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Old 2013-04-12, 08:26   Link #541
backbone
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^Vast majority of shounen action protagonists is always plagued by Deus ex Machina (with Bleach as the worst offender), hence being overpowered compared to the rest of casts is pretty much inevitable
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Old 2013-04-12, 12:38   Link #542
GreyZone
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Another thing:

Isn't it a bit too conveniant, that the new enemies always somehow are very close in terms of skill level, or at least at one where the protagonist is "just at the last moment" able to match the new villain?

Example: Imagine in Dragon Ball that someone like Cell or Majin Boo appeard, before Goku defeated Radditz... I know, I know, there would be no story and this does not just apply to anime, but it is annoying nontheless, don't you agree?
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Old 2013-04-12, 13:35   Link #543
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Example: Imagine in Dragon Ball that someone like Cell or Majin Boo appeard, before Goku defeated Radditz... I know, I know, there would be no story and this does not just apply to anime, but it is annoying nontheless, don't you agree?
I watch DBZ for plot, character development, and consistency.
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Old 2013-04-12, 13:38   Link #544
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OP main protagonists.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:37   Link #545
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Originally Posted by Write View Post
If I go play ball with my kids at a park exclusively for children, am I a manchild for enjoying myself?
What if I say, yes? - As you can see, it all depends on who you ask what.
And there will always be at least some people who will think of you as a "manchild" just because "you often go play ball with your kids at a park exclusively for children". Can you blame them?

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Let's make this example very extreme (who knows, maybe it's even true XD):
i hate first person shooters because there are potential real life killers playing them.
Not sure on what basis you're saying that "it's potentially true", since that statement has been proven false many and many times already by plentiful of unbiased studies on the subject.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:44   Link #546
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post

Not sure on what basis you're saying that "it's potentially true", since that statement has been proven false many and many times already by plentiful of unbiased studies on the subject.
I was exaggerating for the same reasons why he hated anime because of a small group of people whom he called "manchildren"
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:55   Link #547
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
What if I say, yes? - As you can see, it all depends on who you ask what.
And there will always be at least some people who will think of you as a "manchild" just because "you often go play ball with your kids at a park exclusively for children". Can you blame them?
Yes I blame them because its logically incorrect. If this was the only place I played ball, had no adult friends, and generally acted like a kid myself then the situation is different.
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Old 2013-04-12, 16:51   Link #548
Dahak86
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Originally Posted by Write View Post
If this was the only place I played ball, had no adult friends, and generally acted like a kid myself then the situation is different.
That would only make the situation worse, but the "manchild" label doesn't simply stem out from the mere fact that you've been seen playing ball with kids in a kids' park - it's the "enjoyment" the problem. The fact you seem to enjoy the whole deal (which you really shouldn't) earns you the "manchild" label.

Why go to a kids' park just to play with your kids, when you could go out with your oh-so-many adult mates after all?
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Last edited by Dahak86; 2013-04-12 at 17:10.
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Old 2013-04-12, 17:05   Link #549
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I hate fan bashing. People often use it to indirectly bash a show instead of criticizing it on its own merits.

It's a typical tactic of the intellectually dishonest that are not able to stand on their merits, so they'd rather cowardly strike out strawmen. Indeed, you will see people write loads of tl;dr bs about how an anime appeals to hairy unwashed otaku while just slightly implying that anyone that shares the same interest must be correlated to it. As if their points were self-evident to begin with.

A contains elements of Z
B contains elements of Z
Therefore A = B

In case you failed logic class, this isn't true.

Also, I see a difference between my perception that certain writers and studios treat the fans in a condescending fashionas if they were stupid, as opposed to the fans actually being stupid. And that being said would be what I hate the most-- if I ever get that perception on a show, it usually dies on me very fast.
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Old 2013-04-12, 20:07   Link #550
Write
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I hate fan bashing. People often use it to indirectly bash a show instead of criticizing it on its own merits.

It's a typical tactic of the intellectually dishonest that are not able to stand on their merits, so they'd rather cowardly strike out strawmen. Indeed, you will see people write loads of tl;dr bs about how an anime appeals to hairy unwashed otaku while just slightly implying that anyone that shares the same interest must be correlated to it. As if their points were self-evident to begin with.

A contains elements of Z
B contains elements of Z
Therefore A = B

In case you failed logic class, this isn't true.

Also, I see a difference between my perception that certain writers and studios treat the fans in a condescending fashionas if they were stupid, as opposed to the fans actually being stupid. And that being said would be what I hate the most-- if I ever get that perception on a show, it usually dies on me very fast.
Agreed, hiding behind a veil of "intellect" against someone else's opinion is also cowardly. You can disagree and feel irritated all you like but you can't place yourself above someone else's feelings, it's an opinion. You know what I'm saying?

Last edited by Write; 2013-04-12 at 20:32.
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Old 2013-04-12, 23:04   Link #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Another thing:

Isn't it a bit too conveniant, that the new enemies always somehow are very close in terms of skill level, or at least at one where the protagonist is "just at the last moment" able to match the new villain?

Example: Imagine in Dragon Ball that someone like Cell or Majin Boo appeard, before Goku defeated Radditz... I know, I know, there would be no story and this does not just apply to anime, but it is annoying nontheless, don't you agree?
It's even worse when the main character has to do a training montage to beat his new foe! Especially when that character is a certain "shinigami" and his training consists of really doing jack shit and then getting his ass kicked until his enemies stop taking him seriously, THEN HE STRIKES!
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
I watch DBZ for plot, character development, and consistency.
I've done rounds with people who think that DBZ characters worked exclusively on plot armor. I give DBZ credit because when their characters want to be more powerful, they actually train their minds and bodies for it. This is the one thing that always bothered me about the way people talk about the show. If you really take the time to look back at the DBZ series, I'd wager that far more than a quarter of all its episodes involve characters training their skills in some way. I hate it when people treat it as the poster child for characters who use plot armor and other writer tricks to gain power. They're thinking of Bleach.
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Old 2013-04-12, 23:14   Link #552
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
-snip-
When we are talking about THE most powerful anime characters in history (modern action anime MC's can't claim of annihilating ENTIRE planets without breaking a sweat), you can expect a lot of "plot armor" accusations".

To execute training arcs properly, great care should be taken in showing the progress of the character's training. It may feel cheap if the character suddenly takes down the opponent in one shot (this is probably what Bleach is notorious for), and TOO LONG battles can bore the audience to death (which was the problem for Dragon Ball and One Piece).

And speaking of One Piece, I think this is one of the shows where they did a badass MC right (unlike a certain black swordsman). The Straw Hats become stronger and stronger, but they still can't beat the top tier characters all of a sudden; they have to train hard for that. Sure, battles are still long and drawn-out, but I never called cheap on any of One Piece's battles.

As for a noob MC defeating an experienced villain, there's the saying that goes, "The fool should not fear you because he doesn't know what you can do, you should fear the fool because you don't know what he can do."
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Old 2013-04-12, 23:24   Link #553
Traece
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
When we are talking about THE most powerful anime characters in history (modern action anime MC's can't claim of destroying planets without breaking a sweat), you can expect a lot of "plot armor" accusations".

To execute training arcs properly, great care should be taken in showing the progress of the character's training. It may feel cheap if the character suddenly takes down the opponent in one shot (this is probably what Bleach is notorious for), and TOO LONG battles can bore the audience to death (which was the problem for Dragon Ball and One Piece).
In my mind what Bleach is notorious for is a complete lack of consistency or really any attempt to progress the characters' power through normal means. You rarely see any characters actually train their skills, or gain powers through any truly normal means. Often what you see instead is characters having a power-up written around them, and then pushed into the story like it was always a thing. It gets to the point where well over a hundred episodes in Ichigo is suddenly introduced to some society of something that's "always existed" but conveniently was never mentioned despite him being of their ranks and them living in the same town as him. If that was the author's intention, for it to have existed this whole time, they did a terrible job of giving them any presence. The story overall is filled with these sorts of issues.

I'm required to give a bit of love to Fairy Tail on this note as well. For all my love of the series, I have to admit that the characters do tend to plot armor their way through life a bit. On the flip side though, I give the series a lot of credit because the characters also distinguish themselves by using actual intelligence (yeah, they use their brains from time to time. I know, right?!) to win battles. So where the series has a lacking in character power development, it sort of makes up for it in giving the characters reasoning skills and the ability to actually adapt in battle. To the credit of the characters, they also tend to be aware of their own shortcomings and work to overcome them either on the spot, or over time. While the series may not have much character training, the progression is still implied in one way or another, and the author often recreates a scene from the past in the present climate of the series with a different outcome to show that the characters have indeed become stronger.
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Old 2013-04-12, 23:31   Link #554
judasmartel
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
-snip-
Is it safe to say that Fairy Tail took a different character development route than one would usually expect from an action series?

Lesson learned from your comment: Power is useless if you're too dumb to use it. Skill trumps Power any day.
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Old 2013-04-13, 00:11   Link #555
Traece
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Is it safe to say that Fairy Tail took a different character development route than one would usually expect from an action series?

Lesson learned from your comment: Power is useless if you're too dumb to use it. Skill trumps Power any day.
It's a bit like Naruto in some ways. Characters in Naruto would sometimes use their brains in combat and use their opponents' weaknesses to gain an advantage. That series also has a lot of training to develop character power. I give Naruto a lot of credit because for all of Naruto's sucking at being a ninja, everyone else does a decent job of actually progressing like normal people. Fairy Tail isn't quite Naruto or DBZ in that sense, but it does make some effort to display proper progression (and again, isn't as dependent on plot armor as people accuse it of being).

Where Fairy Tail really shines is the continuously evolving plot. One thing I do hate about anime that this provides a great segue for, is that there are a lot of anime that use the "story arc" format without really integrating it into the main plot. Just because the characters are getting involved in a sort of an episodic arc of plot, it doesn't mean that the plot can't be related to the overall story. I've seen that outside of fillers before, and it's just ugly. Ultimately you should almost never have sections of your plot that can be discarded. Even if the role it plays is very small, every arc should really reflect on the life of the characters, the world, or the primary plot.
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Old 2013-04-13, 00:16   Link #556
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
-snip-
OTOH, it became apparent that Kishi LOVES the Uchiha clan, so he made Sharingan as powerful as possible, and that ticked a lot of people (me included).

If you're going to buff a certain ability, make sure it stays consistent within the story universe. Case in point: The Great Snake Escape.

At least Naruto and the gang worked hard to be what they are now, even though the Kyuubi's power can be plot armor-worthy at times.
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Old 2013-04-13, 00:38   Link #557
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I hate fan bashing. People often use it to indirectly bash a show instead of criticizing it on its own merits.

It's a typical tactic of the intellectually dishonest that are not able to stand on their merits, so they'd rather cowardly strike out strawmen. Indeed, you will see people write loads of tl;dr bs about how an anime appeals to hairy unwashed otaku while just slightly implying that anyone that shares the same interest must be correlated to it. As if their points were self-evident to begin with.
This kind of argument also annoys me a lot. I've read some harsh criticisms of K-On!, Love Live!, and some other moe-oriented shows that weren't really valid criticisms of those shows at all - Just criticisms of their target audience.

Which I frankly think is a totally illegitimate way to go about things. It would be like calling Star Trek trash just because some of the most hardcore Trekkies cross the line sometimes and get a bit too obsessed with it.

I'm sympathetic to people who just don't like moe. Or who just don't life "fluff". But arguing that an anime show is trash just because you dislike its target audience is really intellectually lazy, let alone intellectually dishonest.
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:32   Link #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
TJust criticisms of their target audience.
Totally agree with Triple R... its the audience particular the fans who corrupts the decency of a particular anime... delusional and delusional speculations based of fictional hints are sh!T...
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:39   Link #559
Traece
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Totally agree with Triple R... its the audience particular the fans who corrupts the decency of a particular anime... delusional and delusional speculations based of fictional hints are sh!T...
Audiences are powerful in any respect. I feel like this kind of discussion would make for a great meta-esque topic, but the issue is that it'll devolve into flaming and insults (as it kind of did for a short while).

I got Tales of Vesperia in from Gamefly (yes it's a video game. It's called a segue, sheesh) and it made me think a bit about character interaction.

The characters in Tales of Vesperia have really great chemistry. They have fantastic dialogue with each other and their relationships just work so well. This kind of fits with my love of Maou-sama where the characters have this great chemistry and this wonderful dialogue that really fits and adds to the series as a whole.

So with that having been said, I really hate how so many anime don't give you that chemistry. I feel like it's a rare thing to see characters that have genuinely great chemistry with one another. Characters that you can legitimately see being good friends. Basically nothing like Naruto, or Sasuke, or pink-haired girl whose name I've suddenly forgotten (conveniently).
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Old 2013-04-13, 04:27   Link #560
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
A
So with that having been said, I really hate how so many anime don't give you that chemistry. I feel like it's a rare thing to see characters that have genuinely great chemistry with one another. Characters that you can legitimately see being good friends. Basically nothing like Naruto, or Sasuke, or pink-haired girl whose name I've suddenly forgotten (conveniently).
True.. most love pairing are forced and are pretty obvious at the very beginning... they but their are just moments that they don't seem to connect at all or connect to a particular person ( specially of harem ( I find these in an anime like Boku Tomodachi... man.. I don't know whether shipping has any point in that series....
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