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Old 2011-11-12, 14:28   Link #521
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
why do I have the feelin to slap the inquis guys?
Dunno, why do you?
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Old 2011-11-12, 16:29   Link #522
HurricaneHige
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So, this beta pretty solidified my decision to keep my pre-order on this game, but now I'm undecided between Jedi classes or Smuggler, I think Smuggler has a better story but Jedi's a Jedi...

Plenty of time between now till launch, I guess.

EDIT: I'm also not a big fan of how they handled the Dark/Light system, I would've much preferred the Mass Effect system.
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Old 2011-11-12, 17:06   Link #523
Keroko
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Given that this is KotoR's successor, that particular system was probably already set in stone by the time the first meeting began.
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Old 2011-11-12, 17:29   Link #524
HurricaneHige
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Given that this is KotoR's successor, that particular system was probably already set in stone by the time the first meeting began.
Probably, just doesn't feel good to get pigeon hole into making a decision because you have to maintain your alignment. A few times I would rather make a light choice, but can't because that would take down my alignment. =/ ME did it better I feel.
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Old 2011-11-13, 21:50   Link #525
kuroishinigami
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No love from bioware for asia resident *sob*
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Old 2011-11-14, 04:42   Link #526
creb
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Originally Posted by HurricaneHige View Post
So, this beta pretty solidified my decision to keep my pre-order on this game, but now I'm undecided between Jedi classes or Smuggler, I think Smuggler has a better story but Jedi's a Jedi...

Plenty of time between now till launch, I guess.

EDIT: I'm also not a big fan of how they handled the Dark/Light system, I would've much preferred the Mass Effect system.
It's very strange that they took a step back from the Mass Effect system, which was a step forward from KotoR.

I was lucky enough to get in a long time ago, and have been able to play all four Imp classes to completion. Never got any of the Republic classes past their teens as their stories were all very uninspiring compared to their Imperial counterparts with the sole exception of the Trooper, who's story I felt was considerably better than the Bounty Hunter's. I can pretty much guarantee that Imperials will end up heavily outnumbering the Republic after the servers have been live for a few weeks.

I was very happy that unlike every other MMO on the market, SWTOR has a solid single player rpg story experience if all you're looking for is KotoR III. My favorite story was that of the Imperial Agent, who's female actress is the same one Bioware used for DA2's Hawke (I think), back with all the snark and more. Close behind the Agent's story was the Sith Warrior.

I admit, I didn't find either the Bounty Hunter or the Inquisitor's stories all that compelling, though at least the Inq gets a pet Jedi for some lulz. I think part of why I didn't enjoy Bounty Hunter much is because I am so sick and tired of listening to Jennifer Hale, even though she's a fantastic voice actress. Bioware could have at least shook things up by having her voice a non-Shepard like character (the Jedi Consular has a horrible voice actress and would have been a nice fit for Hale to try to break free from the Shepard typecast), but she voices the Bounty Hunter/Republic Trooper, and all you can think while playing these characters is how they're just like Shepard (plus, many of the animations in conversations are straight out of Mass Effect).

Overall though, the VAing is pretty solid (as far as playable characters go, Imps have a big edge over Republic, but that's just because they've either got hawt accents or sultry commanding voices, as opposed to just normal chip on the block voices for the Republic...and a eensy bitsy bit of western twang for the Smuggler).

Bioware also did a good job of allowing you to be Light or Dark regardless of being Republic/Empire or Sith/Jedi. Both my Sith were Light side. As was my Agent. My Bounty Hunter was pure Dark side though.

They did a less good job of balancing compelling characters. In the sense that I found plenty of compelling characters on the Empire side, with some of the Sith being downright fabulous. Now, again, I never made it through my teens on the Republic side, but all I can say is YAWN when talking about the Republic NPCs I did meet.

With many of the choices I faced through the four storylines I played to 50, I can already see the moral police will be up in arms once the game is released. Bioware has outdone themselves and this is the best they've done, if one ignores the metagaming some will feel they need to do due to the archaic alignment system. ie: Some gamers will choose every Dark side or every Light side, since there is some gear that has alignment checks on it, and unlike Mass Effect, there aren't separate Light and Dark side checks, just one total alignment.

Anyways, I guess I'm one of the small minority that hasn't pre-ordered and has no intention of buying it. I mean, I think it's easily the best western MMO made ever, and I've been playing these things since we were a bunch of clueless geeks playing DIKU MUDs in the 90s , and I think it'll be a success, but I have no intention of throwing my life away to another MMO after successfully quitting my addiction a little over three years ago. It's amazing how much time I have to do other things once I freed myself.

I'm just glad I got into beta so early that I was able to play the storylines for free, and if there's anyone out there that wasn't keen on buying the game because they only wanted the story and didn't want an MMO, let me reassure you that while there's more grinding involved than a typical single player Bioware RPG, there's an awful lot of single player RPG story that can be had while completely ignoring the MMO part of the game. Even from a single player perspective, I think it's easily their most ambitious story-driven game since perhaps the Baldur's Gate era, and it's entirely possible I am viewing BG through nostalgia goggles.

Now, I admit, a strong single player story-driven experience may not necessarily mean a thing to the average MMO player, and it could all flop horribly as millions of leet sauce purple chasers completely ignore the story aspect and devour the raid aspect in a month and then grow bored, but if it's a success, Bioware will have raised a bar so high that I suspect it'll be years before anyone is willing to invest the amount of money it would take to make something similar.

Last edited by creb; 2011-11-14 at 04:53.
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Old 2011-11-14, 05:07   Link #527
Skyfall
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It's good to hear that the single player aspect hasn't been neglected and the story packs a punch, it's one of the reasons I'm looking towards this. And no, I wasn't about to take Bioware's word for that ... you are a much more neutral source . After having thrown off my WoW shackles I am looking to take a more moderate approach to TOR (Like you, I was quite impressed with the amounts of free time that was cleared up after abandoning my hardcore raiding schedule), and the promise of extensive single player experience was certainly a lure.


Since you mention having four classes at 50 I assume you had one of each archetype ? In that case, would you mind commenting on how they feel at the top end from PvP and PvE perspective ? I well realize things are likely to change and balance is far from a static thing in MMOs, but still, some trends should be visible.

Specifically, I have been struggling with either a Sentinel or Sage for my first character choice, and for the life of me I can't decide on aesthetics alone (besides the fact I want a glowstick-wielding one for my first). More specifically, how do the classes measure up during heroic flashpoints, and how difficult are these instances ?

After prowling all over the interwebz like a thirsty man in desert and gathering all the leaked information I could, it seems to me that Sentinel/Marauder doesn't have any CC to speak of. (Aside from one for droids, but it's evident how this could be less than useful depending on what type of mobs you face). How does this play in to their viability regarding heroic flashpoints ? Is the content hard enough to "require" everyone to have CC, or is it easy enough to live without ? Wouldn't want a situation like in TBC in WoW, where no one wanted to take certain classes to heroics because of their lacking CC

Sages don't seem to have any issues in the CC department though, and if that's what people will need to complete the instances ... well... *shrug*.
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Old 2011-11-14, 06:20   Link #528
Keroko
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I'm not surprised the Imperial side is more interesting in terms of story. We've been playing the good guys for years on end now in almost every game out there. We've watched their movies, we've read their books, so we know the stories from the inside out.

Bad guys though, we've watched, read or played a lot less, so their stories are more fresh, and thus more interesting.
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Old 2011-11-14, 08:18   Link #529
HurricaneHige
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Hm...I found Smugglers' story to be quite good (like playing Jack Sparrow), and everyone rave about the Bounty Hunter's story often, which is why I will try that next. I do agree that the Jedi's stories overall are just a yawnfest as we have all "been there, done that". However, making evil choices along the way helps quite a bit...although there are some choice I rather not make but were forced to make anyways.
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Old 2011-11-14, 09:58   Link #530
Kyero Fox
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The jedi stories are boring beccause we always start as one in the last games.

The troopers story is the best imho. I wanted to romance the alien green girl buuuuut or the catt alien chick.
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Old 2011-11-14, 12:36   Link #531
Keroko
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I'm going to scoff at the alignment system and just make the choices I want to make, then see where I'll end up. If it turns out I really, really need full light or dark for something special, I'll just farm the points with diplomacy.
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Old 2011-11-14, 12:43   Link #532
Skyfall
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I'm going to scoff at the alignment system and just make the choices I want to make, then see where I'll end up. If it turns out I really, really need full light or dark for something special, I'll just farm the points with diplomacy.
There will be some specific gear restricted to either Light Side or Dark Side alignment (And some on depending how "deep" you are in said alignment). No "neutral" alignment gear though. Impossible to know how said items will stack up against the regular endgame ones, but suffice to say, going neutral will lock you out of some gear choices. And yeah, I don't like it either *sigh*
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Old 2011-11-14, 12:51   Link #533
Keroko
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Diplomacy it is then. Like hell I'm going to let points get in the way of my game when I have an alternative at hand.
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Old 2011-11-14, 15:33   Link #534
creb
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Specifically, I have been struggling with either a Sentinel or Sage for my first character choice, and for the life of me I can't decide on aesthetics alone (besides the fact I want a glowstick-wielding one for my first). More specifically, how do the classes measure up during heroic flashpoints, and how difficult are these instances ?
I had four, yes, but remember, there's actually eight, not four (each of the four classes makes an irreversible choice between two archtypes at level 10, and the eight classes are mirror images skill-wise, just having different names/graphics depending on whether they are Republic/Imperial). My initial plan had been to do the other four archtypes on the Republic side, but as I noted, I never got past my teens there.

That said, one of the four I played was a Sith Sorcerer(es), which is the cool version of a Sage. As I'm sure you know, MMO communities, even in betas, always hold up a class as being OP/FOTM, and the Sage/Sorcerer fits that bill in SWTOR. Things may change, and Bioware has continued to tweak this class as I'm fairly certain they are aware of the perception, so who knows how it all settles upon release.

The class has it all really. Healing + Ranged Damage + CC + Escape Mechanisms. It even starts off with the best Companion synergy with a tank, though I think one of the worst (Imperial side anyways) Companions in terms of personality (with one of them making me feel like I had a teenage daughter; which isn't a good thing if there's any question ).

Recently, they dropped the range on a lot of class abilities across all classes down to 10 yards, which seems restrictive. I get the strong feeling it won't be 10 yards at release though.

I took a quick peek at the beta boards (was avoiding them this weekend as the flood gates had opened and the usual whino threads that are normally in the minority during general beta becomes all pervasive whenever they've brought in weekend testers), and it seems many of the weekend players seem to think the Sage/Sorceror is weak for the early levels, with the 10 yard range being the key complaint. Now, I do not have a 50 Sorc this build, but I did start a new one to play a few hours with my GF who got in this weekend, and once you adjust your tactics and the order you fire off skills, there was nothing particularly bad about such a short range.

And, again, probably a non-issue, since I think the 10 m range is more of an experiment to test range issues in PvP than a serious change that'll be around at release.

PvP healing is good. While Operatives are the best emergency healers, Sage is a more complete pvp healing package due to being more ranged/knockbacks/get-aways (far more fun playing Huttball with a Sage than an Operative). It's hard to say which would be a better pvp healing choice in a tight knit group of friends where min/maxing can sometimes be more important than general utility, but from a pure solo/pug player's perspective, the Sage is probably a friendlier class to play. Full disclaimer: My Operative is my favorite character. Over the years, I had played every class to end game raiding in WoW, but at heart, I was always a Rogue, and the Operative is SWTOR's closest thing to it, with the ability to spec to be a main healer.

The Sage/Sorc was also able to heal every Flashpoint I did without a problem, but Flashpoints aren't brutally hard. Not as faceroll as the Lich King (though I can't say I was every uber-geared, so who knows), while not being as PUG unfriendly as The Burning Crusade.

As for CC, it's helpful, but not needed to the level of how things were immediately after The Burning Crusade opened up. But, again, the Sage has it all, so this is not the class I forsee having a hard time getting a group. That honor goes to the Marauder and its Jedi counterpart, as those are the only two classes out of the eight that have only one role: damage. And, they don't even do that noticeably better than any other dps class. Frankly, I foresee an incredible amount of whine and cheese down the road for that class when the floodgates open.

It's been often said in a relatively tongue-in-cheek manner that the relatively anemic story for the Sorc/Sage, was actually done on purpose to compensate for the very strong class. I think tin-foil hats are in vogue among the MMO community, but I do agree their stories are both the weakest for their respective factions.
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Old 2011-11-14, 16:15   Link #535
Skyfall
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And, again, probably a non-issue, since I think the 10 m range is more of an experiment to test range issues in PvP than a serious change that'll be around at release.
10m range ? Indeed, I can't imagine them sticking to this value, that's borderline constant melee range. For a game that seems fairly range-focused to start with aesthetics wise, such a fighting distance would seem a bit silly, IMO. Though admittedly the ranged classes seem far less vulnerable at melee range than in most other MMOs from the various PvP footage I have seen, so who knows.

Quote:
PvP healing is good. While Operatives are the best emergency healers, Sage is a more complete pvp healing package due to being more ranged/knockbacks/get-aways (far more fun playing Huttball with a Sage than an Operative).
If there is one thing that worries me regarding PvP from all the footage I have seen, it's knockbacks and the role they will play. IIRC the cooldown on those abilities is 15 seconds, which makes them fairly close to "spammable" if two or three such characters team up. Coupled with the fact that Hutball and Voidstar are built around narrow walkways you have to get across, I can already foresee these being abused.


Quote:
The Sage/Sorc was also able to heal every Flashpoint I did without a problem, but Flashpoints aren't brutally hard. Not as faceroll as the Lich King (though I can't say I was every uber-geared, so who knows), while not being as PUG unfriendly as The Burning Crusade.
I hope they aren't quite as easy as Lich King ones, that period of WoW was seriously a brain-numbing experience as far as the 5-mans went For what's it worth I don't plan on healing though, have tried a few times and could never find the appeal in it. I would tank from time to time, but not really possible with the Sage/Sorc advanced class ... and figures Sent/Marauder don't have any tanking capability either.

Quote:
As for CC, it's helpful, but not needed to the level of how things were immediately after The Burning Crusade opened up. But, again, the Sage has it all, so this is not the class I forsee having a hard time getting a group. That honor goes to the Marauder and its Jedi counterpart, as those are the only two classes out of the eight that have only one role: damage. And, they don't even do that noticeably better than any other dps class. Frankly, I foresee an incredible amount of whine and cheese down the road for that class when the floodgates open.
That does sound slightly disheartening for the dual glowstick wielders indeed. A shame, as I am probably gravitating more towards Sent than Sage (Raided as DK in WOTLK, switched to Warlock in Cata, so after raiding my sanity out as ranged with all the intensity of a second job - a habit I really should work to break - was planning for some change of pace). I guess going Sage and waiting until the upcoming QQ does it's thing before rolling a Sent alt could work also though

That, or ignore any potential deficiencies and hope they address them along the way. From what I hear it's a pretty long road to 50, so plenty of time for Bioware to make live tweaks. How long, approximately, did it take you to hit 50 ?

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it!
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Old 2011-11-14, 18:54   Link #536
Keroko
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If there is one thing that worries me regarding PvP from all the footage I have seen, it's knockbacks and the role they will play. IIRC the cooldown on those abilities is 15 seconds, which makes them fairly close to "spammable" if two or three such characters team up. Coupled with the fact that Hutball and Voidstar are built around narrow walkways you have to get across, I can already foresee these being abused.
If two or three characters team up on one player, that player is dead regardless of knockbacks.

And knocking people of walkways with knockbacks has so far been treated as a valid tactic by the devs, if I recall my forum quotes. Which I like. It makes positioning more important than the usual 'run circles around them' tactic.
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Old 2011-11-14, 23:01   Link #537
HurricaneHige
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MMORPG.com is currently giving away betakeys. Anyone who is NOT part of the invited beta should go and grab one nao!

If you are invited already, don't, apparently it hurts your chances for future beta if you enter a code.

EDIT: Looks like the next beta is likely Thanksgiving weekend for the states, since the code must be entered before Nov 18.

Let's get some planning done! If last beta was any indication, EU servers will be down again for the duration of the beta. So...there are a lot of servers still, but many will be full quickly (some ppls had to queue every day to get into their server). I will once again be on a PvP server that had a lesser population, Prophecy of the Five, feel free to join me. This time I will likely roll a Jedi Guardian (tank mode) to test my launch build, if you wanna group up for flash points and such come to Prophecy of the Five!
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Old 2011-11-15, 01:02   Link #538
creb
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10m range ? Indeed, I can't imagine them sticking to this value, that's borderline constant melee range. For a game that seems fairly range-focused to start with aesthetics wise, such a fighting distance would seem a bit silly, IMO. Though admittedly the ranged classes seem far less vulnerable at melee range than in most other MMOs from the various PvP footage I have seen, so who knows.



If there is one thing that worries me regarding PvP from all the footage I have seen, it's knockbacks and the role they will play. IIRC the cooldown on those abilities is 15 seconds, which makes them fairly close to "spammable" if two or three such characters team up. Coupled with the fact that Hutball and Voidstar are built around narrow walkways you have to get across, I can already foresee these being abused.




I hope they aren't quite as easy as Lich King ones, that period of WoW was seriously a brain-numbing experience as far as the 5-mans went For what's it worth I don't plan on healing though, have tried a few times and could never find the appeal in it. I would tank from time to time, but not really possible with the Sage/Sorc advanced class ... and figures Sent/Marauder don't have any tanking capability either.



That does sound slightly disheartening for the dual glowstick wielders indeed. A shame, as I am probably gravitating more towards Sent than Sage (Raided as DK in WOTLK, switched to Warlock in Cata, so after raiding my sanity out as ranged with all the intensity of a second job - a habit I really should work to break - was planning for some change of pace). I guess going Sage and waiting until the upcoming QQ does it's thing before rolling a Sent alt could work also though

That, or ignore any potential deficiencies and hope they address them along the way. From what I hear it's a pretty long road to 50, so plenty of time for Bioware to make live tweaks. How long, approximately, did it take you to hit 50 ?

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it!
Well, leveling/playing time fluctuates like crazy from person to person, but by my third 50, I was able to do it in a little over a week. The more diehard never sleep people do it in under a week. I have no hard data, but my guess if you were to graph playing times and levels, you'd get a small pack of people at 50 by week's end, a big pack of people who were in their high 20s, low 30s after a week. Then another huge pack of people in their low teens who've spent that week just playing through the first 10 levels of a number of classes to try them out. And a few unemployed people who are chasing whatever perceived epeen there is in getting to 50 first in a matter of a day or two.

This is why I said earlier that despite the immense amount of money Bioware (or, more likely, EA) spent on the game to be the first real MMO to be as engaging as a single player story-driven RPG, I'm not actually sure that the whole Mass Effect style of storytelling is going to be a hit with the average MMO player. Not because the average MMO player doesn't care about story, but because the average MMO player has, over the years, become so entrenched in the idea that they have to get through content now, now, now, or you're a pathetic excuse for a human being, and I can see a large number of people act like they don't want to slow down to enjoy the story out of fear of being ridiculed on their vent for slowing their guild progression down. I certainly hope this isn't the case, but the cynical side of me can't help but predict a very local crowd crying about running out of things to do raid-wise and throwing a hissy fit, while mostly ignoring the tons of story-driven gameplay that exists in the game.

I absolutely do not want this to happen, so I am hoping I am just being overly cynical, because even though I have no intention of playing SWTOR as an MMO, I think what Bioware did here has GREATLY elevated the MMO genre, and showed just because you've made an online game, you don't have to cheap out on the story side of things. Games like SWTOR, if successful, are genre changers, and ultimately mean the chances of higher quality video games increase in an era where video games seem to be constantly cutting corners. So, I have to support its success.

I did really enjoy the story aspect of the game, but it's important to remember that while the class stories are all different, every class also shares all the general quests/stories, and you'll be doing those over every time you make a new character of your faction, so by my fourth 50, I was just spacebaring through all the general dialog/cutscenes, which greatly reduced the amount of time it takes to climb the leveling ladder.

There will be a lot of rage though among pugs as some members of a pug will be wanting to experience the cinematic storytelling as you go through a flashpoint etc, while other members of the pug will be raging in chat to spacebar through. I foresee plenty of snobby idiots dropping groups because some teammate wouldn't skip all the cutscenes. It hasn't been much of an issue in beta, even though most of us have now seen them all a gabillion times now, but my faith in the general venom of the public MMO community is strong that all that hate and bile will rise to the surface upon release.

Now, as far as knockbacks in pvp go...meh. I don't think they're particularly unbalanced, though I'm sure there'll be mountains of whining about it when live hits. Huttball is the best pvp map for knockbacks, but you need to keep in mind that the ball carrier has their speed greatly reduced. This greatly mitigates the overpowering effect knockbacks and other forms of CC would normally have on this map.

It's honestly the most fun version of capture the flag I've ever played in an MMO, that makes me think back to the glory days of Unreal Tournament 2003.

That said, SWTOR makes the same mistake every other MMO has made by tying gear progression to pvp, thus ensuring the vast majority of your peers and competition in these games will be people simply looking for the path of least resistance to obtaining gear. If I was a game designer, pvp would always be about pvp, and if I had any rewards, they'd be purely cosmetic/vanity. Maybe a few minor pvp-only utility type consumables. But, never gear. There's a reason why MMO pvp is so /facepalm compared to most other type of competitive online games, and it's because most of your actual competition in MMO pvp isn't actually there to pvp, but to obtain shiny lootz.

Last edited by creb; 2011-11-15 at 01:16.
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Old 2011-11-15, 02:00   Link #539
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If two or three characters team up on one player, that player is dead regardless of knockbacks.

And knocking people of walkways with knockbacks has so far been treated as a valid tactic by the devs, if I recall my forum quotes. Which I like. It makes positioning more important than the usual 'run circles around them' tactic.
Someone dying because 2-3 players jump on them isn't the issue, and obviously not what I was alluding to. The problem starts when 2-3 knockback capable classes can deny the whole enemy team a way across a ramp. A ramp that is necessary to cross if you want for the game to advance. The short cooldown means they can deny access for as long as they want, which would result in some rather ...dull...games.

That's for huttball, where the issue is minor compared to voidstar (and where you can try to counter with your own knocback and good timing), where people die when knocked down the walkways. Mark my words, stealthed shadow/assassin somewhere on the walkway, killing up to whole groups of people with the press of a button will be the most exploited "tactic" in said warzone, and forums will drown in tears. The way I see it, not a whole lot of thought has went in to the knockbacks and how they will affect gameplay within the context of their warzones. Though I'm sure they will learn in time

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb
There will be a lot of rage though among pugs as some members of a pug will be wanting to experience the cinematic storytelling as you go through a flashpoint etc, while other members of the pug will be raging in chat to spacebar through. I foresee plenty of snobby idiots dropping groups because some teammate wouldn't skip all the cutscenes. It hasn't been much of an issue in beta, even though most of us have now seen them all a gabillion times now, but my faith in the general venom of the public MMO community is strong that all that hate and bile will rise to the surface upon release.

Hm, so if I get this right, group cutscenes can only be skipped if all players agree to it ? (aka everyone needs to spacebar ?) If that's the case ... yeah, I can see this being the prime rage-inductor during PUG runs. WOTLK festered the "gogogog" mentality in too many players, people who couldn't be bothered to stop for a second between pulls, so I see this generating a lot of hostility indeed. It will probably be ok (more or less) at start, but I pity the new players who will join a year down the road and get to group with people who are leveling their 4th alt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb
This is why I said earlier that despite the immense amount of money Bioware (or, more likely, EA) spent on the game to be the first real MMO to be as engaging as a single player story-driven RPG, I'm not actually sure that the whole Mass Effect style of storytelling is going to be a hit with the average MMO player. Not because the average MMO player doesn't care about story, but because the average MMO player has, over the years, become so entrenched in the idea that they have to get through content now, now, now, or you're a pathetic excuse for a human being, and I can see a large number of people act like they don't want to slow down to enjoy the story out of fear of being ridiculed on their vent for slowing their guild progression down. I certainly hope this isn't the case, but the cynical side of me can't help but predict a very local crowd crying about running out of things to do raid-wise and throwing a hissy fit, while mostly ignoring the tons of story-driven gameplay that exists in the game.
Aye, definitely. The fact that a good number of raiding-focused players will barrel through the story to hit a wall in the end is all but a foregone conclusion. Too many are probably used to the vast amounts of raid content in WoW, and the nuances that go in to encounter design that Blizz have been developing over 7 years. In contrast, not many probably recall or were around the days when UBRS was the closest to "raid" content one could get in WoW. It took Blizz a lot of time to get where it is now, I just hope people will give Bioware said time as well.

Which is why I have no intentions of joining a guild until I have hit 50 at my own pace. Which is still going to be pretty quickly, probably, but I don't need any additional pressure in that regard. Nowhere to rush after all for now, and world firsts haven't really ever interested me.
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Old 2011-11-15, 07:01   Link #540
Keroko
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
This is why I said earlier that despite the immense amount of money Bioware (or, more likely, EA) spent on the game to be the first real MMO to be as engaging as a single player story-driven RPG, I'm not actually sure that the whole Mass Effect style of storytelling is going to be a hit with the average MMO player. Not because the average MMO player doesn't care about story, but because the average MMO player has, over the years, become so entrenched in the idea that they have to get through content now, now, now, or you're a pathetic excuse for a human being, and I can see a large number of people act like they don't want to slow down to enjoy the story out of fear of being ridiculed on their vent for slowing their guild progression down. I certainly hope this isn't the case, but the cynical side of me can't help but predict a very local crowd crying about running out of things to do raid-wise and throwing a hissy fit, while mostly ignoring the tons of story-driven gameplay that exists in the game.
Having hung around the swtor forums for three years now, I can safely say that yes, these players will be there. I've lost count of the amount of threads requesting a 'skip story' function. They're usually a minority, even on the forums, but they're still there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
That said, SWTOR makes the same mistake every other MMO has made by tying gear progression to pvp, thus ensuring the vast majority of your peers and competition in these games will be people simply looking for the path of least resistance to obtaining gear. If I was a game designer, pvp would always be about pvp, and if I had any rewards, they'd be purely cosmetic/vanity. Maybe a few minor pvp-only utility type consumables. But, never gear. There's a reason why MMO pvp is so /facepalm compared to most other type of competitive online games, and it's because most of your actual competition in MMO pvp isn't actually there to pvp, but to obtain shiny lootz.
I like the way Guild Wars 2 does it. Gear is still obtainable and usable in PvE, but in PvP everyone is equalized. Level, gear and skills are all set to standard.

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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Someone dying because 2-3 players jump on them isn't the issue, and obviously not what I was alluding to. The problem starts when 2-3 knockback capable classes can deny the whole enemy team a way across a ramp. A ramp that is necessary to cross if you want for the game to advance. The short cooldown means they can deny access for as long as they want, which would result in some rather ...dull...games.

That's for huttball, where the issue is minor compared to voidstar (and where you can try to counter with your own knocback and good timing), where people die when knocked down the walkways. Mark my words, stealthed shadow/assassin somewhere on the walkway, killing up to whole groups of people with the press of a button will be the most exploited "tactic" in said warzone, and forums will drown in tears. The way I see it, not a whole lot of thought has went in to the knockbacks and how they will affect gameplay within the context of their warzones. Though I'm sure they will learn in time
I still don't think it's as big an issue as you imagine. The only classes that would be heavily affected by this would be the juggernaut and the guardian. Remember, after all, that 6 out of the 8 classes are ranged, so whether the opposition has knockbacks or not won't stop a team from killing them. The stealth classes can just sneak by, and even the sentinel and marauder have a temporary stealth that allows them to sneak by the knockbackers.

Yeah, stealth + knockback on a bridge will be a well used tactic, but that just means you have to think about where you're standing and how you go about fighting. I don't see that as a flaw, rather it helps bridge the gap between gear and skill. You can have all the gear you want, but if you're not handling your positioning and approach well, you're still going to get killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Hm, so if I get this right, group cutscenes can only be skipped if all players agree to it ? (aka everyone needs to spacebar ?) If that's the case ... yeah, I can see this being the prime rage-inductor during PUG runs. WOTLK festered the "gogogog" mentality in too many players, people who couldn't be bothered to stop for a second between pulls, so I see this generating a lot of hostility indeed. It will probably be ok (more or less) at start, but I pity the new players who will join a year down the road and get to group with people who are leveling their 4th alt.
Dunno, never really had an issue with that in Guild Wars when I started dabbling in it again a couple of months back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Aye, definitely. The fact that a good number of raiding-focused players will barrel through the story to hit a wall in the end is all but a foregone conclusion. Too many are probably used to the vast amounts of raid content in WoW, and the nuances that go in to encounter design that Blizz have been developing over 7 years. In contrast, not many probably recall or were around the days when UBRS was the closest to "raid" content one could get in WoW. It took Blizz a lot of time to get where it is now, I just hope people will give Bioware said time as well.

Which is why I have no intentions of joining a guild until I have hit 50 at my own pace. Which is still going to be pretty quickly, probably, but I don't need any additional pressure in that regard. Nowhere to rush after all for now, and world firsts haven't really ever interested me.
Likewise, though I will admit I have the advantage of not being a raider. I'll just level at my own pace, maybe join an RP guild to meet some friends to talk with while playing.
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