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Old 2010-06-07, 20:37   Link #1
thevil1
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Torrents (illegal/legal)

Feel free to lock this topic if it's in the wrong place, I just wasn't quite sure where to ask it.

OK with that said, my question is:
What makes Anime Torrents legal to download?

(Again, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place, or if this topic has already been made.)
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Old 2010-06-07, 20:59   Link #2
felix
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Torrents are not illegal. Their contents are the only subject of debate.

Do you get your torrents from the producer of the content?
The answer is typically "no" for anime ones, hence they are illegal.

Also, read this: http://wiki.animesuki.com/wiki/Licensed_anime
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Old 2010-06-07, 21:37   Link #3
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It's not legal to download fansubs. They aren't licensed here, true, but that doesn't make them free. However, most companies overlook this sort of behavior because without fansubs, awareness for their series would likely not exist in this country, since we don't get the shows on broadcast or cable.

Some companies get their panties in a wad and bombard fansubbers with C&D notices. Some fansubbers listen to these. Others don't.

Truthfully, downloading fansubs is no more legal than downloading MP3s. If it offends your moral sensibilities to do so, then you can legally watch anime for free (albeit at very low quality) on Crunchyroll, assuming their website doesn't hate your computer and wants it to die in a hotel fire. Hulu and Funimation's website are other legitimate streaming options.

Yeah, I download fansubs, and a lot of other things, too. I also pay for most of it, but DRM is starting to get to the point where I'm wanting to just torrent crap and not give those motherfuckers a single cent. I really want to play Mass Effect, but it's got SecurROM. That shit is not cool. Thank god for the Steam version, but I hafta wait till school starts again because my internets aren't fast enough to download 7 gigs in under 3 weeks.
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Old 2010-06-07, 22:33   Link #4
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The only possible way anime torrents could be legal is if you have explicit permission from the owner of said anime's copyright holder(s) to download the anime, and if the distributor decides to transfer the anime to you by way of torrenting. A very unlikely case, since torrents aren't 100% secure and private compared to DDLs and members-only streaming.
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Old 2010-06-08, 06:02   Link #5
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Why did you assume it's legal in the first place?
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Old 2010-06-08, 07:12   Link #6
thevil1
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I was never compleatley sure. I knew that most fan subbed content arent licensed in all contries. Thus I had the question of that content being legal for download in that unlicensed contrie.
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Old 2010-06-08, 08:46   Link #7
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The practice of fansubbing is illegal once uploaded as well.
"Did we seek permission from the creators and studios in Japan to add subtitles to it?"
"No"
Aparently in the eyes of the law, the right to translate a piece of work belongs to the owner, not us fans
And aparently, 'just adding subtitles' was enough for Japanese companies to kick up a fuss back in 2005 in the UK when our largest anime convention (only a mere 1000 people) caught their attention as popularity began to grow.
So no more fansubs at UK anime cons since then.

Many drama fansubs now release the subs in a seperate timed text file somewhere else for users to download and watch on their computers, rather than encoding it.
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Old 2010-06-08, 10:21   Link #8
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Torrents are legal, although certain corporations and protection rackets would rather they not be. Fansubbing? I'm going to say legal.

Copyright law in the US derives from the Constitution, which is the highest law in the land; or at least, in the US. The specific law is in Article I, section 8 of the Constitution:

"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

I've highlighted some things because when Copyright Law was initially introduced, it was 14 years, with the option to buy 14 more years. So 28 years max, and this was back when it took quite awhile to bring your new idea to market. Technology has progressed since then, and it's far easier to create something and get it to people, often times with a few months to a few weeks. What's copyright law now?

Life + 70 years.

The initial idea behind copyright law, was to encourage people to create. Once an idea escapes, anyone can naturally copy it, so the contract was "We, the people, will forgo our natural right to copy, so that you can profit off your idea, in the hopes that you will create more. But only for a limited time, then it passes into public domain."

Public domain is dead, because hardly anything enters it anymore. Anytime Steamboat Willie(Mickey Mouse's first cartoon) gets close to expiring, Disney and other corporations buy copyright extensions from Congress. Where is the incentive for someone to create if their grandchildren can profit off something they wrote 100 years ago? "Happy Birthday to You" is still under copyright.

If a song can be written when I am born, and yet I die before it enters public domain, then it isn't limited times! It's essentially unlimited, as far as the average person is concerned, and thus illegal according to the constitution.

Also, every new artistic work that is created, is based off something that came before; "we stand on the shoulders of giants." But if everything is copyrighted, nothing new can be created without infringing, and we are getting there. People sue all the time because one idea seems a bit close to another idea. It's a chilling effect. So far from "progressing the arts" it actually retards it; again, this makes current copyright law illegal under the Constitution.

TL;DR summary: torrent and pirate all you want, because copyright is dead. That's the main reason piracy is growing, because the average person knows copyright law is bunk, and has lost all respect for it. You'll have to fight for your rights if they come after you, though.

Only works in America, consult your local laws. But they can't stop it, and a law is dead in the water, if everyone is doing it. Torrent and pirate away!
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Old 2010-06-08, 10:36   Link #9
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Yes torrents are legal, but you're still going to hell for using them...(don't worry, the Lord of Darkness has some killer service plans, and AT&T always works...though there are no decent internet sites, and the only people you can call are douches...)

Last edited by james0246; 2010-06-08 at 10:50.
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Old 2010-06-08, 10:49   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo
Public domain is dead, because hardly anything enters it anymore.
Plenty of useful things enter public domain. The works of many authors and composers are already in public domain and put to good use online (IMSLP is one great example).
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Old 2010-06-08, 10:55   Link #11
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My policy is, if anime in question will never be released in my country, I'll torrent away all I want. If it's programmed to air or has aired (like,say, the first season of One Piece or Dragonball up to fat Buu), I'll buy the video tapes DVDs up to where the companies paid for rights and aired the series in question (I fail to remember ONE anime or cartoon that has been shown in its entirety), and torrent the rest because I hate half-aired stories the most.
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Old 2010-06-08, 10:59   Link #12
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Torrents are legal, although certain corporations and protection rackets would rather they not be. Fansubbing? I'm going to say legal.

Copyright law in the US derives from the Constitution, which is the highest law in the land; or at least, in the US. The specific law is in Article I, section 8 of the Constitution:

"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

I've highlighted some things because when Copyright Law was initially introduced, it was 14 years, with the option to buy 14 more years. So 28 years max, and this was back when it took quite awhile to bring your new idea to market. Technology has progressed since then, and it's far easier to create something and get it to people, often times with a few months to a few weeks. What's copyright law now?

Life + 70 years.

The initial idea behind copyright law, was to encourage people to create. Once an idea escapes, anyone can naturally copy it, so the contract was "We, the people, will forgo our natural right to copy, so that you can profit off your idea, in the hopes that you will create more. But only for a limited time, then it passes into public domain."

Public domain is dead, because hardly anything enters it anymore. Anytime Steamboat Willie(Mickey Mouse's first cartoon) gets close to expiring, Disney and other corporations buy copyright extensions from Congress. Where is the incentive for someone to create if their grandchildren can profit off something they wrote 100 years ago? "Happy Birthday to You" is still under copyright.

If a song can be written when I am born, and yet I die before it enters public domain, then it isn't limited times! It's essentially unlimited, as far as the average person is concerned, and thus illegal according to the constitution.

Also, every new artistic work that is created, is based off something that came before; "we stand on the shoulders of giants." But if everything is copyrighted, nothing new can be created without infringing, and we are getting there. People sue all the time because one idea seems a bit close to another idea. It's a chilling effect. So far from "progressing the arts" it actually retards it; again, this makes current copyright law illegal under the Constitution.

TL;DR summary: torrent and pirate all you want, because copyright is dead. That's the main reason piracy is growing, because the average person knows copyright law is bunk, and has lost all respect for it. You'll have to fight for your rights if they come after you, though.

Only works in America, consult your local laws. But they can't stop it, and a law is dead in the water, if everyone is doing it. Torrent and pirate away!
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Old 2010-06-08, 11:12   Link #13
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Also, every new artistic work that is created, is based off something that came before; "we stand on the shoulders of giants." But if everything is copyrighted, nothing new can be created without infringing, and we are getting there. People sue all the time because one idea seems a bit close to another idea. It's a chilling effect. So far from "progressing the arts" it actually retards it; again, this makes current copyright law illegal under the Constitution.
Unless I'm mistaken I think I heard something about emulating being okey and only blatant copy being a nono.

Nicely worded post, btw.
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Old 2010-06-08, 11:16   Link #14
synaesthetic
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There's been a lot of stupid lawsuits recently in which Company A will sue Company B over a creative work that is somewhat similar or in a way related to/based on something Company A owns the copyright to (i.e. the whole Guitar Hero nonsense).

It's a new form of competition in this "crony capitalism" that runs America. Unlike actual capitalism, in which you compete by making your product better/faster/cheaper, in America, you compete by whining and crying to your bribed politicians until they pass a law deleterious to your competitiors and beneficial to you. And sue, sue, sue.
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Old 2010-06-08, 13:20   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Unless I'm mistaken I think I heard something about emulating being okey and only blatant copy being a nono.

Nicely worded post, btw.
Thanks, and emulating is technically illegal, too. The owner hasn't given you permission to do it. But as I said, copyright law is bunk, so I, and many billions of people ignore it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
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Haha, no newsletter, but I'd suggest paying attention to slashdot.org. They have articles on copyright law around the world quite often, and make many good points on what you can do (hint: join the pirate party forming in your country).

I will toss this out for interesting reading if the subject interests you. If you can parse the old English, Lord Thomas Babington Macaulay gave a speech on February 5th, 1841 to the UK House of Commons, in which he predicted this very situation if stronger copyright law were to pass: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Copyri...%28Macaulay%29

A snippet:

"I will only say this, that if the measure before us should pass, and should produce one-tenth part of the evil which it is calculated to produce, and which I fully expect it to produce, there will soon be a remedy, though of a very objectionable kind. Just as the absurd acts which prohibited the sale of game were virtually repealed by the poacher, just as many absurd revenue acts have been virtually repealed by the smuggler, so will this law be virtually repealed by piratical booksellers. At present the holder of copyright has the public feeling on his side. Those who invade copyright are regarded as knaves who take the bread out of the mouths of deserving men. Everybody is well pleased to see them restrained by the law, and compelled to refund their ill-gotten gains. No tradesman of good repute will have anything to do with such disgraceful transactions. Pass this law: and that feeling is at an end. Men very different from the present race of piratical booksellers will soon infringe this intolerable monopoly. Great masses of capital will be constantly employed in the violation of the law. Every art will be employed to evade legal pursuit; and the whole nation will be in the plot."
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Old 2010-06-08, 13:26   Link #16
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Lots of good stuff...
This.

The copyright holders have zero intention of upholding their end of the copyright bargain. All they want is to hold works and get paid for them, over and over forever. They have zero incentive to ever hand anything back after their 'limited term' exclusive license has expired, so make sure they never do. I don't think its reasonable for your children to continue to profit off something you did. Nevermind that the biggest screamers are just copyright holders and themselves create nothing at all.

Go back to the original short term exclusive license and people might start caring. But currently the public domain is just being screwed. Copyright law as it exists now doesn't serve the general good as it should do.

Not to mention the (what I consider) utter immorality of copyright and patents on medicine and plants (see Monsanto). That should be plain illegal.
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:19   Link #17
felix
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Thanks, and emulating is technically illegal, too. The owner hasn't given you permission to do it. But as I said, copyright law is bunk, so I, and many billions of people ignore it.
I was referring to the "fair use" exception when I was talking about emulation.
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:27   Link #18
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At one point in America, consuming and distributing alcohol was illegal as well. We see how well that fared. Couple that with the ever more ridiculous expansion and extension of copyright and the attempts to criminalize what is a *civil* issue -- and you have millions of scofflaws. Nice job (sarcasm) as that reduces the respect for all laws and the rule-of-law.

With the cancerous expansion of laws like the DMCA, etc., the average American commits several illegal acts a day - some felonies. So who's off-base here, the average American or the corporations/government?
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:38   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
At one point in America, consuming and distributing alcohol was illegal as well. We see how well that fared. Couple that with the ever more ridiculous expansion and extension of copyright and the attempts to criminalize what is a *civil* issue -- and you have millions of scofflaws. Nice job (sarcasm) as that reduces the respect for all laws and the rule-of-law.

With the cancerous expansion of laws like the DMCA, etc., the average American commits several illegal acts a day - some felonies. So who's off-base here, the average American or the corporations/government?
+1

The answer to this is so obvious, of course! After all, a "consumer" is supposed to just shut up, take what we want to give them and give us all their money, right? I mean, we, the record labels, publishers and content gateways control the whole show, so we must be right.

I mean, can you believe those uppity "consumers," wanting fair pricing and creative innovation? They're saying they're tired of draconian, restrictive DRM schemes and worthless shovelware titles! What arrogance! They even want the original authors to get decently paid for their work! Scandalous, isn't it?

/sarcasmmode

Somewhere along the line these idiots forgot that we, the customer, pay their salaries.
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Old 2010-06-08, 17:47   Link #20
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IMO, legal issues and laws are just guidelines for society to follow. You can break any rule you want as long as you don't get caught.

C'mon, I went clubbing before and have smelt and seen people smoke all sorts of stuff (sometimes I suspect them to be heroin) outback when accompanying my friends for their smokes (I don't smoke btw). And heroin is supposed to be illegal, anyone caught with more than 100g here will be sentenced to death.

These people are playing with the legal system under a part which is tightly monitored. Filesharing is difficult to monitor, and copyright laws, acts and recognition differ from one country to another and sometimes may contradict with privacy protection codes. Legal or not, there is still a way out, just don't increase your chances of getting caught by being hardcore.

Copyright, on another issue, is simply a limited end of earning your paycheck per month. When you create something like software, if you don't update it or make it good in the first place, and make it easily available, don't expect your customer to come back to you. Those sissies are just complaining about market competition when it is a naturally occurring force in the first place. Studied economics? Nope. Learned how to be a freeloader? Yes.

OT : I just realised Syn's age x2 = Vexx's age.
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