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Old 2010-07-12, 11:04   Link #3001
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Maybe, but you have to remember the the Zidane-esque kick really was deserving a red card, but the ref didn't give that to the Dutch either, so while it's still bad refereeing, I wouldn't say he was biased.
Given how the referee has been handing out yellow cards to the Dutch throughout the entire game....he got sick and tired of it.

Puyo's pole-dancing a opposing striker went past unnoticed too.
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:17   Link #3002
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Maybe, but you have to remember the the Zidane-esque kick really was deserving a red card, but the ref didn't give that to the Dutch either, so while it's still bad refereeing, I wouldn't say he was biased.
Indeed. The people who still complain about the refereeing are, to me, the epitome of sore losers: Unapologetic Dutch blame Webb (Eurosport)
"Dutch coach Bert van Marwijk made no apologies after his team used rough-arm tactics in an attempt to knock Spain out of their stride in a scrappy, niggly World Cup final while Dirk Kuyt and Arjen Robben pointed the finger of blame at English referee Howard Webb."
Oh, really? Then I guess retired footballer Johan Cruyff should go ahead and surrender Dutch citizenship, for disagreeing — emphatically — with what he saw on Sunday night.

Cruyff hits out at 'anti-football' Holland
Quote:
Amsterdam (July 12): Johan Cruyff has launched a scathing attack on Holland's performance in their 1-0 defeat to Spain in the World Cup final last night, slamming their "dirty" tactics and their style of "anti-football".

Cruyff was at the heart of the Holland team that earned a reputation of playing Total Football in the 1970s, and the pioneer of the style that earned the Dutch the reputation of being a joy to watch. The current Holland team played in a style that was the antithesis of that last night and a disappointed Cruyff admits it saddened him to witness their thuggery.

"On Thursday they asked me from Holland, 'Can we play like Inter? Can we stop Spain in the same way Mourinho eliminated Barca?'" Cruyff told El Periodico, in reference to the way Internazionale defended their way to a Champions League semi-final victory over Barcelona.

"I said no, no way at all. I said no, not because I hate this style — I said no because I thought that my country wouldn't dare to, and would never renounce their style. I said no because, without having great players like those of the past, the team have their own style... It hurts me that I was wrong in my disagreement, that instead Holland chose an ugly path to aim for the title.

"This ugly, vulgar, hard, hermetic, hardly eye-catching, hardly football style; yes, it served the Dutch to unsettle Spain. If with this they got satisfaction, fine, but they ended up losing. They were playing anti-football."

THE GUARDIAN
If the Netherlands lost despite trying their best to attack the opposing net instead of the opposing players, I might feel more sympathy for them being third-time unlucky. But as it stands, they played a very ugly match. It would have been a chilling night for football had Netherlands won on Sunday; it would have been a triumph of bitter cynicism over idealism: Holland betray tradition in defeat to Spain (The Telegraph)

"It was impossible not to feel sympathy for Webb, having to deal with van Bommel's appalling attitude, which had so evidently rubbed off on his teammates that even Robin van Persie had been booked within minutes for booting Sergio Busquets on the knee. Talk about setting the tone.

Yes, Spain were no angels too, and ended up with five bookings but don't be fooled by that. Just remember van Bommel scything through Iniesta, before getting to his feet and muscling past the unhappy Webb like a strutting hit-man, seemingly daring him to get out his book — which he did — and you have the true picture of the game.

Van Bommel would not let up, He was malice personified. Even in the semi-final against Uruguay, it had been a hell of a joke that his only yellow card had come, not for his ugly challenge on Walter Gargano, but for a late episode of kicking the ball away.

That was like getting Al Capone on tax evasion.
"
=================

Still, I guess fans and footballers alike need time to vent. Just as England was consumed by an orgy of petulance after its team's early exit, the Oranje and their admirers need time to settle down before they, hopefully, come back to their senses.

In the meantime, lighter news.

Paul the psychic octopus set to retire
Quote:
Oberhausen, Germany (July 12): Paul the psychic octopus, who has become one of the stars of the World Cup by correctly predicting the outcome of as many World Cup matches as he has legs, is going to retire.

The invertebrate will retire after prediciting all of Germany's World Cup results correctly as well as that of the final between Spain and Holland. The news will come as a shock to many people who have won up to half a million pounds between them during the tournament by placing bets based on the octopus's predictions.

"He is retiring and says thank you to the whole world. It was a great World Cup," Ms Tanja Munzig, a spokeswoman for the Sea Life aquarium in Oberhausen, said. "He will do what he likes to do best: Play with his handlers and delight children who come visit to him."

Paul made one final appearance today, when aquarium employees presented the octopus with a golden cup. However, though the cup was garnished with mussels, Paul ignored it as it was lowered into his tank.

In the meantime, Spanish businessmen are launching an audacious €38,000 (US$48,000) bid to bring the octopus to Spain and rename him Paulo, using him as a mascot at a major food event. Bookmakers from around the world have also expressed an interest in buying the octopus from the Ouberhausen Sea Life Centre, with marketing experts predicting he would be a big hit with advertisers.

THE TELEGRAPH
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Old 2010-07-12, 13:11   Link #3003
justavisitor
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I don't see too much of a problem for teams playing ugly/dirty football...football is a contact sport after all, plus, in theory, a team will win by default if too many men from the other team get sent off...so teams know there is a price for playing ugly...

However, just because a team is playing dirty doesn't mean the referee has the right to make a wrong call...missing that obvious corner kick just before the decisive goal, plus Inestia should have got at least a yellow card for hitting the holland player in the second half..etc..those poor decisions did change the game somewhat

Just wondering, can we use robot as a referee?? ..or just let referee sit in the monitor room and make the decision from the room instead, since we have so many cameras from different angles already
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Old 2010-07-12, 13:57   Link #3004
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Paul the psychic octopus set to retire

Quote:
In the meantime, Spanish businessmen are launching an audacious 38,000 (US$48,000) bid to bring the octopus to Spain and rename him Paulo, using him as a mascot at a major food event. Bookmakers from around the world have also expressed an interest in buying the octopus from the Ouberhausen Sea Life Centre, with marketing experts predicting he would be a big hit with advertisers.
A living one or a ball-shaped one covered in batter?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:35   Link #3005
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Indeed. The people who still complain about the refereeing are, to me, the epitome of sore losers: Unapologetic Dutch blame Webb (Eurosport)
"Dutch coach Bert van Marwijk made no apologies after his team used rough-arm tactics in an attempt to knock Spain out of their stride in a scrappy, niggly World Cup final while Dirk Kuyt and Arjen Robben pointed the finger of blame at English referee Howard Webb."
Van Marwijk was correct in his assessment. Playing hard negated Spain's combination football completely. His side had several chances to win the game by using a more aggressive form of Inters tactic against Barca. We saw what happened if you allow Spain to control the game in the match against Germany. Van Marwijk had only one mission: To win the cup and he almost did. His only error is that he didn't win.

It's telling that both the Dutch and Spanish media agreed on one point, be it for different reasons: Webb was rubbish. British media gave him so more credit but were far from praising him on the whole. In the end it's just a matter of perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Oh, really? Then I guess retired footballer Johan Cruyff should go ahead and surrender Dutch citizenship, for disagreeing — emphatically — with what he saw on Sunday night.

Cruyff hits out at 'anti-football' Holland
Cruyff gave this interview to a Catalan newspaper El Periodico. He lives in Spain and he isn't going to burn down the Spanish team as it is pretty much Barca, the club that carries his legacy. Quite likely that the article was spiced up a bit. In the Dutch media he was far more diplomatic before that interview, while critical of the hard play, he also praised Van Marwijk for reaching the finals by making the team perform at it's very limits. He also stated that the Netherlands could have easily won the game if they had been a bit more lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
If the Netherlands lost despite trying their best to attack the opposing net instead of the opposing players, I might feel more sympathy for them being third-time unlucky. But as it stands, they played a very ugly match. It would have been a chilling night for football had Netherlands won on Sunday; it would have been a triumph of bitter cynicism over idealism: Holland betray tradition in defeat to Spain (The Telegraph)
Too bad it's an emotional and sensationalist article based on complete ignorance of Dutch football tradition. There is more then one school of football in the Netherlands. Total football and the attacking style originate from Michel's and Cruijfs Ajax. Who have long since abandoned it although they still play in an attacking style.

However Van Marwijk is a former Feyenoord coach. A team known for it's cup fighting mentality, unity, hard working ethos and ruthless defenders. They were also the first Dutch club to win a European cup. This team certainly fits that tradition. What is also often forgotten is that Cruyff's '74 total football squad also carried a number of very hard players that could soften up an opponent or lock a game after scoring. But people only like to remember the pretty parts of that campaign. The only "nice" squad was the 94/98 squad that played beautiful football and went down to Brazil, twice.


I don't see this idealism/cynicism difference. Both sides used everything they had to win. Spain main skill is that it can starve it's opponents of possession due to a a unique advantage of having 2/3 of their team playing at one club. Making their side more organized then other national sides. To overcome that advantage an opponent either has to go all out defense or press hard in combination with physical play. Neither tactic is pretty.

To quote Rinus Michels, the inventor of total football:

"Football is war"

and everything is fair in love and war.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:17   Link #3006
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
And btw, those who thought 'good riddance' to the elephants (vuvus), S. America will be just as loud.
wat

Do you really think that? Vuvuzelas don't exist here. Yeah we have cornets and stuff but not nearly as loud as the ones in South Africa, and most people don't even bother with them.

Here you can see, in a standard club match, that there's more singing than anything else, other than a band drum being played in the background.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:28   Link #3007
Vexx
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
wat

Do you really think that? Vuvuzelas don't exist here. Yeah we have cornets and stuff but not nearly as loud as the ones in South Africa, and most people don't even bother with them.

Here you can see, in a standard club match, that there's more singing than anything else, other than a band drum being played in the background.
The *singing* is great... I love it when futbol fans sing their various anthems at games with drums keeping the beat if necessary. The vuvuzelas aren't bad sporadically used (I like to use them to sound "Viking horn calls") but the incessant and lethal levels of noise at the SA games... anyone with a clue was wearing earplugs.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:34   Link #3008
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One of the Argentinian journalists actually suggested that some of the sound was played from the stadium's speakers since he saw nobody around him blowing anything but the noise was still jarring, though... you have to wonder.

The fact of the matter is that those plastic things were sold by the millions, so...
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:39   Link #3009
Bri
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Speaking of supporters cheering and singing: wouldn't mind seeing this kind of choreography and fan participation at the next world cup. Awesome display by these Korean kids cheering for their teams.

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Old 2010-07-12, 17:41   Link #3010
WanderingKnight
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Not really... feels more like an army than a demonstration of emotion. I wouldn't mind it if they were in a separate section, but real fans will never do that.

Since you brought up the example of an Asian team, here are the Vegalta (wtf?) Sendai supporters:

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Old 2010-07-12, 18:10   Link #3011
Bri
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^
They look well organized and for a small group they do deliver a lot of volume. Impressive.
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Old 2010-07-12, 18:25   Link #3012
Last Sinner
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So...what are people watching next?

I might catch some of the Tour de France.
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Old 2010-07-12, 18:27   Link #3013
CuXe
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Speaking of supporters cheering and singing: wouldn't mind seeing this kind of choreography and fan participation at the next world cup. Awesome display by these Korean kids cheering for their teams.

Freaking awesome!
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Old 2010-07-12, 19:15   Link #3014
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Speaking of supporters cheering and singing: wouldn't mind seeing this kind of choreography and fan participation at the next world cup. Awesome display by these Korean kids cheering for their teams.

This is one reason the amazing thing about Japanese or Korean baseball games is not what happens on the field. And no, they're not really automatons about it, they really get into the display emotionally.

However, this video shows the equivalent of the "cheering team" or what you see in universities as pep squads and such. My son (in his university's band) will often be in "bandlet" gigs for basketball, etc and the cheer squad has set routines for different songs they play.

Closest example I can think of to this militarism though in the US might be Texas A&M in the 1980s.... being a fan in that crowd took as much prep as the team's preparation.
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Old 2010-07-12, 19:44   Link #3015
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
^
They look well organized and for a small group they do deliver a lot of volume. Impressive.
Japanese supporters are the closest thing I could find to South American ones. I always found Europeans extremely lacking in that respect. They're all just sitting there... doing nothing.

Compare that to this:



and then this:

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Old 2010-07-12, 23:19   Link #3016
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
A living one or a ball-shaped one covered in batter?
Oh noes... Paul, it's a trap!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
"Football is war"
Sure. And it's also a sport. Sport, especially contact sport, involves aggression, no argument, but when fouls are very literally fouls, something's wrong. Just saying, that's all.

And Spain's passing game isn't nearly as formidable as people are making it out to be. They were prevented from playing their normal style by the Paraguayans, and the South Americans did not have to resort to anywhere near as much violence to achieve that disruption.

And for all the complaints about Spain's possession-based approach, it's really no more than a complete, team-oriented way to play football. The Germans played the same way, but with a crucial difference: They had a cutting edge that Spain lacked. Spain, on the other hand, were largely toothless without Villa, that I'd readily concede.

In the end, I guess, it boils down simply to personal preferences over the kind of football we enjoy. Amusingly, it occured to me that these could be roughly classified into the "colour pie" devised for Magic: The Gathering, the collectible-card game.

Blue: The colour of control; winning by slowly throttling your opponent's every option. Spain.

Black: The colour of ambition, where the ends justify the means. Netherlands.

Red: The colour of haste. Win fast or lose. Argentina.

Green: The colour of sheer might. Colossal strength trampling over hapless opponents. Hmm... Brazil, perhaps?

White: The colour of protection and teamwork, of individuals who become a collective threat by working together. Germany.


No prizes for guessing which is my preferred colour for the card game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
So...what are people watching next?

I might catch some of the Tour de France.
Formula One. The British grand prix has just concluded, with Webber taking the top prize. McLaren's looking dominant this season and Red Bull are going to have to fight hard to catch up. I'm looking forward to the Singapore GP because, at last (whoopee), I have tickets.
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Old 2010-07-13, 00:36   Link #3017
Vexx
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For me? No sports at all for a while. I take a 'sport' break at the end of every World Cup and catch up on my own forms of games and activities.
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Old 2010-07-13, 01:35   Link #3018
solomon
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There are NON American football type sports?
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Old 2010-07-13, 02:30   Link #3019
Evil Rick
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It's time for my sport hibernation. I'll come back to the soccer feeber 'till Brazil 2014, see you all thill then.
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Old 2010-07-13, 06:49   Link #3020
Sheba
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And last, a result of a survey by a famous french daily newpaper

Quote:

"What will you remember 2010 FIFA World Cup for?
Paul the Octopus 33.5%
Spain crowned as champion 22.6%
Les Bleus Fiasco 22.4%
Germany's beautiful play 12.6%
Uruguay's road 5.3%
The organization 3.7%"
So yeah, for roughly 1/3 of the frenchmen who answered, an octopus hijacked the spotlight and frenchmen loved him for it.
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