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Old 2011-11-28, 09:01   Link #641
Keroko
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Again, Kreia was unique in that regard. Exceptionally so. She did not just question your actions, but questioned the very nature of the Force itself. There has never been a character quite like her in any otherstar wars game, and even in EU I cannot quite recall a character like her. Vergere would be close, but she got driven into the ground by the amount of authors writing her. All in all, holding kreia as the standard is... unfair.
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Old 2011-11-28, 09:15   Link #642
Nixl
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I don't expect the writing of Kreia, but I just feel like the story needs some type of anchor. The grey and even the philosophical aspects is not so much the important part, but I just feel without something dedicated whether that be a villain, a teacher, a theme, or something to drive you I just find the story at fault at least for the Sith Warrior. Without it, the story looks like you are aimlessly traveling from point A to point B, which if I remember correctly Bioware wanted to avoid.

I believe Bioware should know better, it is not just Kreia, it is something, something at all to directly anchor your character to the plot.
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Old 2011-11-28, 09:34   Link #643
MeoTwister5
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
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Managed to play the beta some, though I can't finish the weekend beta access due to work.

Anyway definitely had a blast during the few hours I've had playing it. Will definitely get the game once it becomes available here.
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Old 2011-11-28, 14:39   Link #644
Alaya
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
I don't expect the writing of Kreia, but I just feel like the story needs some type of anchor. The grey and even the philosophical aspects is not so much the important part, but I just feel without something dedicated whether that be a villain, a teacher, a theme, or something to drive you I just find the story at fault at least for the Sith Warrior. Without it, the story looks like you are aimlessly traveling from point A to point B, which if I remember correctly Bioware wanted to avoid.

I believe Bioware should know better, it is not just Kreia, it is something, something at all to directly anchor your character to the plot.
I can't comment about the Sith Warrior's story because I haven't played that class. But for Jedi Knight, there's a theme or basic plot that players can follow (chasing and stopping the Sith from making a super weapon that can wipe the Republic). Maybe I have to play the Sith warrior class to see how the story goes.

For me, I think the game should offer more variety in the Dark Side options. I feel that the option can be more grey (which I find more interesting in general), like "killing few to save many" and not just "I want your money and I am going to kick it out from you".
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Old 2011-11-28, 16:16   Link #645
Nixl
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Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
I can't comment about the Sith Warrior's story because I haven't played that class. But for Jedi Knight, there's a theme or basic plot that players can follow (chasing and stopping the Sith from making a super weapon that can wipe the Republic). Maybe I have to play the Sith warrior class to see how the story goes.

For me, I think the game should offer more variety in the Dark Side options. I feel that the option can be more grey (which I find more interesting in general), like "killing few to save many" and not just "I want your money and I am going to kick it out from you".
To me, that sounds like a basic plot of "stop the bad guy" and not so much an overarching theme. In Kotor 1 the basic plot was stop Malik, but consider there was also a theme of whether someone (Revan) could change and become a new person or whether Revan would succumb to his former memories and return to the dark side. The question was brought by your companions, Malik, Jedi masters, and even the character of who you were and who you would become if I remember correctly.

From the sounds of it, both the Jedi Knight and the Sith Warrior appear to be point, click, and kill for the moment. I think Bioware should change that.

I agree that variety never hurts.

Edit: lol that typo

Last edited by Nixl; 2011-11-28 at 19:08.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:21   Link #646
kuroishinigami
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Well, being an online game, there's still hope for the story in the many expansion to come. Besides, even in KOTOR I, the first half of the game was basic plot of stop the bad guy. I don't know how far you got in Beta, but there's hope that the story will get more interesting near to the high level story.

One thing I hope Bioware will add is more hair scheme. I mean, why is there no long/mid-long back hair scheme for the male and female design? I want to make my character qui-gon-jinn look alike lol.

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2011-11-28 at 18:50.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:31   Link #647
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
To me, that sounds like a basic plot of "stop the bad guy" and not so much an overarching theme. In Kotor 1 the basic plot was stop Malik, but consider there was also a theme of whether someone (Revan) could change and become a new person or whether Revan would succumb to his former memories and return to the dark side. The question was brought by your companions, Malik, Jedi masters, and even the character of who you were and who you would become if I remember correctly.
I can't say I ever felt this underlying theme of Revan succumbing to his former memories beyond the superficial level. Malik was more concerned with killing you, Vrook mentioned it once (which was a pretty damn awesome hint for the twist by the way) so the only person left to talk about it was Bastilla. And those conversations were entirely optional, and far more the general "don't fall to the dark side" kind of talk.

Beyond that, the decision was pretty much a last moment kind of thing. You could be a most evil of dark characters, but if you choose to side with the Republic when confronting Bastilla on the Star Forge, you get a 100% light sided ending, and vice versa.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:42   Link #648
Nixl
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Hehe, I was just thinking back to it and trying to remember how much of it was extra dialogue. Nonetheless, I believe the theme was there, even if one had to find it. Even if it served as extra the game still had Malik and the realization that you were Revan to drive things along.

With ToR, I think Bioware could have done more. Personally, I do wonder how much of the story had to revolve around each class being a young prodigy and thus could not, or at least, did not have any type of a back-story akin to Revan or the Exile that Bioware could create. That is not to say backstory or age is a requirement in my opinion, but it seems strange having multiple classes each of whom are supposed to be "once in a millennium" prodigies that no one ever heard of. I feel like characters with back-stories would be a great method of making player-characters seem less like randoms, but then you would probably have users annoyed that they were forced into a character type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Well, being an online game, there's still hope for the story in the many expansion to come. Besides, even in KOTOR I, the first half of the game was basic plot of stop the bad guy. I don't know how far you got in Beta, but there's hope that the story will get more interesting near to the high level story.
While what you say is true kuroishinigami plus the fact that I only got to around 11-ish before my game became corrupted, I have seen/read a lot of the mid-final story spoilers and I simply don't find the story as compelling as say Kotor 1 or 2. Personally my attachment to the Kotor series have been with Revan, the Exile, and Kreia and TOR is probably going to become its own beast if not already both in terms of story and gameplay. That is not to say you or others will not find enjoyment with it, but simply the decisions that Bioware have made in regards to the future of TOR's story is not my cup of tea.

Last edited by Nixl; 2011-11-28 at 18:54.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:48   Link #649
Keroko
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Well, do keep in mind that both the Exile and Revan were prodigies as well, so that part should not matter. Also, the Revan twist wasn't something you learned until you were well beyond the halfway mark of the game. Not to say TOR has such a twist, but on the flipside, we don't know if it hasn't either.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:05   Link #650
Nixl
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You are right they were prodigies, but they also had a history to them if that makes sense. The Exile was a former general of Revan who was exiled. While it may not have been much and something that was built as the story progressed and not up front it did appear a good means of making your character more definitive and less of a "nobody."

While the Revan realization did occur relatively late, it did happen.

I know I have been rambling about "dedicated this or dedicated that, etc" but ultimately I think these things serve to acknowledge your character and carve out an existence amongst a sea of NPCs. Just as much as gear, stats, or good/evil choices help to give shape to someone's story, I believe having a villain, a theme, or a backstory can also help create that sense of identity or existence in a story. As an MMO, especially one trying to market a meaningful person story, I think methods that bring acknowledgment to the character are pivotal to its long term success. It is hard to understand some of Bioware's choices at the moment, but maybe I simply do not have to.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:13   Link #651
kuroishinigami
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Well, a dedicated special back-story is plain impossible in MMO I guess. We can't have a thousands Revan running around in the game can't we :P I agree that the Jedi story(can't comment on Sith) feels a little bit too "goody-goody", but I haven't got far enough to put a judgement whether the story is good or not. One thing I'm sure of though, it definitely has far more story content than any other previous MMORPG I played.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:31   Link #652
Nixl
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Well, a dedicated special back-story is plain impossible in MMO I guess. We can't have a thousands Revan running around in the game can't we :P I agree that the Jedi story(can't comment on Sith) feels a little bit too "goody-goody", but I haven't got far enough to put a judgement whether the story is good or not. One thing I'm sure of though, it definitely has far more story content than any other previous MMORPG I played.
Actually, I would say that Bioware is trying to set up thousands of Revans running around, which is partially how this discussion started. They are trying to give your character the significance of Revan without successfully doing so if that make sense. Most of the force users to my memory are all called prodigies of legendary importance. I think Ryus told me that the Consular is suppose to be, "the strongest force user the jedi had in decades and were stronger in the force at age 4 than most masters at 20." The Sith Warrior is told multiple times that he is one of the strongest users ever....while in Sith school. There is a another detail that is a massive spoiler and so I will not type it without a spoiler tag, but let's just say that your character is suppose to be far stronger than Revan.

One reason I bring up the mentor, the villain, or the theme is that it can heighten the character's significance, but Bioware seems to be going the most direct route possible by flat out telling the player you are strong with out much reference or context. Bioware has not convinced me that these characters are legendary and superior to Revan.
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Old 2011-11-29, 00:32   Link #653
Ryus
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Just hit a good enough stopping point... can't class quest anymore until I level 5 levels and the beta closes in about 30 minutes.

But yeap... within 30 seconds of starting the Jedi Consular your told you're "the strongest force user the jedi had in decades and were stronger in the force at age 4 than "most masters" at 20." (more specifically your jedi master youn par says you where stronger than her at age 4 then when she was in her 20s, ad then she's implied to be some especially strong master and she said that infront of a council member whom seemed to agree with her about your strength (even though she's only scaled a few levels above you at all times and not lvl 50). Then your accessing holocrons that only masters can access... which is total BS from my understanding of holocrons since they don't judge power but experience as explained in the Jedi Academy books by Kevin J Anderson (which where really bad, though the tie in book I, Jedi was pretty darn good IMHO).

But it's real simple Nixl, you raid therefore you are god . It matters not that Revan is rated by his creator as equal to Darth Vader or Darth Bane, since clearly lucasarts isn't doing there supposed job of making sure there is no plot conflicts in Star Wars when they work with anyone doing anything official with Star Wars. All that matters is that some jackass says your stronger even though they themselves never meet Revan to compare. On a good day I view that as just another fool thinking they live in the most important time in all history (and therefore person x is the strongest) and it's just the characters being characters ignoring the past (which Jedi claim not to do btw ), but most of the time I just view it as the quick and easy path to establish these characters as the most important/powerful (btw that's the same reason I hated The Jedi Academy Series, Kevin J Anderson just had to make several characters all stronger than Luke Skywalkers maximum potential, and any hardcore Star Wars fan knows George Lucas will then pay someone to write that out of Star Wars via the usual looking back on it he wasn't really that strong but the Emperor and Vader (Shivers in fear at there power) he was just really strong in ability X which I know can defend against)

Now people can argue the Exile is indeed weaker since KotOR II said she was an average Jedi as a student... though it was from a questionable source who was jaded against her and every fool knows power at student is not equal to the persons potential at master (plus we never got a midichlorian count ). Even though the whole point of KotOR II beyond the "she a wound in the force" is that though fighting and loss one can grow stronger, so no matter how weak she was in the beginning in the end she wasn't that person anymore. Yet, like Revan she gets written out in the lamest way possible. Before anyone goes whining about me only hating it since they died, know that I wanted them to die before I knew. I just wanted it well written... That's not too much to ask, was it? I was hoping they'd either both die working together (if they went to weak writing route), or the Sith Emperor would recorrupt Revan and then the Exile would sacrifice herself to take Revan down with her and save his mind in her final moments and in there final moment they send the mental attack back at the emperor, and then the new characters would use that moment to attack the emperor directly in his weakened state. The benefit of doing the later is you get to witness Revan as the Sith Lord in the lore and the Exile as his best General and they can be the fulcrum to compare powers to the new characters, hell one of them could have even been the Final master to one of the others... and then the new character could have taken over there shoes once Revan and the Exile killed each other. Hell Revan could have even trained both the SW and SI from the Sith stage to Sith Master stage, while the Exile became the JK and JC master from the Jedi Stage to Jedi Master stage. Best part is they wouldn't even have had to travel with you for it too work. After all the whole point of Star Wars and Jedi/Sith training is "pass on what you have learned". The master/apprentice dynamic is the best plot device Star Wars has going for it off the bat before any character plot is added, yet in this game it was kinda wasted with Revan and the Exile just being written out. I mean sure the exile trained people back in the day and Revan knocked up a chick but that is a far cry from these characters doing there belief of "passing on what they have learned" until the very end.

Oh and before anyone asks... the Exile doesn't have to rejoin the order for this to happen but I don't see why she couldn't even though she was exiled. After all one of her disciples "disciple" became one of the council members and could have planted seeds to allow her return. Plus not only that the book Revan already stated she wasn't really cut off from the force, so just write 5 lines of dialog stating Kriea was mistaken then have people be able to sense her now fully restored connection to the force and she'd be accepted back into the order or at least allowed to fight in the war.

Now enough talk of what could have been...

Edit: Just to clarify I wanted both Revan and the Exile to die (not necessarily before any expansion packs, let alone before the game in one of there cases ) since how else could this supposed threat that was so vast and so powerful actually be shown as such (They took KotOR II's True Sith Empire idea but retconned everything else great about that game, it felt so forced it felt like bioware was marking it's territory and just being assholes about it IMHO)... on a personal level I loved both characters deeply and wanted nothing but the best for them I just didn't see it being possible on a long term MMO (and I thought it'd be cheap having them hook up from there point of view just months after leaving 300 years ago)
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Old 2011-11-29, 01:49   Link #654
creb
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If you really think the Sith Warrior is simply "go kill", then I have to question how far you got through it, and what type of conversation choices you made. While I think the Imperial Agent has the best overall story in the game, when it comes to the Lightsaber-wielding classes, the Sith Warrior had a surprising amount of play and nuance to it, assuming you allowed it to and didn't simply choose to murder everyone you met. In the case of my Sith Warrior, Jaesa Williams said it best, "You are a being of Light, masked by Darkness...", and she spends quite a bit of time angsting about how we are to live with the Dark things we do for the bigger picture/greater good. Again, assuming of course you're not just some homicidal maniac who murders everyone because...hey, Sith=psychotic murder in your eyes. I mean, for goodness sake, you have a philosophical conversation (and acceptance) with the Light Side reflection of yourself. Again, assuming you're not the type of player to just spam the '3' key on your keyboard, there's a lot of measured depth to the SW if one so chooses.

One of the best things about the Sith are that they allow for the entire spectrum of Light to Dark and everything inbetween, while making you feel any of those ways of playing are equally valid, though I admit the Sith Inquisitor has far less wiggle room to play Light/Gray with without feeling like you're choosing a throwaway choice in all your conversations.

It's far more meaningless when you play both Jedi stories, to play with a heavy Dark Side tint to everything. The game allows you to, but does nothing to make you feel that it's just as valid a choice as being a self-righteous LS goodytwoshoes. It's obvious, to me at least, that the Bioware writers had much more fun with the freedom brought to them when they can write for characters that don't have to be held to some ridiculously self-righteous standard, and the general (obviously there are exceptions) opinion in the many months of beta I've been in is that this is reflected in superior storytelling the Empire has as a whole. Sure, there are the odd beta testers who "only play the side they don't intend to at launch", but those are almost always short term testers. With the bulk of general beta testers having tested the game for months, they've played both sides a lot, and it's telling how much emptier the Republic side is when it's only general testers around.

As far as the Jedi Consular story goes, it consistently ranks last every time I have seen a poll about the stories through general beta (I've tried to avoid the forums during the weekend tests). I, personally, found it horrible, though both advanced classes are powerful enough that plenty of people will put up with the story anyways.

I'm also not sure why some of you think Revan was simply written out of the story. There are loads of references to him/her in the game, though more so on the Empire side I believe than the Republic.
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Old 2011-11-29, 02:15   Link #655
Ithekro
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Managed to get my Jedi Sage to level 19 before the time ran out (did their little survey in the last minute before the server went down). Finished the third planet's class related storyline over the Jedi and the "Plague". Was still working on some other quests that probably would have got me to level 20 before leaving for the next part of the Jedi class quest chain (which is the real reason you are going from planet to planet anyway).

I think that it is possible to get rather different versions of the story if you decide to go against the normal grain of your class, especially the Force users. The non-Force users can go any way they want really, but if you are a Jedi you are suppose to follow the Light and if you are a Sith you are suppose to follow the Dark Side. However you have the option not to do so. I did not test this as I doubt a Dark Side picking Jedi Sage would last long, even if he got the results. But it is an option. And some of the time "I" probably would have picked the Dark Side option, since it was a emotion based responce as oppose to an evil responce (I wonder if I had just given in to the "lover" on the first planet, if my Lightsaber would have been any better than they little +2 crystal I picked out of the cave for it.)

Though I did try to do something that was not a quest, but was something that was told to me by one of the Guardian robots....about the "First Blade". That it should be returned. After I got my ship I had also gotten another lightsaber that was marginally better than my first one, so I went back to that world in an attempt to return the "First Blade". There was no quest for it, and when I got there nothing happened...so I went back to my business. At least I attempted to follow through on something that might come up again later.

One assumes you can be a Sith that spares people, or a Jedi that decide to end things first and talk later (or lies and take down corrupt politicians by breaking the law).

I did like that you would get mail from people you helped as a sort of closure to the questlines long after you moved on. Judging by their contend I think those are the other things than change depending on your choices. (I wonder if I had gone the Dark Side path if I would have saved the holocrons of medical data instead of saving the girl, or if they would have been unrecoverable from the fire/explosion anyway? I did get a letter from the girl later). Another thing I haven't done is "flirt" in any conversation. It might be bad form, but then sometimes I think I've seem Jedi flirt to make the situation more confortable (though that might just be Obi-wan negotiating)
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Old 2011-11-29, 02:32   Link #656
creb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Managed to get my Jedi Sage to level 19 before the time ran out (did their little survey in the last minute before the server went down). Finished the third planet's class related storyline over the Jedi and the "Plague". Was still working on some other quests that probably would have got me to level 20 before leaving for the next part of the Jedi class quest chain (which is the real reason you are going from planet to planet anyway).

I think that it is possible to get rather different versions of the story if you decide to go against the normal grain of your class, especially the Force users. The non-Force users can go any way they want really, but if you are a Jedi you are suppose to follow the Light and if you are a Sith you are suppose to follow the Dark Side. However you have the option not to do so. I did not test this as I doubt a Dark Side picking Jedi Sage would last long, even if he got the results. But it is an option. And some of the time "I" probably would have picked the Dark Side option, since it was a emotion based responce as oppose to an evil responce (I wonder if I had just given in to the "lover" on the first planet, if my Lightsaber would have been any better than they little +2 crystal I picked out of the cave for it.)

Though I did try to do something that was not a quest, but was something that was told to me by one of the Guardian robots....about the "First Blade". That it should be returned. After I got my ship I had also gotten another lightsaber that was marginally better than my first one, so I went back to that world in an attempt to return the "First Blade". There was no quest for it, and when I got there nothing happened...so I went back to my business. At least I attempted to follow through on something that might come up again later.

One assumes you can be a Sith that spares people, or a Jedi that decide to end things first and talk later (or lies and take down corrupt politicians by breaking the law).

I did like that you would get mail from people you helped as a sort of closure to the questlines long after you moved on. Judging by their contend I think those are the other things than change depending on your choices. (I wonder if I had gone the Dark Side path if I would have saved the holocrons of medical data instead of saving the girl, or if they would have been unrecoverable from the fire/explosion anyway? I did get a letter from the girl later). Another thing I haven't done is "flirt" in any conversation. It might be bad form, but then sometimes I think I've seem Jedi flirt to make the situation more confortable (though that might just be Obi-wan negotiating)
Being a shades of grey or Light Side Sith is actually very rewarding. Lots of NPCs are taken aback by you, and you really get the feel that you are opening people's eyes to the idea that Sith doesn't necessarily mean evil. It's especially humorous when you interact with various Jedi throughout the story, as playing the level-headed Sith can make some Jedi...let's say...be pushed to the Dark Side in frustration. I think some of the best lines in the game are associated with the Sith making calm, rational remarks to Jedi, in the vein of the Scopes (evolution vs religious idiocy) trial, with the Sith taking the role of rational reasoning, and the Jedi the role of religious idiocy.

I have played my Jedi pure DS, and it's simply nowhere near as fulfilling as playing a LS Sith. Nor is it even remotely as fullfilling as playing a DS Sith. Many Sith are ultimately pragmatists, and take a very enlightened view of the ends justify the means, which can include being nice. The Jedi, on the other hand, are decidedly not open minded.

Last edited by creb; 2011-11-29 at 03:02.
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Old 2011-11-29, 03:12   Link #657
Mr Hat and Clogs
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I was doing that as well with my Sith Sorc, so much so that my DS/LS was something like 600/400 which kept me as neutral. Come live I might go the more LS options since that yeah, it did seem to be more rewarding/amusing to be a Light Sith. "Oh, um, okay. You're letting me go? You are an odd one, for a Sith. Erm, may the force be with you... I guess." - Some Jedi to my Inquisitor. It's nice seeing them flustered, rather then playing up the always chaotic -Disney- evil approach. Though I'm still trying to see how my female agent sleeping with a guy to shut him up and not blow my cover is a light side response. But whatever, she looked really disappointed/disgusted afterwards when she sighed or facepalmed after the screen fade out. I did like playing up to Khem Val's likes at times, he makes good intimidation. Kaliyo is just bloody hilarious too, much possible les-yay fic material there if she is that option for those that write.

I kept coming across items that require DS or LS to use which... I really I hope isn't overly restrictive come live. Also hope it doesn't apply to Operation (raid?) drops, because that would get very very annoying if you didn't have enough standing one way or the other. IMO, the DS/LS stuff which is apparently only cosmetic anyway should be applied automatically depending on what your standing is, and not be arbitrarily restricted. Still have no idea how it applies to abilities like is apparently does though.
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Old 2011-11-29, 03:43   Link #658
kuroishinigami
Ava courtesy of patchy
 
 
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Well, it seems the general consensus is the Sith story is more "fresh" than the Jedi story. I don't really have any problem with the Jedi story though, being the goody two shoes that I am at real life lol.

Anyway, I only have 2 real qualms on beta(granted I only played to level 12).

1. More appearance customization
I hate the fact that neither the male nor the female has long hair option for the appearance.

2. Get a little more consistent with the lore, even if it's just changing the name
The biggest qualm I have is with the saber form. The sentinel's two handed saber form is supposed to be Jar-kai, a variant of Niman(form VII), not Ataru(form V). Make more form available to still be able to keep the advanced class specific saber form and at the same time still having both class has access to enough saber form to deal with different situation. For example, I want Ataru available to both Guardian and Sentinel(since some Guardian like Qui-gon does use Ataru as their main form)
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Old 2011-11-29, 05:28   Link #659
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
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While it may have originated from Niman (Form VI) it is also suppose to be the generic form that used martial arts styles. The one bladed was known as the diplomat's style, while the two bladed is just this with another lightsaber. Ataru (form IV) is more acrobatic in nature. (It should be noted that the fourth form of Lightsaber combat; Ataru; was also known to employ dual blades as part of its training regimen.)

However the Jedi Councilor didn't go into the lightsaber forms from what I recall. i did have a choice at level ten between being more healing/dps with one saber (a jedi sage) or damage/tank? with a double bladed lightsaber (a shadow jedi). The double blade was tempting, but I wasn't sure about the playstyle of a Jedi the fights from the shadows, but uses basically a lightsaber quarterstaff that puts out a lot of light.
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Old 2011-11-29, 05:58   Link #660
kuroishinigami
Ava courtesy of patchy
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
I didn't know that every form has its dual-saber counterpart O_O. Guess I'm still a beginner in star wars lore lol. Then I guess it kind of make sense to have Ataru in Sentinel only since Ataru is supposed to be weak against blaster(weak defense). I actually liked it better the testing phase skill where Soresu and Ataru was a Jedi knight skill which is learnable by both Guardian and Sentinel, while Juyo was Sentinel only skill and Shien is Guardian only skill. The Ataru talent tree kinda force you to use two light saber too since most of the talent there need 2 weapon to activate.

Oh well, there goes my hope of making a Qui-gon Jinn skill set :P. I guess I'll settle making a Guardian with Shien form since Sentinel is too squishy for a beginner like me lol.
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