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Old 2010-06-30, 14:03   Link #2041
ElvenPath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Nah he's just as critical on the Dutch squad. He like good looking football. Honestly both Oranje and Brazil are denying their roots.
It comes down to both managers building their respective teams to win a competition, not to entertain.

Surely, if either team wins the world cup, all will be forgotten
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:07   Link #2042
hinakatbklyn
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Like that is going to help. You basically root for the Underdogs². I mean the outcome is predictable.
Ghana proved to the US that they were the better team, but I don't think the outcome in that match was predictable. The US was more of an underdog 4 years ago rather than this year (I think).

Even if their chances of winning the next match are far less than against Ghana (if they found a way to beat Ghana), up until the extra 30 minutes, they still played like they wanted to win at least that match.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:28   Link #2043
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hinakatbklyn View Post
Ghana proved to the US that they were the better team, but I don't think the outcome in that match was predictable. The US was more of an underdog 4 years ago rather than this year (I think).
Well, don't get me wrong. It is not like they would not play entertaining football. And I certainly enjoy their matches, but to expect them to win the World Cup... in all honesty... thats a little bit naive. So, teams like the US team are more likely to quit the stages earlier. That they reached the knock out stages is a respectable achievement.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:38   Link #2044
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Apparently *most* of the japanese media is praising the team and being supportive ... I'll just mark off that particular negative Japan TBS moment as a "*chan" style of ogre-troll who should be ashamed of themselves but lack the brainpower. Apparently TBS "news" is known for this type of boorishness.
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Old 2010-06-30, 14:40   Link #2045
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Originally Posted by ElvenPath View Post
It comes down to both managers building their respective teams to win a competition, not to entertain.

Surely, if either team wins the world cup, all will be forgotten
I think it would be an embarrassment to our history if the first WC we win is with bad football. It'll be bad influence on the future of football as well. I'm absolutely terrified that this counter football is spreading like wild fire.

Still hoping the guys simply didn't switch to higher gear, because it wasn't needed(talking about the Oranges, Brazil is a lost cause).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Apparently *most* of the japanese media is praising the team and being supportive ... I'll just mark off that particular negative Japan TBS moment as a "*chan" style of ogre-troll who should be ashamed of themselves but lack the brainpower. Apparently TBS "news" is known for this type of boorishness.
Wondering at what point of time TBS thought that was a good idea.
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Old 2010-06-30, 16:36   Link #2046
-Sho-
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This is one of the thing that i dislike about Japan damn , poor Player
Instead of bashing them , they must congrat them that they played well enough and they improved until 1/8 . This is not like that it's the first time that someone made mistake on the playground .

At least , it's not worse than France .
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Old 2010-06-30, 16:46   Link #2047
Elo the Blue
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Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
At least , it's not worse than France .
The only situation worse than what's going on with the French is Nigeria's fate.
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Old 2010-06-30, 16:46   Link #2048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hinakatbklyn View Post
Ghana proved to the US that they were the better team, but I don't think the outcome in that match was predictable. The US was more of an underdog 4 years ago rather than this year (I think).

Even if their chances of winning the next match are far less than against Ghana (if they found a way to beat Ghana), up until the extra 30 minutes, they still played like they wanted to win at least that match.
Having only one player that seemed to score made them pretty much still underdogs in my book. If they had an entire team of Landon Donovan clones then maybe they'd be competitive in the later stages.
And what do you know, I predicted the entire final 8 bracket without a single mistake. Later tonight I'll post my semifinal predictions.
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Old 2010-06-30, 16:56   Link #2049
justavisitor
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
I think it would be an embarrassment to our history if the first WC we win is with bad football. It'll be bad influence on the future of football as well. I'm absolutely terrified that this counter football is spreading like wild fire.

Still hoping the guys simply didn't switch to higher gear, because it wasn't needed(talking about the Oranges, Brazil is a lost cause).
But the original version of the total football from 1974 doesn't exist anymore, does it?? Time changes, and if ugly style is needed for the win, then by all means play it. You still have to have talents to win in an ugly style...(otherwise we will see many more underdogs in the final eight)

And when Holland finally wins the cup, every tv station will only re-broadcast the great moment and ppl will think that Holland did play beautiful football after the TV's cut
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Old 2010-06-30, 17:30   Link #2050
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
But the original version of the total football from 1974 doesn't exist anymore, does it?? Time changes, and if ugly style is needed for the win, then by all means play it. You still have to have talents to win in an ugly style...(otherwise we will see many more underdogs in the final eight)

And when Holland finally wins the cup, every tv station will only re-broadcast the great moment and ppl will think that Holland did play beautiful football after the TV's cut
True the original total football is gone, but we have always consistently used a attacking style with great success as well. The point is we have the talent to win with style(we get to see glimpses of that when Elia, Affelay and Robben play). Our best players are geared towards offense. I'm a firm believer in playing in a system that suits your players instead off forcing them into a role they aren't comfortable in. I simply don't buy it that we can beat Brazil at their own game. This style of play is more suited for the talent pool Brazil has. We could field a better version of the system Bayern has, they haven't done bad this last season no?.

The ugly style isn't needed to win though. Just, because inter won the CL doesn't make the style an instant success, it's just a better gamble for weaker teams. At least we have the likes of Argentina, Spain and I dare say Germany to keep the footballing style going. Honestly Brazil can f off and so can the Oranges if they keep this up.
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Old 2010-06-30, 17:42   Link #2051
Saturn Beaver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
http://kotaku.com/5576126/square-eni...iew-deplorable

Japanese media hating Komano and making his mother apologize. >_> They aren't really knowledgeable bunch are they. <_< Hope Komano can ignore the media.
Urgh, I hate things like this. One thing I don't like about penalties is that it becomes so much easier to put the blame on people, and being able to play well in a match isn't that simple. Also, it certainly is not easy when your entire country's fate is depending on you. It's of course much easier to blame your failure on the one guy's obvious mistake, but really, the score stays 0-0 until the shootout. Using simple logic, it means it's the offensive players' fault for not making goals to win, as opposed to Komano who as a defender doesn't allow a goal in and preventing them to lose.

I think there's something similar to this with Chelsea, it was a high-end Champion's League match, could have been the finals even. The player here is also a defender, the captain John Terry. Sure, he played bad this tournament, but at that time, he was an amazing center back and is essential for Chelsea's strong defense. In short, it's even worse for JT: unlike Komano, he was the last kicker and it ends right after his shot missed. And yet, it's very possible that Chelsea won't reach the match, let alone the shootout without his defending, and for a clear example earlier in the match he pulled off a miraculous save, which without him it will most definitely be a goal. I'm not saying that it's okay for players to miss their PK's, just that we should cut him some slack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
But the original version of the total football from 1974 doesn't exist anymore, does it?? Time changes, and if ugly style is needed for the win, then by all means play it. You still have to have talents to win in an ugly style...(otherwise we will see many more underdogs in the final eight)

And when Holland finally wins the cup, every tv station will only re-broadcast the great moment and ppl will think that Holland did play beautiful football after the TV's cut
I can understand where the Dutch came from though; when you haven't win anything for so long, you're willing to take new chances if the old method is not working anymore. As you said, it's all about talent as well. Of course Cruyff can say that, he's just that good he can pull off the total football which while beautiful, is not something just about everyone can pull off so flawlessly. At the very least, I don't think the current line-up can, as if this ugly playstyle suits them better, then by all means.

So yeah, for me personally if Holland loses it's not because that they choose an ugly playstyle, it's because the talent is not good enough (to pull the old playstyle well). The next match against Brazil is interesting to find two teams who leave their attractive roots and change them. Thing is, the reason Brazil is a huge favorite who pulls off greater wins is that they're arguably more talented; just compare Heitinga to either Lucio and Juan, and I believe Luis Fabiano is sharper than either RVP, Huntelaar, Babel or whoever.

Just look at it this way: if they win, everyone's happy and history is written by the victor. If they lose, there will be some mudslinging and Van Warwijk could be fired, but in the end they'll return to the old total football we all loved, hopefully with some new, better talents that will be able to pull it off better than the bunch we have now.
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Old 2010-06-30, 18:02   Link #2052
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver View Post
So yeah, for me personally if Holland loses it's not because that they choose an ugly playstyle, it's because the talent is not good enough (to pull the old playstyle well). The next match against Brazil is interesting to find two teams who leave their attractive roots and change them. Thing is, the reason Brazil is a huge favorite who pulls off greater wins is that they're arguably more talented; just compare Heitinga to either Lucio and Juan, and I believe Luis Fabiano is sharper than either RVP, Huntelaar, Babel or whoever.
The current team is way more suited for the old playstyle though?

vdWiel--heitinga--Mathijsen--vBronckhorst
-----------------vBommel
---------Sneijder--------VdV
Robben-------Hunt/RVP----Elia

Looks ideal to me though against stronger team. I would put DeJong instead of VDV and play the 4-2-3-1 against stronger opponents and keep the front 3(basically the same as Netherlands now, but with Elia instead of Kuyt).

We have a better midfield than Brazil and Robben(who's arguably the best player on the field) and Elia to exploit the holes created by the upcoming Bastos and Maico. Our CF either RvP or Huntelaar just need to annoy the 2 center backs. You can't cover them with one person. If anything if Robben can make an early goal and forces Brazil out of their turtle style. It would become very interesting. Eventhough I'm negative over the style where playing now. The switch to more offensive style is just 2 players away and considering Robben is a starter, it's one player away. I'm putting my money on Netherlands to win. Though I'd say it's really 50/50.
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Old 2010-06-30, 18:18   Link #2053
Elo the Blue
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
We have a better midfield than Brazil and Robben(who's arguably the best player on the field) and Elia to exploit the holes created by the upcoming Bastos and Maico. Our CF either RvP or Huntelaar just need to annoy the 2 center backs. You can't cover them with one person. If anything if Robben can make an early goal and forces Brazil out of their turtle style. It would become very interesting. Eventhough I'm negative over the style where playing now. The switch to more offensive style is just 2 players away and considering Robben is a starter, it's one player away. I'm putting my money on Netherlands to win. Though I'd say it's really 50/50.
The Netherlands have the better mid-field going forward but Brazil's mid-field is better devensively.

As for Elia, as talented as he is, it doesn't seem likely he'll start.

Van Persie and Huntelaar are quality players but Lucio and Juan have more than proven they can handle tough assignments.
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Old 2010-06-30, 18:27   Link #2054
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by Elo the Blue View Post
The Netherlands have the better mid-field going forward but Brazil's mid-field is better devensively.

As for Elia, as talented as he is, it doesn't seem likely he'll start.

Van Persie and Huntelaar are quality players but Lucio and Juan have more than proven they can handle tough assignments.
That's why I say it's a toss up. It's hardly a sure Brazil win. That Elia isn't starting is why I'm sad, but he'll come on, I just hope it's sooner rather than later. I'm pretty sure Bastos won't go forward with Robben there. So Maicon would have to do that(they need to score as well) and that's where Elia can be critical. It works so well for Bayern and it's also why they looked so toothless against Inter, because Ribery wasn't there to fill that role. I'm not saying RvP or Huntelaar can beat Lucio and Juan, but they are good enough to at least keep one person busy and at critical times both. So either Robben or Elia can work their magic.
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Old 2010-06-30, 18:51   Link #2055
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
http://kotaku.com/5576126/square-eni...iew-deplorable

Japanese media hating Komano and making his mother apologize. >_> They aren't really knowledgeable bunch are they. <_< Hope Komano can ignore the media.
WTF do Japanese media think they are Brazil or something? Remember before the tournament most people doubted they would even win a single game. Them going to round of 16 is a great achievement, the players should be respected not ridiculed. And making Komano's mom apologize is disgusting.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:03   Link #2056
Saturn Beaver
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
The current team is way more suited for the old playstyle though?

vdWiel--heitinga--Mathijsen--vBronckhorst
-----------------vBommel
---------Sneijder--------VdV
Robben-------Hunt/RVP----Elia

Looks ideal to me though against stronger team. I would put DeJong instead of VDV and play the 4-2-3-1 against stronger opponents and keep the front 3(basically the same as Netherlands now, but with Elia instead of Kuyt).

We have a better midfield than Brazil and Robben(who's arguably the best player on the field) and Elia to exploit the holes created by the upcoming Bastos and Maico. Our CF either RvP or Huntelaar just need to annoy the 2 center backs. You can't cover them with one person. If anything if Robben can make an early goal and forces Brazil out of their turtle style. It would become very interesting. Eventhough I'm negative over the style where playing now. The switch to more offensive style is just 2 players away and considering Robben is a starter, it's one player away. I'm putting my money on Netherlands to win. Though I'd say it's really 50/50.
I don't know, while the new style is indeed boring it seems that the players are quite comfortable playing it. I do want to see them use the old style though: while the new one is more consistent and is useful to get results in things like group stages and avoid losses against teams that they should be able to beat, Brazil is different. For this one, they need to work out the magic in Euro 2008 when they annihilate Italy and France. Fighting them at their own game is difficult because for me the only advantage Netherlands have over Brazil is Robben. The rest of them are still good, but I don't think Elia, Sneijder and RVP/Hunt is all that much better than Robinho, Kaka and Luis Fabiano. But the part that worry me the most is the defenders, Brazil pretty much outclasses them in every single position there, and I'm afraid this can be their downfall. Oh well, I'm rooting for Holland but as long as it's a fair game with both teams playing their best to win, I can accept whoever wins.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:20   Link #2057
justavisitor
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I cheer for Holland as well...I just fear that they will play the way Portugal played against Spain...imo, Portugal and Spain are closer than they appeared in that game, but Portugal respected Spain too much

Don't respect Brazil too much, Holland...but I fear that's exactly what they will do on Friday...
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:22   Link #2058
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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver View Post
I don't know, while the new style is indeed boring it seems that the players are quite comfortable playing it. I do want to see them use the old style though: while the new one is more consistent and is useful to get results in things like group stages and avoid losses against teams that they should be able to beat, Brazil is different. For this one, they need to work out the magic in Euro 2008 when they annihilate Italy and France. Fighting them at their own game is difficult because for me the only advantage Netherlands have over Brazil is Robben. The rest of them are still good, but I don't think Elia, Sneijder and RVP/Hunt is all that much better than Robinho, Kaka and Luis Fabiano. But the part that worry me the most is the defenders, Brazil pretty much outclasses them in every single position there, and I'm afraid this can be their downfall. Oh well, I'm rooting for Holland but as long as it's a fair game with both teams playing their best to win, I can accept whoever wins.
They have much better defenders, but ours aren't shit either, our DM's are better then then the Brazilian DM's in defending as well, It's just that Brazil uses 3 DM's. Our defensive line have been soild and Stekelenburg has been flawless(the weakness lies in vdWiel and vBronchorst who might as well be midfielders). I'd say the difference in quality of the attack is similar to the difference in quality of their defense(hoping that Robben can be the man that makes the difference). That's why I say it's a toss up. Honestly don't see Brazil scoring anything soon against us either. The boring style did teach the oranges patience.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:40   Link #2059
Bri
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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver View Post
So yeah, for me personally if Holland loses it's not because that they choose an ugly play style, it's because the talent is not good enough (to pull the old play style well).
There is some truth to that. The current defensive block of 4 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders of the Dutch is fairly limited on offense and would have trouble playing the 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 formations of the past. In the old system the central axis would move up and one of the CBs would act as an additional creative midfielder on attack and usually possess the ability to give a long range pass. The team effectively only has 3 defensive minded players: the WBs and one CB. With this style the opponent would be pinned down on their own half and a fast passing game would be used to break open the defense.

To play in the old system we'd need to drop a CB and a Defensive MF for a left and right half who would hold midfield to allow the wingers to go deep all the time. This tactic is still viable on the club level as shown by Van Gaal, but requires strong dicipline and is most likely too complex and error prone for the short periods of preparation of national teams.
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Old 2010-06-30, 19:57   Link #2060
Elo the Blue
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
That's why I say it's a toss up. It's hardly a sure Brazil win. That Elia isn't starting is why I'm sad, but he'll come on, I just hope it's sooner rather than later. I'm pretty sure Bastos won't go forward with Robben there. So Maicon would have to do that(they need to score as well) and that's where Elia can be critical. It works so well for Bayern and it's also why they looked so toothless against Inter, because Ribery wasn't there to fill that role. I'm not saying RvP or Huntelaar can beat Lucio and Juan, but they are good enough to at least keep one person busy and at critical times both. So either Robben or Elia can work their magic.
True.

I wouldn't be pushing up if I were Bastos but if he isn't bombing forward, Brazil essentially has no distrubution from the left(even though they love attacking through the middle).

Looking forward to seeing how De Jong does against Kaka.
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