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Old 2010-07-08, 14:03   Link #181
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Okay, how about an "Aspects of Anime you love, but others hate" Thread...1st up, my great love for emotionally driven power-ups in Shounen (or really any demo) anime/manga .
Hey, count me in on that one. Who could possibly not have a soft spot for that boyishly optimistic belief that a good heart will prevail over raw strength when it's needed the most?
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Old 2010-07-08, 14:23   Link #182
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
In the case of series that are more grim overall like Code Geass, service and some light-hearted humour is needed every now and then. If you make every moment too intense, you will weaken the impact of climactic moments since the mood was on a high anyway. You need to create a lull to enhance those highs and to give the viewer a chance to relax and see the characters in some every day aspects, character development and to feel the rise in the pace and the tension. You can't keep going at a million miles an hour all the times and have everything feel Over 9000 for those reasons. Slower episodes are usually necessary for the WTF revelation at the end of that episode that will have fans talking like mad until the next episode - it will feel that much more important since the episode was leading you to believe it wouldn't be of much importance.

Which leads to my first gripe - 1. Pacing. This can easily kill a show if it's done wrong. Allow the climactic moments to feel that way but don't let the other times feel snail-like. Weave character exposition into scenes were something else is happening - don't let a scene become static. The ending of a series needs to have some major impact. The beginning has to be engaging - set some intrigue and spledour. Series I like will have me sold in 1-2 episodes. Series I don't will lose me within that time usually. If you want a viewer to want your product, get them engaged at the start and maintain it.

2. Prejudice. People of a different race, gender, sexual orientation, political orientationc, etc. that still sits within the boundaries of law, morality and not hurting any one that cares about them - those things are alright. They are not reasons to be hated. Until recently, yuri has been given the 'silly teen fling' or 'this is wrong' treatment. It's being seen in a better light in the last few years. Female characters in general are now being given more prominent roles and males are becoming more varied in personalities. The idea that male characters can only be the 'I'm awesome and I'll conquer the world' or 'I'm spineless yet liked' types is antiquated. Outsider views of anime also disgust me sometimes. That some people think Miyazaki is the only maker of anime that is worth watching or that anime is only hentai/long running shounen series tailored for young kids - that frustrates me.

3. Big star name = only reason to watch. Any industry needs new talent to regularly emerge and provide the industry with more plusses and perspectives. You can't rely on the same old, same old to sell a series/movie. A series not having a high-profile seiyuu shouldn't be a death blow - I get annoyed when seeing comments in various places that a series not being voiced by Rie Kugiyama, Kikuko Inuoe or Yui Horie is instant don't like. Or that it doesn't have a director like Miyazaki or Hideaki Anno. If those views were subscribed to, the good talent that emerges would go unnoticed and eventually the industry would fall. Judge a series by its merits, content and quality.

4. Aloofness. Each to their own. Liking genre A but not genre B doesn't mean that you're automatically better than someone who likes genre B. We're all people with the right to form our own opinions and have our own tastes.

5. Destroying the original manga. Anime series made from a manga that end up being an abomination make me really mad. Hideaki Anno turned Masami Tsuda's manga into an anime that made a mockery of what her title stood for - to the point she barred further material from being made. Yuna Kagesaki's manga Karin (known as Chibi Vampire in the West) was a light-hearted sweet shounen romance that got turned into an ecchifest at the anime level and left her stunned at the results. Saikano's brilliant mix of angst and sexual humour was turned into an emofest at the anime level, utterly ruining the message and vibe Shin Takahashi gave in the manga. The list goes on. Adaptations should consider the original authour's intent to a fair degree.
This.

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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Character Balancing and Focus

The thing that annoys me the most that some popular characters completely overtake the manga because the author loves them too much or just something to place the fans. Usually when you have a lot characters, some characters especiially in shonen get shafted or just plain never seen again. Some manga such as Negima are able to focus on a lot of characters although it isn't completely free from the 'Put on the Bus' thing, it was very well done when it came to giving an equal amount focus to the many characters in the manga. The author/writer should give focus to the other characters in their work and not a few characters carry the manga but also not abuse the characters to the point where the suffer derailment.
And this... because usually it's my favorite who gets shafted for another character that I don't care about.

These are just a few things that I dislike though... there's much more. Though if I start now then I'm just going to go into a disorganized tangent and I'll fail to make any point whatsoever. So I'm just going to agree with what other people say since I don't think I can summon the right words to use myself. >w>;
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Old 2010-07-08, 15:01   Link #183
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Seriously though, this thread has degenerated even further than the last time I posted here. That just goes to show how silly these "Hate" Threads really are...Maybe I should start an "Aspects of Anime you love to Hate" Thread...wait that's this thread. Okay, how about an "Aspects of Anime you love, but others hate" Thread...1st up, my great love for emotionally driven power-ups in Shounen (or really any demo) anime/manga .
There's some bizarre arguments that have come on here, lol.

But yes, despite all the shounen bashing I love to give, a well done emotionally driven power up (Yu Yu Hakusho is one my favs ) is nice, but only if it represents a turning point and not an immediate win.

On the other hand, I generally accentuate the negative even on shows I like.
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Old 2010-07-08, 17:48   Link #184
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I'll go out on a limb and guess that there has been a spurt of hate-trolling by non-fans on the K-On! forums or something like that, which is probably annoying. I've always kept away from posting negative thoughts on dedicated series threads/subforums, as I've always considered them fan-havens. However, it's hard to read this discussion and not feel like there's some heavy overreaction (lashing back) going on. It certainly seems like you're projecting a certain preconception onto Triple-R and then interpreting everything he says through that, which is a bit unfair/rude.
What I find strange is his insistence on sticking to that conception no matter what - there are perfectly serviceable arguments against K-On being "100% concentrated moe" that don't require accusing the poster of using the word moe as a method of trolling.

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Originally Posted by Felix
No. He's using it as the premise and conclusion to his argument. Its not like he has a argument and the word just happens to be in one sentences.
Little FYI: your argument is based on the premise that Triple_R is choosing a word with a vague meaning to be able to say that the show contained it.

However, having actually debated the definition of moe with Triple_R, I can say pretty definitively he has one of the most specific definitions of moe you'll find out there: he basically sees a moe character as a cute girl with an unjaded personality. That's pretty darn close to the original meaning of the term moe in anime circles (combination of words for "budding/blossoming" and "burning" - hence, a "blossoming" girl who evokes "burning passion" (generally via cuteness) - Triple_R interprets the "blossoming" bit as meaning "not afflicted with cynicism" because of the association of flower blossoms with purity). It's actually more specific than the contemporary definition, which emphasizes that the character "evokes burning passion" and reduces the "blossoming" part to basically ensuring that said character isn't past her prime (I was going to be more specific with the age range, then I remembered the MILF characters in Key games are generally considered moe...). That's not surprising since Triple_R's objection to the contemporary definition is that it's too vague and applicable to too many personality types.

(Well, the Japanese contemporary definition is arguably too vague. I'd argue many of the contemporary English conceptions of what a moe character is are way too narrow, since most emphasize traits associated with moe rather than moe itself - and nobody bothered to actually check that these traits were drawn from a broad range of moe characters.)

And K-On! is certainly choke full of moe by Triple_R's definition - pretty much every character in the show is a cute teenage girl with an unjaded personality. Which is made pretty obvious in the show's marketing.
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Old 2010-07-08, 20:15   Link #185
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I just want to confirm that 0utf0xZer0 very nicely summed up my view on "moe".

Part of why I like "moe" is that cynicism is fairly common in entertainment, and to some extents in real life, these days, so coming across a genuinely unjaded and cheerfully optimistic character (Noe from True Tears is a great example here) is often refreshingly different to me. When such characters are thrown into danger, it tends to have that "desire to protect" effect on me, that many says stands for "moe".

By this measure, the entire lead cast of K-On! are indeed moe. So, my thinking is this: if the entire lead cast of a show were all Gundam pilots, would it be fair to call the anime a "mecha" anime? I think so, and so I think that the same standard should apply to a show where the entire lead cast of a show are moe.
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Old 2010-07-08, 23:25   Link #186
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Although I'm not much for arguments about definitions of otaku subcultures, I have to say that if the whole moe/otaku thing was just about cheerfully optimistic characters, I'd probably watch a whole lot more of them....unfortunately it's the other baggage that I don't particularly care for (some of which can be deduced from a somewhat negative reading of the post above yours).
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Old 2010-07-09, 07:44   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
Although I'm not much for arguments about definitions of otaku subcultures, I have to say that if the whole moe/otaku thing was just about cheerfully optimistic characters, I'd probably watch a whole lot more of them....unfortunately it's the other baggage that I don't particularly care for (some of which can be deduced from a somewhat negative reading of the post above yours).
This moe=otaku equivalence is one of the things I getting really annoyed at. A moe character is essentially just a cute character with a friendly-ish personality, whose primary (physical) appeal comes from cuteness instead of sexy. But for some reason, moe is automatically connected to the extreme fringes of otaku. To be fair, most of the shows targeted to those fringes are filled with moe characters. But associating all shows with a moe cast to those fringes is just wrong.

@Triple_R:
Your example is kinda off. If a show is filled with gundam pilots but does not contain an actual gundam, it won't be a mecha show. You need actual mecha to be a mecha show. It'll just be a bishonen show, a better term to equate with "moe show".
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Old 2010-07-09, 09:02   Link #188
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Originally Posted by krko View Post
This moe=otaku equivalence is one of the things I getting really annoyed at. A moe character is essentially just a cute character with a friendly-ish personality, whose primary (physical) appeal comes from cuteness instead of sexy. But for some reason, moe is automatically connected to the extreme fringes of otaku. To be fair, most of the shows targeted to those fringes are filled with moe characters. But associating all shows with a moe cast to those fringes is just wrong.

@Triple_R:
Your example is kinda off. If a show is filled with gundam pilots but does not contain an actual gundam, it won't be a mecha show. You need actual mecha to be a mecha show. It'll just be a bishonen show, a better term to equate with "moe show".
Er, I thought it would be implicitly understood that my example would include those Gundam pilots using actual Gundams. My example was inspired by Gundam Wing, by the way.

And I agree with you that a person can like moe without being part of the "extreme fringes of otaku".
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Old 2010-07-09, 09:51   Link #189
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Er, I thought it would be implicitly understood that my example would include those Gundam pilots using actual Gundams. My example was inspired by Gundam Wing, by the way.

And I agree with you that a person can like moe without being part of the "extreme fringes of otaku".
What I meant was using a property associated with the characters is a rather weak way of determine a show's genre. In your example you don't classify a show as mecha because its characters are mecha pilots, you classify it as mecha because of the actual mecha. Similarly, if you try to classify all shows with primarily moe characters as moe shows, you'd end up grouping Haruhi with Hayate no Gotoku, Clannad, Toradora, Saki, Railgun, K-On, Zero no Tsukaima, Strike Witches, Higurashi, and more. At that point, the definition becomes too inclusive so it ends up useless. (This, I guess caused the recent perception of that there is a flood of moe series that's choking out other genres, when in fact, most of those seires are in quite distinct genres) Moe is better used as a sub-genre than a primary genre.
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Old 2010-07-09, 10:05   Link #190
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Originally Posted by krko View Post
What I meant was using a property associated with the characters is a rather weak way of determine a show's genre. In your example you don't classify a show as mecha because its characters are mecha pilots, you classify it as mecha because of the actual mecha. Similarly, if you try to classify all shows with primarily moe characters as moe shows, you'd end up grouping Haruhi with Hayate no Gotoku, Clannad, Toradora, Saki, Railgun, K-On, Zero no Tsukaima, Strike Witches, Higurashi, and more. At that point, the definition becomes too inclusive so it ends up useless. (This, I guess caused the recent perception of that there is a flood of moe series that's choking out other genres, when in fact, most of those seires are in quite distinct genres) Moe is better used as a sub-genre than a primary genre.
I somewhat disagree.

Most, if not all, of the animes you listed there have non-moe characters amongst the primary cast. Haruhi's anime has Kyon and Koizumi. Clannad has Tomoya and Sunohara. These characters add a non-moe element into the animes that they are in, and hence render moe a sub-genre for these shows.

But moe really does work as the primary genre for K-On! as the entire primary cast of that anime are moe.

If an entire primary cast of characters for a show all fit into a particular character type, then I think its quite reasonable, and not "rather weak" whatsoever, to infer what the genre of the show is from that character type.
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Old 2010-07-09, 10:25   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I somewhat disagree.

Most, if not all, of the animes you listed there have non-moe characters amongst the primary cast. Haruhi's anime has Kyon and Koizumi. Clannad has Tomoya and Sunohara. These characters add a non-moe element into the animes that they are in, and hence render moe a sub-genre for these shows.

But moe really does work as the primary genre for K-On! as the entire primary cast of that anime are moe.

If an entire primary cast of characters for a show all fit into a particular character type, then I think its quite reasonable, and not "rather weak" whatsoever, to infer what the genre of the show is from that character type.
I just really don't like using characters as basis for classifying a show, since doing so causes the broad genres of bishonen, bishoujo, and of course moe. I'd class K-On more as a comedy first before moe.
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Old 2010-07-09, 10:45   Link #192
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Quote:
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I just really don't like using characters as basis for classifying a show, since doing so causes the broad genres of bishonen, bishoujo, and of course moe. I'd class K-On more as a comedy first before moe.
Well, generally speaking, I'd say that moe works better as a subgenre, yes.

And comedy could work as the primary genre of K-On!
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Old 2010-07-09, 11:02   Link #193
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This moe=otaku equivalence is one of the things I getting really annoyed at......But for some reason, moe is automatically connected to the extreme fringes of otaku.
Why "extreme fringes"? I didn't think it was a shock that the otaku demographic is the target market for moe shows? There are definitely patterns among demographics, and I don't think it's a stretch to say what the otaku demographic likes to see is a little more specific.

Quote:
A moe character is essentially just a...
Everyone has their way of looking at things. If fans of these shows don't agree on one of way of describing their appeal, surely it's not strange that others would too. I just happen to have a more negative interpretation than you do.
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Old 2010-07-09, 13:51   Link #194
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Most, if not all, of the animes you listed there have non-moe characters amongst the primary cast. Haruhi's anime has Kyon and Koizumi. Clannad has Tomoya and Sunohara. These characters add a non-moe element into the animes that they are in, and hence render moe a sub-genre for these shows.

But moe really does work as the primary genre for K-On! as the entire primary cast of that anime are moe.
Sawa, Azusa, Riichi, Megumi, Satoshi, Ui and Manabe (probably more) all share similar personalities to the ones you mentioned as non-moe characters that make all the difference.
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I didn't think it was a shock that the otaku demographic is the target market for moe shows?
K-on (last I checked) airs on close to 30 channels. Which is a absurd number. Contrary to what conception you have K-on is among the normal ones. Of course you don't see most of these normal ones fansubbed, since they are not really otaku friendly; particularly when it comes to western otaku.

From what I get from discussion here and other boards you all have it in your heads as long as its not at something like 04:00 in the morning its not otaku. Have you ever considered normal (non "otaku") people have jobs. Jobs that take up part of their day, and also mean they need to go to sleep early to wake up the next day? From my understanding a lot of shows (that get fansubbed) don't even broadcast on the free channels.

Otakus are considered extreme not because they like anime (or whatever), its because of the implications that come with it.
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Old 2010-07-09, 13:57   Link #195
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Old 2010-07-09, 14:02   Link #196
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Old 2010-07-09, 14:13   Link #197
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Contrary to what conception you have K-on is among the normal ones. Of course you don't see most of these normal ones fansubbed, since they are not really otaku friendly; particularly when it comes to western otaku.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but I think it's pretty off-base to suggest that K-On is not "otaku friendly", considering that is its target market. That would be why it consistently is voted popular in surveys by magazines or websites aimed at the otaku market. The word "otaku" itself can be applied to any topic, but when applied on these forums, people usually mean it to describe the Akiba-kei-type subculture, which is a more specific subculture than how the word is used over here (generally just to mean 'anime fan'). Most of Kyoto Animation's popular, recent productions are aimed at this demographic.
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Old 2010-07-09, 14:25   Link #198
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No you missread what I said. I said K-on was part of the normal ones, and that the normal ones are not otaku friendly (mostly).

Popularity? Popularity polls just simply depend on who you ask. Just like viewer ratings depend on the channel (really don't see where you're trying to go with all this).

Otaku shows and normal shows are not mutually exclusive. Your claims (if they are true) just prove what I was saying, that K-on is among the normal ones. If it was how you all are saying then it would be only popular among otaku and hence be lower on the polls.
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Old 2010-07-09, 14:35   Link #199
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Still not entirely clear on what you're trying to say, but what I actually said was that these types of shows (I gave KyoAni's popular shows an example) generally rank high on otaku-aimed surveys (those done in magazines or websites aimed at that demographic) because that is their primary market. Maybe you think I'm using the term "otaku" as an insult rather than a description of a particular anime subculture (hence your comparison with "normal anime" - whatever that means), which I am not.
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Old 2010-07-09, 15:03   Link #200
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lol, a few posts ago you were using otaku as "moe loving" maniacs. Can you give me the links to the magazines websites so I can tell what kind they are.

Anyway, let's see,
  • your telling me K-on is (the most) popular with these normal "otaku"
  • hence, its an extreme "otaku" show
Is that it? (since that's how I read your argument)

If you're refering to (extreme) "otaku" magazines then no that doesn't make K-on a extreme otaku show, it means it pleases the entire demographic. At least that much we can deduce from the statistic. If its a general purpose (normal) magazine just asking the question as part of other trivia then its like I said above: if K-on was the extreme show you make it out to be then it would not be ranked as #1 as you claim.

ps. by normal I mean non-NEET/hikimori/etc; the type that doesn't hate anime nor treat anime as a job.
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