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Old 2010-06-03, 06:19   Link #61
Jabberwock
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The obfuscation of the Goa Emperor's face makes me wonder if it is an existing character/resemblance to an existing character. I don't think there would be much point obscuring it in two chapters if the character was a complete unknown-unless this flashback will continue for some time and he is the villain. Really intrigued me.

Sabo is great, love the character. Can well imagine his father disowning him and claiming he was among the dead of the Grey Terminal or something meaning Luffy would believe him dead.

Just to check, is it assumed that Kuma used his power to open that path to Dragon's ship?
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Old 2010-06-03, 08:31   Link #62
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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I'd also like to point out that Blackbeard really made Ace into a broken man. After his loss, Ace had to live with the shame of failing to avenge Thatch, so this brought his spirits down even more. In such a depressed state, we could say that Ace simply couldn't muster up enough will power to knock out his executioners during the war.
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Old 2010-06-03, 09:43   Link #63
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk
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Dragon is just.... awesome. His words are always intense. And I don't know, Sabo, Luffy and Ace may have not heard from each other since the day they split. So just because Sabo seems to be spoken in past tense doesn't mean that he's dead. Its still a chance he'll survive.

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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Ace knocking out fodder with a burst of haki seems to be a bit much. Luffy only started exhibiting such power when he was 17 (the present time), and yet here we have 10 year old Ace doing it. I'm cool with Ace having Haki, since like others have said, that was to be expected being the son of Roger and all. But at the age of 10? I dunno.
The thing about Ace is that Ace was more aggressive than Luffy at that age. So if you take Ace's fighting Spirit into consideration, even at the tender age of 10, it doesn't seem that unbelievable.

Another is that Ace's Haki burst and Luffy's Haki were all done subconsciously, and out of some sense of desperation. Haoushoku Haki was Ace's potential, but Haki couldn't get to that level because after he joined Whitebeard's crew... he lost his drive. He was content, he was happy, he found his family.
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Old 2010-06-03, 10:08   Link #64
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk View Post
Dragon is just.... awesome. His words are always intense.
To true. Dragon is slowly becoming a more and more interesting character. Can't wait to see him in full Revolutionary mode, conquering/freeing a nation, etc. Hopefully he won't be a Victor Laszlo, revolutionary by design, not action.

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Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk View Post
And I don't know, Sabo, Luffy and Ace may have not heard from each other since the day they split. So just because Sabo seems to be spoken in past tense doesn't mean that he's dead. Its still a chance he'll survive.
Of course Sabo could still be alive...but do we really want him to still be alive? Personally, I think it is a little insulting (to the story and the audience), to kill off one brother (and show all that tragedies emotional development), then immediately introduce another brother that will turn out to still be alive. But, if anyone can make it work, Oda could...maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk View Post
The thing about Ace is that Ace was more aggressive than Luffy at that age. So if you take Ace's fighting Spirit into consideration, even at the tender age of 10, it doesn't seem that unbelievable.

Another is that Ace's Haki burst and Luffy's Haki were all done subconsciously, and out of some sense of desperation. Haoushoku Haki was Ace's potential, but Haki couldn't get to that level because after he joined Whitebeard's crew... he lost his drive. He was content, he was happy, he found his family.
This will undoubtedly be the official excuse (if Oda really wants Ace to have had Haoushoku Haki), but it is a little weird. Why give a dead character an amazing power-up, then have them never use it because they lost their ambition? It would have been far simpler, and easier to digest, if the Haki burst came from the living character that we already know posses the trait, rather than a dead character that has never shown the trait when they were alive (until this flashback). It seems like such a useless plot point...so, here's hoping that Oda does something with a dead character's Haoushoku Haki...
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Old 2010-06-03, 10:24   Link #65
orangejuicetang
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Here's a thought for you. What if the Haki burst didn't come from Ace or Luffy... but rather from Dadan? She is shown to save them shortly afterwards, meaning she should be quite close.
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Old 2010-06-03, 10:35   Link #66
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Just want to mention that you don't need to have Haoushoku Haki to knock out people.

In fact knocking out weaklings with your Ki is one of the most common functions of Haki in all stories with it.
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Old 2010-06-03, 11:30   Link #67
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I am really amazed how you people can question Ace's King Haki!

He is the fuc$!%&/ son of Gol D. Roger!

If he doesn't have King's Haki, who does?!


It's just that Ace has no real ambition. This time there was an outburst, because he really wanted to save Luffy no matter what.
Vice-versa when Luffy wanted to save Ace.

If Ace had more ambition in general, he should have mastered Haki to some extent.
WB didn't choose him to be the next Pirate King out of fun. As the son of the former Pirate King he had the most potential.
Ace just waisted it, not being interested in his real farther's blood and the potential.
He didn't want to follow his farther's footsteps.
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Old 2010-06-03, 11:37   Link #68
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valid point, but still
Quote:
so, here's hoping that Oda does something with a dead character's Haoushoku Haki..
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Old 2010-06-03, 12:31   Link #69
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Just want to mention that you don't need to have Haoushoku Haki to knock out people.

In fact knocking out weaklings with your Ki is one of the most common functions of Haki in all stories with it.
I've generally been of the opinion that Haoushoku Haki is more readily shown in the ability to harm a Logia-user, rather than render others unconscious...
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Old 2010-06-03, 12:35   Link #70
C.A.
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I've generally been of the opinion that Haoushoku Haki is more readily shown in the ability to harm a Logia-user, rather than render others unconscious...
Well, Marco and Vista can do damage to Logias without having Haoushoku.

What's outstanding in Haoushoku Haki bearers is their ability to attract people and instill fear in enemies. Their charisma and reputation.
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:05   Link #71
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^That's right; I'd completely forgot about them.

In any case, there has to be something an indivdual shows, when they release their Haki, that allows others to differentiate between regular Haki and Haoushoku Haki...
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:21   Link #72
C.A.
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^That's right; I'd completely forgot about them.

In any case, there has to be something an indivdual shows, when they release their Haki, that allows others to differentiate between regular Haki and Haoushoku Haki...
Well like what I just said, the only thing outstanding is their charisma and reputation, they are leaders with ambition and personalities like powerful rulers.

If you want to see difference in battle potential of normal Haki and Haoushoku, you can only see it over a long period of battle. The stronger the Haki, the more an individual can last in battle, like how White Beard proves himself a truly fearsome monster.

If anything Oda has been showing the difference of Haoushoku bearers by how people love and hate them. How Hancock is loved by all and makes the strong willed feel cautious. How Whitebeard is loved by his sons and everyone else wanting to kill him, even Buggy and Crocodile.

Rayleigh, Marco and Vista are powerful Haki bearers, they are respected well but is not shown to have people loving them or hating them to death.
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:41   Link #73
Kallen4life
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good point about love/hate and KH users .. Shanks fits too, & Luffy


in battle I think the knock-out range may be bigger + it definately negates logia more then regular Haki

and don't forget when Shanks entered WB's ship - he had KH 'on' constantly, like an aura, and it even damaged the ship itself
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:41   Link #74
james0246
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@C.A.:

You missed a key detail. Boa knew instantly that Luffy had Haoushoku, and he had only been fighting for a few minutes. So, something else was present to indicate that Luffy had Haoushoku Haki. Specifically, Luffy expressed his Haoushoku in the devotion he showed toward Margaret, not the devotion any felt toward him.

It's like a cycle. Luffy is more "powerful" when he has something to protect, and he has something to protect because others trust him to protect them. His devotion to them is balanced by their devotion to. If it is only one way, then Luffy would not have the power he does...

Still, none of this is a real differentiation between Haki and Haoushoku, its fun arm-chair supposition, but in the end, it is unquantifiable. There has to be something truly unique about a possessor of Haoushoku outside of simplistic things that any Shounen character posses without needing to be unnecessarily philosophical (yes, I know you can argue that all the other Shounen characters posses Haki, but since few mangaka/directors ever set out to explain their characters "ambition" as being a definable power unto itself, there is no reason to discuss such options). Consequently, to put it in the simplest of terms, there has to be a specific feature, an attack or a defense or something, that only Haoushoku can use. Otherwise, it will all seem kind of meaningless...(or more like less meaningful).

Last edited by james0246; 2010-06-03 at 13:51.
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Old 2010-06-03, 13:53   Link #75
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^

You missed a key detail. Boa knew instantly that Luffy had Haoushoku, and he had only been fighting for a few minutes. No, something esle was present to indicate that Luffy had Haoushoku Haki. Specifically, Luffy expressed his Haoushoku in the devotion he showed toward Margaret, not the devotion any felt toward him.

It's like a cycle. Luffy is more "powerful" when he has something to protect, and he has something to protect because others trust him to protect them. Their devotion to him is balanced by his devotion to them. If it is only one way, then Luffy would not have the power he does...

Still, none of this is a real differentiation between Haki and Haoushoku, it's fun arm-chair supposition, but in the end, it is unquantifiable. There has to be something truly unique about a possessor of Haoushoku outside of simplistic things that any Shounen character posses without needing to be unnecesarily philosophical (yes, I know you can argue that all the other Shounen characters posses Haki, but since few mangaka/directors ever set out to explain their characters "ambition" as being a definable power unto itself, there is no reason to discuss such options). Consequently, to put it in the simpliest of terms, there has to be a specific feature, and attack or a defense, that only Haoushoku use
Hancock sensed Luffy's Haki just like how lots of fighting, martial arts films, not just anime and manga out there. They can always know how strong and weak they are just by a single look.

And the 'cycle' you mentioned, I've already said the same in my Haki posts. Luffy's Haki, his ambition, confidence, will and determination grows as he finds more people who believes in him. At the same time, his ambition, confidence, will and determination feeds back to his Nakama and everyone who believes in him. And then this strength of this bond is further adjusted by the emotions at each moment of time, negative emotions weaken Haki and positive ones boost Haki.

A king is only a king if he has followers, his followers boost his Haki.

Oda chose Haki out of so many types of 'power level measurements' out there because Haki is the most realistic and down to earth. Oda wants to have characters that become stronger by bonds of Nakama, not by some mystical or spiritual power, not something acquired like magic. He wants a realistic trait that can grow by character development, that is why he chose Haki, a real trait that exists in the real world but exaggerated in manga.
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Old 2010-06-03, 14:02   Link #76
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^That still doesn't really provide an adequate differentiation between Haki and Haoushoku, but I can wait until the series actually focuses on the matter before really caring about the issue...

Anyway, back on topic (or at least closer to a relevant topic), I do not think Ace possess Haoushoku Haki. He was subsumed too easily by Whitebeard to posses the "King's Ambition"...
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Old 2010-06-03, 14:39   Link #77
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Pardon me for barging in on the Haki talk with some more on-topicness, but I wanted to bring up a little theory I have about the king of Goa: What if it turns out that he's one of the Gorousei? As I pointed out a couple of times already, I find it very curious that Oda chose to obscure the face of a seemingly unimportant character. And if it is true that the Goa king is one of the elders, maybe this means that the rest of them were also some sort of ruler/politician in each of the other blue seas?



In fact, this reminds me of how some people wondered if the elders were related to the world nobles back when they were first introduced during the Sabaody arc. Well, I think it would be pretty interesting if the elders DO turn out to be of royal/noble descent themselves, though still unrelated to the Tenryuubito.....
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Old 2010-06-03, 17:50   Link #78
ArabianLuffy
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Now let's go back to chapter 581 page 17.

Quote:
Moria: Who's orders are you doing this...?! Was it Sengoku......?!!
Doflamingo: Nah... Higher up than that......!!!
I think Doflamingo was referring to Dragon. After seeing Kuma in chapter 587 page 16
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Old 2010-06-03, 17:54   Link #79
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Originally Posted by ArabianLuffy View Post
Now let's go back to chapter 581 page 17.



I think Doflamingo was referring to Dragon. After seeing Kuma in chapter 587 page 16
I highly doubt he works for Dragon. Probably talking about the wg ppl.
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Old 2010-06-03, 18:11   Link #80
ArabianLuffy
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I highly doubt he works for Dragon. Probably talking about the wg ppl.
You mean Gorousei (Five Elder Stars). Well, I thought at first them, and I did re-think again that the only organization that can stand against even the Gorousei themselves is the revolutionary army.
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