to have the ability in question to render unconsciousness upon unsuspecting foes, whereas Ace has not shown this ability whilst being in several situations where the ability would be helpful, I can't help but question the assumption that Ace was the one who knocked Bluejam's crew out.
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Old 2010-06-02, 23:06   Link #54
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^My argument was that, despite the yell, the burst came from Luffy, not Ace. Not every instance of the Haki Burst has been accompanied by a yell (Shanks and Rayleigh never yelled when they unleash their full Haki on others), so even if Ace yelled right when the burst occurred, that is not, in and of itself, concrete evidence to confirm that Ace has Haōshoku Haki.
But Shanks and Raylieh could CONTROL the haki... hence not needing to yell out....
Luffy had no control, and thus could only summon the power of haki involutarily with extreme emotion; and thus you have it only occurring when it was enough to yelled out

Futharmore, at the moment at time, Luffy had been injured and was in danger of being killed... considering how the danger of his friends being killed is what influenced him, then the setting is not built for him, but more for Ace who is the one who is witnessing Luffy about to be killed

Quote:
And, once again, why didn't Ace do the same thing (if he could)? What's the point of having a power that can defeat 1000s of opponents at once if you never use it? Especially when you are in a situation where you can't use any of your other powers.
this only works under the unproven premise that Ace could CONTROL is haki power

Sure he sailed with whitebeard, but that doesn't mean whitebeard taught him to fight or anything like that

not to mention that haki is the force of will... if your will is broken as Ace's was when he was captured then he would not be able to use the power... and the mass haki burst is useful against peons, so it would not help free him
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Old 2010-06-02, 23:14   Link #55
james0246
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^While you have a fair point concerning the control Rayleigh and Shanks posses, I think you are off concerning Ace not learning to use the ability. Specifically, Luffy is dumb. He hasn't learned how to control his power because, quite honestly, I don't even think he knows that he is doing anything. Ace, though, is smart (well, smarter than the average bear at least), and him not drawing the connection between yelling and being emotional and people collapsing around him (especially when he would know of people like Shanks, and he would have gotten to see Whitebeard up close) seems a little far-fetched. Additionaly, your second argument more or less amounts to Ace never feeling emotional enough (after leaving Luffy) to unleash his Haki Burst, which is plainly untrue, considering his raw emotions towards Whitebeard both before and after the Spade crew were destroyed.
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Old 2010-06-03, 00:54   Link #56
Kallen4life
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I agree completely with james on all accounts .. if Ace has Haki and never uses it in the present I see that almost as a plothole

and really - if you have Haki and are on WB's ship and you are somewhat intelligent at least (hell, just knowing that you can do it and what it is is enough) there's no way you can't use it .. that crew is packed to the top with haki users .. 5-th division commander has it for christ sake
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Old 2010-06-03, 03:19   Link #57
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Personally, I think part of the reason why we never saw Ace use Haki in the present time is because he, like Luffy, didn't have good control over it. Now yes, Ace is smarter than Luffy and should have a better idea of how to control it, but I don't think that's the problem here. I think it's his lack of a grand "ambition" (or willpower) that prevents him from utilizing his Haki to its fullest extent. Remember, Ace is a guy who does NOT think highly of himself. Even as a kid, he merely expressed that his dream was to be a "great pirate", which we all know has later changed to "making Whitebeard the Pirate King". If he has no grand aspirations for himself, then I think it's no wonder why he's unable to control a force that's attributed to those with strong leadership qualities. Sure, he may have been able to knock out a few fodder pirates in this flashback, but against guys like Whitebeard, Akainu, or even Blackbeard, Haki wouldn't have been much use because the guy's seriously lacking in self-conviction.....
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Old 2010-06-03, 03:24   Link #58
Distinction
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Maybe learning to use the Kings Haki otherwise from emotional burst is way more complicated than a normal one even if ur near WB and Shanks. Afterall the only people who mastered it are old and really on top of the One Piece Universe.

And when he was about to be executed he had no will at all.
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Old 2010-06-03, 03:34   Link #59
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Additionaly, your second argument more or less amounts to Ace never feeling emotional enough (after leaving Luffy) to unleash his Haki Burst, which is plainly untrue, considering his raw emotions towards Whitebeard both before and after the Spade crew were destroyed.
But the times we saw these huge random haki outburst were completely similar to this one, they always happened when the killing blow was about to happen and all they could do it is yell to prevent it. Luffy to stop Margaret beeing smashed in bits, Luffy to stop the wolves finishing of Bon-chan, Luffy to stop Ace getting killed.

And we know WB ('s crew) didn't even remotely went as far as trying to kill the Spade crew or that Ace was in such a desperate situation that all he could do was yell to prevent a killing blow on one of his fellow crewmembers. That and not like it would've effected WB anyway.

And something else to, I agree Ace is smarter then the average pirate. So if it was Luffy back then doing it, shouldn't he been able to link that scene and the scene during the war and not been surprised that Luffy actually used haki and say more something of the lines, so it was you rather then you too? Guess you could say he just forgot but not like it wasn't a memorable scene.
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Old 2010-06-03, 05:30   Link #60
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I agree completely with james on all accounts .. if Ace has Haki and never uses it in the present I see that almost as a plothole
Yeah I think james's scenario is more plausible considering how it is One Piece..a mini twist like this wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all.
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