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Old 2010-06-28, 17:06   Link #361
ZGoten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuroraFlash View Post
I think that's why he desired / desires that power so much... it maybe is the only way for him to get more powerful. See it like that... Orochimaru is the paper and he can win against any rock anytime. Itachi is the scissors... the Sharingan is the scissors. Once he gets scissors he obtains the very power he was vulnerable to before and of course he is paper and scissors then... which means he can beat anything - the rock and the paper and he won't lose to scissors anymore. It's like playing Jan-Ken-Pon with two hands against an enemy with only one hand... incredible, isn't it?
Incredible indeed.^^

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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
That is if, by MS, you mean essentially every aspect of combat. If his strongest genjutsu was the body-steal jutsu then he lost to a mere sharingan genjutsu (not even MS, let alone tsukuyomi). If his strongest taijutsu was the hydra then he lost to Susanoo; well, the yata mirror and kusanagi sword would be more acurate, so that would mean Itachi's Susanoo at least. As for ninjutsu, Oro's body cloning technique was barely enough for Sasuke to escape amaterasu, and left him drained.

That is including Sasuke's fight as an example, whom I considered an empowered version of Oro, at least at the time that fight occured.

So imo Itachi had Oro completely out-classed.
Well, uh, oh, I don't want to end up in a versus discussion here.
The thing is, you are directly comparing jutsus here, but that is not how a fight works. It's not like you best fight back fire with fire, you fight it back with water. Yes, Orochimaru answered Susanoo with Hydra, but to even count that as an action of a real fight when Orochimaru was hugely handicaped is vague. The only real battle of those two we know of, took place when Orochimaru was still in Akatsuki, and he lost that battle because of the MS' Genjutsu, at least that's what was heavily implied in that scene. Also you can't judge how powerful Orochimaru's jutsus are by how well Sasuke performed them.

Fact is, again, Databook #3. Some may argue that those are no legit source of information, but I think they are. Kishimoto doesn't write numbers and letters in there just for fun. And guess who's there on #1 of known overall strength among Jiraiya and Itachi? Completely out-classed is something different.
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Last edited by ZGoten; 2010-06-28 at 17:18.
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Old 2010-06-28, 18:07   Link #362
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You mean the graphs with their strengths and weaknesses? Afaik each of those stats are meant to represent a characters' affinity in regards to the rest of their stats, and not meant to be compared with the stats from other character's graphs. I could be wrong, though. I've seen some people reading them like I mentioned, while others compare the graphs between different characters as an indication of who is stronger. I have no doubt those numbers are acurately representative, but as I said, I'm not too sure how the graphs are supposed to be read.

Unless you weren't refering to the graphs.

Besides, it's hard to gauge Oro's strength. His fight with Sandaime was his peak, I think. But would you include his edo tensei summons as his own strenth?

Anyway, you're right. This isn't a vs discussion so it's pointless to compare strengths and weaknesses. I only wanted to point out that Oro never displayed any abilities that could overcome Itachi's techniques outright. So to say that MS is what Oro never managed to get around, which somewhat implies that his abilities could exceed Itachi's in other areas, is something we have no proof of. And my personal opinion is that it's unlikely.
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Old 2010-06-28, 18:34   Link #363
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^Well to be honest, I don't know how to exactly read those graphs either, but they have the same sum of points, which has got to mean something along the line of equality.

I personally would include edo tensei summons as the summoners own strength, since it seems to be one of the hardest techniques to learn, but that's really debatable, and we know too little about the jutsu to really debate it.

Yes, I do think there is at least one area in which Orochimaru surpasses Itachi by a great deal, and that is stamina. His stamina would also enable him to compensate his possible lack of single powerful ninjutsus like Amaterasu, by the sheer amount of jutsus he can use. He also proved to be very effective at taijutsu against Sandaime. To come to a close, I'd say that they both are about equal in at least ninjutsu and intelligence. Orochimaru has the upper hand in stamina, but with Tsukuyomi, Itachi can just totally ignore that fact.

However, this is just my try of making sense out of the databook and combine it with my fangirlish love.^^
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Old 2010-06-28, 18:48   Link #364
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Good point about the stamina. Even if Itachi had considerable stamina himself, his techniques consumed enormous ammounts of chakra. If we had the chance to see more Oro vs Itachi after he came out of Sasuke's body it could have turned out pretty interesting, but the Yata mirror proved to be a little too hax.
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Old 2010-06-28, 18:56   Link #365
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Well, Itachi couldn't switch bodies either. He was caged inside his own ill body, slowly rotting away by a disease, losing his eyesight because he used his oh-so-special powers too much... he overused them in an already weakened state.
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Old 2010-06-28, 21:39   Link #366
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^he could kill off sasuke to get back his health and a power boost, but he gives himself up for sasuke
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Old 2010-06-28, 21:41   Link #367
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Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
The final battle in the Lord of the Rings isn't against Sauron, it's against some "bad" Hobbits and Men who have industrialized The Shire by the time Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin come back home. (And instead of massive armies, it mostly involves a couple dozen Hobbits with farm implements.)
Yeah, and guess what part was cut from the movies?

For the record, as much Peter Jackson tried to remain faithful to the books the Scouring of the Shire was one of the parts he felt couldn't really fit because it didn't feel relevant. This is because in truth the whole scene was part of LOTR's very, very long epilogue. And that's really my point. I want Naruto vs. Sasuke to feel like part of the story and not just a wrap up.

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The final battle isn't always the Big Bad. It can very well be because of something much closer to home. Madara is the true, evil villain trying to control the world with a grand plot, and he's also part of the old generation.
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The highest stakes as far as the world is concerned isn't always the highest stake characters-wise. Ie, Kishimoto could play it like Scryed.
It's true that the story doesn't have to end with the Big Bad but I think it's still the exception rather than the rule. But when the Big Bad is defeated, it feels like the story has been told. Everything after that feels like it's wrapping up loose ends, it feels like epilogue. Madara might be defeated before Sasuke faces Naruto but if the war is over and the world is saved, what's really left? Sasuke and Naruto fight, Sasuke gets redeemed and...?

Whereas if Madara still left as an obstacle, then Naruto vs. Sasuke would actually feels like it had some purpose rather than just the obligatory showdown. What's more, it gives Sasuke a chance to actually earn his redemption instead of just being accepted because that's what supposed to happen.

Anyways, it could go either way at this point I suppose....

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How do you think he killed the Konoha ninja who killed his parents?
*grumble**mumble*... I forgot that, since it was mentioned so much later than when he was shown saving Yahiko. Yep, Johnny was right.

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Yes, I do think there is at least one area in which Orochimaru surpasses Itachi by a great deal, and that is stamina. His stamina would also enable him to compensate his possible lack of single powerful ninjutsus like Amaterasu, by the sheer amount of jutsus he can use.
Yeah, I think according to the databook Itachi has one of the lowest stamina ratings of any character. Of course, his other stats are so stacked he had to be given some weakness
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Old 2010-06-29, 04:21   Link #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
It's true that the story doesn't have to end with the Big Bad but I think it's still the exception rather than the rule. But when the Big Bad is defeated, it feels like the story has been told. Everything after that feels like it's wrapping up loose ends, it feels like epilogue. Madara might be defeated before Sasuke faces Naruto but if the war is over and the world is saved, what's really left? Sasuke and Naruto fight, Sasuke gets redeemed and...?

Whereas if Madara still left as an obstacle, then Naruto vs. Sasuke would actually feels like it had some purpose rather than just the obligatory showdown. What's more, it gives Sasuke a chance to actually earn his redemption instead of just being accepted because that's what supposed to happen.

Anyways, it could go either way at this point I suppose....
The Affinities chapter gives a big hint that Naruto and Sasuke's elemental affinities are 'compatible' with each other (fire burns stronger in the wind), so it's more than likely they'll end up working together at the end to take down someone they wouldn't be able to beat on their own.

I don't think Kishi will forget his teamwork motif.
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Old 2010-06-29, 11:27   Link #369
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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
The Affinities chapter gives a big hint that Naruto and Sasuke's elemental affinities are 'compatible' with each other (fire burns stronger in the wind), so it's more than likely they'll end up working together at the end to take down someone they wouldn't be able to beat on their own.

I don't think Kishi will forget his teamwork motif.
Umm...this is a good prediction Kakashi, though i have to admit that I wish this was not the case. I think loyalty can only take you so far and I think that Naruto should about pass that point. Sasuke at this point doesn't deserved to be saved in my opinion. He doesn't deserve redemption for his acts. I guess I advocate justice vs. mercy argument. Justice cannot rob mercy and Sasuke just doesn't deserve mercy because he is the author of his own actions. Its a like a women suffering an abusive husband. At some point you don't try to "fix" him and he doesn't deserve forgiveness even if he says sorry. At some point you just cut your loses. It does seem that Naruto and Sasuke will team up at some point but one and/or both need to die in my opinion to really drive the story home.
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Old 2010-06-29, 11:40   Link #370
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Considering that Naruto said that next time Sasuke and him face they will both die then it is quite likely that they work together to take down someone bigger than them both and die. In their death Naruto is made 7th Hokage and Sasuke redeemed
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:35   Link #371
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no chapter 500 spoilers? I hope they do something special since this 'll be the best number they 'll ever get at.. Unless they make it till a 1000.. which they won't lol... so 500 is the most beautiful number
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:28   Link #372
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Considering that Naruto said that next time Sasuke and him face they will both die then it is quite likely that they work together to take down someone bigger than them both and die. In their death Naruto is made 7th Hokage and Sasuke redeemed
You might not want to hear it, but I think it's safer to say Sasuke dies the Darth Vader, being redeemed after having died while Naruto becomes the 6th Hokage (Danzou has no head carved into the rocks of Konoha, he was only a substitute Hokage) and the next generation and the will of fire are entrusted to Naruto. In the final episode, years will have passed. Naruto will stand in front of the headstone of the fallen heroes of Konoha, praying for Sasuke.

From here on, I can think of various possibilities.

He could actually turn around and we would see the Sharingan... something about being Sasuke's eyes and stuff...

He could be late for a tournament , then have an interesting fight with the reborn Nagato and leave the village entrusting the title of the 7th Hokage to Konohamaru...


...no more ideas.
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:56   Link #373
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Sasuke has to either die or become a loner and be erased from all history books or this manga won't end well.
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Old 2010-06-30, 08:14   Link #374
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Chapter 500 discussion thread has been opened....
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