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Old 2012-07-05, 16:36   Link #4581
Sommer
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
He has been in love with her since Wing TV and was angry when she was nearly killed while everyone else he was "Eh" when they suppoedly died a number of times. The guy did move in with her for a time, and stayed with her after EW, and entrusted all his secrets to her - even trusting her with the secret Deathscythe Hell and had her help in making it. He even abandoned his happy life with Hilde, later in Wing TVm because he was worried she would get dragged in and used as an incentive to get him to cooperate.

The endings showed him being happy with Hilde and going on dates with her as well. If he wasn't crazy about her he would have dropped her during the time skip, or not have kept moving back in with her when the fighting died down, between Wing TV and EW. After all Hilde was his lover and the only one waiting for him at their home after all the fighting had ended. It's strange that FT would drop that and make hm treat Hilde so badly or turn Hilde into a very angry woman when he used to always show affection towards her and she was always happy around him.
I still fail to see their relatationship as romantic and even if they were dating that donīt mean they are gonna marry and have a bajillion of babies, christ, how many people you know that end marring their teenager crush? I never wanted Hilde to marry Duo she is pretty cool, but when she is with him she become bland and passive, I fucking hate that part when he was all "stay in the house and
make me a steak " , what a prick. Iīm the only one who dont see Duo as the perfect Gary-stu boyfriend?
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Old 2012-07-06, 01:18   Link #4582
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Have you ever seriously been in love before? This isn't a fling. If she was just a fling Duo wouldn't have kept returning to her after he was done fighting or moving on with her after EW ended. Also these aren't typical teenagers. Duo was a Gundam pilot and Hilde was in the military, they aren't just some high school students bored on life. Their lives were plenty exciting and they had to grow up much earlier than anyone else around their age.

You simply can't compare a standard teenage fling over how serious Duo was with Hilde. Or the fact that the end of EW showed them being the strongest relationship while those like Heero and Relena were left in limbo. Strange how they decided to dismantle the most stable relationship while keeping the whole Heero and Relena relationship intact despite it being severely unstable. Hell, if anyone was going to have issues it would have been Wufei yet compared to the rest of the cast he somehow didn't get screwed up in some way.

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Originally Posted by Tendou Souji View Post
Did I make it better for you by making 2 paragraphs?

I don't care about why the relationship went sour. I don't. It wasn't sudden changes. It happened over years. Years I don't care about. We've been through this before. You have a bad sense of time. Duo didn't suddenly change. We first see them years after EW when they break up. Then we advance to Duo on Mars and even more time passes. He changes as he grows. You may not like the direction he went in but I'm glad he didn't stay a happy go lucky guy.

Another thing that people need to realize is that the Wing boys weren't this tight best friends forever group. Some of them barely spent time together. Heero was the only one to spend alone time with the other 4. Duo and Trowa were never really alone. Quatre and Wufei were never really alone. Heero spent the most time with Quatre and Trowa. You can call them all "friends" but war comrades suits most of them better. They didn't seem like the type to try and keep in touch except for Quatre. Trowa was happy with his sister. Wufei went with Preventer. Quatre had to run his family's business. Heero did whatever he wanted. Duo was dealing junk it seemed. They were all in completely different places and trying to move on with their lives. I doubt they would have went out of their ways to see other unless it was absolutely needed.
It was a sudden change as far as readers are concerned but worse of all it was NEVER EXPLAINED to the viewers which is most frustrating. Kinda hard to like change when no one is told why such major changes occured in the first place. With that I end it there since I refuse to humour someone who gets their rocks off belittling others due to their inability to make a point.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2012-07-06 at 02:25.
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Old 2012-07-06, 03:30   Link #4583
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Have you ever seriously been in love before? This isn't a fling. If she was just a fling Duo wouldn't have kept returning to her after he was done fighting or moving on with her after EW ended. Also these aren't typical teenagers. Duo was a Gundam pilot and Hilde was in the military, they aren't just some high school students bored on life. Their lives were plenty exciting and they had to grow up much earlier than anyone else around their age.

You simply can't compare a standard teenage fling over how serious Duo was with Hilde. Or the fact that the end of EW showed them being the strongest relationship while those like Heero and Relena were left in limbo. Strange how they decided to dismantle the most stable relationship while keeping the whole Heero and Relena relationship intact despite it being severely unstable. Hell, if anyone was going to have issues it would have been Wufei yet compared to the rest of the cast he somehow didn't get screwed up in some way.
Letīs agree to disagree, we obviously have diferents views of what a romantic relationship is. But just because Duo is your favorite or whatever doesnīt mean that other character have to be the one with a messed life, Wufei is a warrior at heart, unlike Duo who is just a street that with a cookie cutter sob story who happen to be te pilot of Deathscyte, Wufei find peace joining the preventers because that make him useful.
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Old 2012-07-06, 04:20   Link #4584
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That's where you're wrong, Heero is my favorite Wing Boy character. The others are far below him when it comes to favorites to me. Though Duo isn't my favorite I still paid attention enough in Wing TV and EW to know that FT Duo is pretty much a new character that's just cashing in on Duo's likeness without being Duo. If Heero suffered the same mistreatment and character assassination as Duo and Relena as Hilde than FT would have been suffering through a far larger firestorm than it already does.

Duo found peace with Hilde after EW and unlike Wufei he was shown being happy and willing to move on after war with Hilde. While Wufei doesn't get that realization until after the EW events.
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Old 2012-07-06, 04:39   Link #4585
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Some people just grow up to be asses. I know plenty of people who were cool in their late teens but now are just horrible to be around, and did a complete 180 with their personality. It happens.

And I don't think a couple of seconds worth of footage is enough to base an extrapolation about the next 10 years of a character's life and outlook. I mean, it's hard to expect a happy ending for someone who calls himself the God of Death.
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Old 2012-07-06, 04:46   Link #4586
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Well yeah some people do. It's just they used the time skip as an excuse not to explain why he's an ass or why things didn't work out. We just get to FT time and Duo is a jerk. That would anger anyone if they loved a character than a new series comes out with that character that does a time skip and they can't find anything that they loved of the old character in the new version or an explanation for the sudden and vast change.
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Old 2012-07-06, 04:52   Link #4587
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I never said it was a well-written story, just that it's not completely baseless or out of left field. I think it has to do with both the Japanese beat-around-the-bush style of storytelling and Sumizawa's own inability to reconcile his ideas into something coherent. And consider how many years its been since Wing was written - obviously he's not going to remember or be able to catch every tiny detail about every single character the way rabid fans do because he probably hasn't even had a passing thought about Wing until this project started.

It honestly feels like he's just making stuff up as he goes, throwing in new "prequel information" as soon as it pops into his head.

I'm betting he's gonna pull a MGS4 and try to cram all the explanations for this crazy bullshit into the last chapter by way of nanomachine magic.
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Old 2012-07-06, 04:54   Link #4588
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It's completely out of the left field when you consider what the characters were like before the time skip than... Time skip with no explanation over why they are so vastly different other than "Time Skip" as an excuse. Or why some characters are doing things they swore never to do - Quatre. Or Noin's "Brother" that conviently appeared for FT that pretends to be her beloved husband and Zechs and Noin are totally okay with for some strange reason just so they can say "Millardo" is dead again for unneeded shock value.
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Old 2012-07-06, 10:45   Link #4589
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It's completely out of the left field when you consider what the characters were like before the time skip than... Time skip with no explanation over why they are so vastly different other than "Time Skip" as an excuse. Or why some characters are doing things they swore never to do - Quatre. Or Noin's "Brother" that conviently appeared for FT that pretends to be her beloved husband and Zechs and Noin are totally okay with for some strange reason just so they can say "Millardo" is dead again for unneeded shock value.
But Zechs isn't okay with it. Have you even read what has been translated?
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Old 2012-07-06, 13:10   Link #4590
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I never said it was a well-written story, just that it's not completely baseless or out of left field. I think it has to do with both the Japanese beat-around-the-bush style of storytelling and Sumizawa's own inability to reconcile his ideas into something coherent. And consider how many years its been since Wing was written - obviously he's not going to remember or be able to catch every tiny detail about every single character the way rabid fans do because he probably hasn't even had a passing thought about Wing until this project started.

It honestly feels like he's just making stuff up as he goes, throwing in new "prequel information" as soon as it pops into his head.
That's exactly how it feels like. He could easily buy the DVDs or find VHSs if he wanted to re-watch the series and refresh his mind about the story. He could watch the story a million times and just keep taking notes on where he should fix the plotline and where to insert new information or change the story. It's not a hard thing to do. It's just time consuming.

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But Zechs isn't okay with it. Have you even read what has been translated?
You're right. Zechs isn't ok with it... but Noin's brother has been in a very public office for years with Zech's face and name. Zechs did absolutely nothing to try and remedy this. He allowed the charade to continue. That seems rather out of character for him.

And what's with the people of Mars just letting Milliardo Peacecraft be their president? Did they all forget that Milliardo tried and almost succeed in killing everyone on earth a decade or so ago? Or did they just not care about it? Or perhaps "Milliardo" just showed up one day and said "I'm president of Mars now, F'in deal with it!"?
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Old 2012-07-06, 13:38   Link #4591
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Zechs wasn't standing by and doing nothing. He left Naina with Duo because he was going to take on the people in charge. He was in Cyrene because he was trying to get information on why his friend was killed. The citizens wanted him as president. Mars is pretty far from Earth and people were already there terraforming. That is why Zechs and Noin headed there at the end of EW. People already were in the Mars area and there were colonies there iirc. They wouldn't know of Milliardo on Mars until more Earth immigrants came over. That would be years later.

The Mars Federal Government announced 'Mars Independence' to the United Earth Sphere five years ago. [One] Martian revolution [around the sun] corresponds to about two Earth years. So in Earth time, it was about ten years ago. The Mars Federal Government representative was the first [Mars] President: Milliardo Peacecraft. He, who had been selected by the citizens of Mars, won the Mars government its autonomy [by] repeated negotiations with tenacious Earth; eluding the sabotage of the for-profit business organizations of/for Mars' development; not [resorting] to such extreme measures as a war of independence; and without spilling so much as a single drop of blood. In that [declaration of] independence, the people living on Mars pronounced themselves Martians [ALT: In that declaration of independence, [Milliardo] gave the name Martians to the people living on Mars

"Neuenheim Konzern bought it......"

"Who in Neuenheim......"

"One of the executives, I don't know who! And killing Lt. Commander Elv, that was commissioned by the guys at Neuenheim!"

Other stuff

"But the Relena Darlian inside the Little Prince [frozen capsule] is the real deal, right......"

"Well I've heard, aren't you the one who declared Mars' independence from Earth?"

"You [ought to] know that that Miliardo Peacecraft wasn't me at least...... for the most part, I'm not interested in politics."

"That's a hostage...... that's why Lucretia, no, Noin is going to the Presidential center, as a guard......"


"So he's running a profit-making business and politics simultaneously.... strictly speaking, that's unconstitutional."

"That's why he's going by the name Miliardo...... and Peacecraft for the publicity."

"Wow...... Neuenheim's up to his same old dirty tricks."

"If he really was going to take on Neuenheim Konzern, it would be too dangerous to take his daughter."
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Old 2012-07-06, 14:01   Link #4592
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Or perhaps "Milliardo" just showed up one day and said "I'm president of Mars now, F'in deal with it!"?
Why not? That's exactly what Relena did when she was the Queen of Earth. :V
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Old 2012-07-06, 23:29   Link #4593
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But Zechs isn't okay with it. Have you even read what has been translated?
He was okay enough to let it happen.
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Old 2012-07-06, 23:49   Link #4594
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He was okay enough to let it happen.
Your sarcasm isn't needed. Go read the novel instead of spewing crap. People like you who talk without reading are the reason the novel gets a worse reputation than it deserves. It is bad but all the misinformation being spread around makes it sound even worse. That TV Tropes page was full of misinformation and it was sickening because people take it as fact. What kind of attitude is that? If someone lets something happen they are suddenly okay with it? Neuenheim isn't a single person like people originally believed. It is an organization and a family. We know at least 3 people with the name. They are deeply rooted in the Mars Government. Going all gung-ho and attacking them is suicide and puts his family in danger.

We crossed the equator and went south. We'd gotten within a few dozen kilometers of the Lanagrin Republic where Hilde ran the Schbeiker orphanage. But it wasn't my reunion with good old Hilde that was running through my mind, it was Neuenheim Konzern who held the destiny of the young lady sitting behind me in his hands. Even I had cleaned up space waste as a former member of the Space Sweepers. I (intended) to have as much common sense as the next guy. I'm sure I remember Neuenheim Konzern establishing his business at the end of the AC era. The for-profit business's name meant 'New House' in German. In order to shake off the chronic economic changes [suffered by an] impoverished, exploited (little) Earth, [the Neuenheim Konzern] developed new markets of economic activity and continued supportive activities to bolster the citizens of space. At the start of the AC era, a permanent space station was completed and that serves as the archetype for the space colonies. It wouldn't be saying too much to call the Neuenheim's transference of resource satellites from the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter and using that as the construction by which to build the space colonies a great deed 221/2/13-15. So it's only natural that [he] acquired special permission [to use] basic techniques [to build colonies] and with one colony complete, his business was set up to rake in the dough hand over fist. Conversely, [his] possession of those profits, in fact, caused space developments and colony construction to be slower than usual [ALT: in fact, caused space exploitation]. Proof of this can be seen when Neuenheim Corporation's patents (vanished) around AC 130 and another explosive colony-building rush started. Neuenhiem's company, whose standard operating procedure was first and foremost what could be called (marketplace mechanism-ism) and utilitarian profit marketing, was more interested in realizing the planetary reform plan, aka the "terraforming project," then space colony development which was held up by the loss of the patents. Selected as the first target was this here Mars. The development and dome-shaped, airtight residences and releasing man-made freon to hasten atmospheric change with the greenhouse effect, even the space elevator that connected Phobos to Mars for the sake of more efficiently making use of materials, was one part of the plan. By the speech President Miliardo ((actually Dixneuf Neuenheim)), where he went so far as to pro-rate the Mars [century] calendar dating back to the completion of the para terraforming, stunk to high heaven of a substantially disagreeable company 223/3/14. Well, Mars turned out to be hard to sell. Being well accustomed to Earth, [not many were inclined] to move to Mars with its weak atmospheric pressure and only one third of Earth's gravity. It was the same reason the lunar domiciles failed. The Earth and the colonies around her were plenty. Also, Mars was physically too far away. (However,) around that time territorial disputes broke out all over and it was manufacturing mobile suits and other weapons more than space development that bore profits. At least, in my memory, resource satellite MO-VII crashing into the Argyre field in Mars' southern hemisphere- in AC 187 I think- couldn't really have been a chance occurance, could it? I'm betting Neuenhiem did that intentionally. I think it was deliberate because it was a little too convenient to the development of Mars that that satellite contained Europa algae. That was even more suspicious and crooked than me! Well, the president of the company at the time was Noble Neuenheim [#13] ((Noin's father)) and this is what he said:


"[The MO-VII falling] isn't anywhere near planetary-scale destruction. This was far more humane than those who trade in people's lives for a profit ((here, he was pointing to the Romefeller and the Barton Foundations)). Action taken for the sake of future generations will [surely lead to] the greatest well-being for the greatest number of people."

That was a typical (market mechanism-ist) way of thinking; it make me sick. There's no reason for [them?] to record these things and that was all must my conjecture but I [thought I was] right on the money. Well, the core makeup of people who came to Mars consisted mostly of liberalists who felt 'total pacifism' was too constricting and utilitarians who [had] shaken up the market cultivation: all the rest were Earth's undesirables: outlaws and hooligans. On top of that, they did just as they pleased out in the sticks away from the long arm of the law. Owning to that, to the powerless (lit: authority-less), penniless weak who hated fighting, Mars definitely became a disaster area 222/2/2-3. Particularly for women and children, that disadvantageous combination was pretty high and with riots and terrorism all over the place, there was no decrease in the numbers of war orphans or prostitutes. There was no hope and no dreams for those who weren't preferred. On the other hand, if you just had confidence in your strength and nerve, you could sing the praises of freedom 222/2/4. For a guy like me, it was my kind of place......
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Old 2012-07-07, 00:28   Link #4595
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You need to take a chill pill. Just because you accept bad writing doesn't give you the right to belittle others. This is a legit issue that many fans share, an issue that FT hasn't even attempted to correct or explain. And like I said, if you aren't going to be mature about this than I wont even bother humouring your needlessly long winded posts that never explain anything and only give excuses.
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Old 2012-07-07, 00:52   Link #4596
Tendou Souji
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You need to take a chill pill. Just because you accept bad writing doesn't give you the right to belittle others. This is a legit issue that many fans share, an issue that FT hasn't even attempted to correct or explain. And like I said, if you aren't going to be mature about this than I wont even bother humouring your needlessly long winded posts that never explain anything and only give excuses.
I posted dialog directly from the novel that address your issues. You are just whiny and like to avoid points. I directly addressed why Zechs couldn't do anything and you have no way of refuting it. You want everything explained all at once instead of letting the story develop. But to give you credit they spend too much time on the past to develop the current story. But it isn't like everything is forgotten about. Hopefully when Preventer 5 is over they can get back on track to the stuff that matters.
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:07   Link #4597
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You haven't convinced anyone why Duo's sudden and dramatic change in FT is anything but full of plot holes, bad writing, and ignores everything that made Duo, Duo.

Zechs from Wing TV and EW could have done something(Since he was shown to be "very" competent there) and wouldn't have standed for someone abusing his name since that would in turn be abusing Relena's name. Him being "powerless" and allowing this to happen is just used as an excuse for him to still be alive while "Killing" him for shock value.

You need to learn not to be rude. Why should anyone care what you say if all your doing is insulting everyone that disagrees with you?
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:27   Link #4598
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You haven't convinced anyone why Duo's sudden and dramatic change in FT is anything but full of plot holes, bad writing, and ignores everything that made Duo, Duo.

Zechs from Wing TV and EW could have done something(Since he was shown to be "very" competent there) and wouldn't have standed for someone abusing his name since that would in turn be abusing Relena's name. Him being "powerless" and allowing this to happen is just used as an excuse for him to still be alive while "Killing" him for shock value.

You need to learn not to be rude. Why should anyone care what you say if all your doing is insulting everyone that disagrees with you?
The fact that you are calling something that happened over 30 years sudden and dramatic is laughable and shows your reading comprehension. Multiple people have tried to tell you that people change over their lives. Even dramatic changes. People change. People grow depending on their environment. Duo never had a real family aside from the Sister Helen and Father Maxwell. They died when he was young. He even talked about that in the novel.

Zechs in Wng was an extremist who admitted to his mistakes. Right now he is fighting against a whole planet that basically has his family hostage. He can't do anything drastic. He is doing things the correct way. He isn't shooting everyone who he thinks is involved. He is gathering information. That is the smart thing to do. I don't know what you want him to do. You are ignoring everything written in the novel because it doesn't suit your taste. You decided before you even read the novel that you didn't like it based off of what you heard. If you don't like it that is fine but don't whine that the characters have grown up in various ways in the 30 years they have lived since the end of Endless Waltz. You can't name 1 person who has ever lived that hasn't changed from 15 to 40. People care about what I have to say because I post facts from the novel instead of whiny drivel. The only person who has felt insulted by me is you. You ignore the facts I post because you want everyone to act the same way they did in 1995 when the show was airing. Too bad.
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:44   Link #4599
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You don't read anything you respond to do you? It's sudden because it happens off screen and fans aren't given any explanation. They're just supposed to accept that Duo, who was happy with Hilde at the end of EW, is suddenly a jerk that has no trace of his old self at all? You know, the character that fans loved in the first place and were expecting to see in a sequel to their favorite series? So what was the point in using Duo if he doesn't resemble his old self and is a complete stranger to fans? Oh right, just a bad writer using an established characters identity and looks to try and sell someone that's completely different.

And again, why should anyone care what you say if you can't even stop yourself from hurling insults every chance you get? How are you even making a point if you must resort to such pettiness?
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:59   Link #4600
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You never heard of gradual exposition, have you? Frozen Teardrop has a shit ton of backstory to explore, but right now you're not acting very patient for the explanations. You're just acting like you want it all piled on at once--which is not going to happen.
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