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Old 2010-07-25, 13:36   Link #541
Shiek927
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Fukitsu while I thank you for defending me...when I read that post I thought it was directed at kenshin...:/

I take no personal offense for anything these two(cyclone and kenshin) numbskulls said in their argument or in that they started because of my post. I feel obligated however to tell you that I am promptly staying out of it because it has apparently ended on its own: kenshin is talking about the game and so am I.

Forget about it let's just move to something worth talking about
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:15   Link #542
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Forget about it let's just move to something worth talking about
-Indeed. One thing I am a bit vexed with at the moment is Clare's merger with the Destroyer. Since she is now a part of it, can it be safe to assume that she is an Awakened Being herself? But the 1st time she recovered from it awakening she was nude (like other ABs) but had not reverted to her original hair/eye colour. But maybe the Destroyer is special since it was stated that it does not need to eat living beings (flesh and guts in this case), but it just causes destruction? So when Clare inevitably returns, maybe she won't need to either?

-Actually looking back, the Destroyer has not shown any regard for devouring things at all. It shows no sense of self or any other form of intelligence. Maybe that's why Clare can cause it to attack Priscilla and possibly tame it?
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:16   Link #543
MalakTawus
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I don't know, even as a human priscilla was IMO somehow twisted because i think that she murdered theresa as a human being and not as an awakened.
This is like saying that Claire stabbed Jean as a human being......
When Prissy murdered Teresa she had obviously already losed her mind,negating this is pure nonsense imo.
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:25   Link #544
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
When Prissy murdered Teresa she had obviously already losed her mind,negating this is pure nonsense imo.
-Granted but its not like Priscilla was mentaly stable to begin with. Even when working with the Organization she showed a very inflexible (black and white) view on all things, which bordered on fanaticism. It only got worse because she could not accept her defeat at Teresa's hands (someone she considered evil) which was the trigger to her awakening.
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Old 2010-07-25, 14:31   Link #545
MalakTawus
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Granted but its not like Priscilla was mentaly stable to begin with.
Yes,but that doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be saved,afterall the reason that she was mentally instable is 'cause she was a victim too.
And anyway before fear triggered her instability she was quite normal (a bit obsessed with juistice,but nothing really crazy).
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:00   Link #546
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
Yes,but that doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be saved,afterall the reason that she was mentally instable is 'cause she was a victim too.
-Define "saved". I mean, do you want her to recover her senses somehow and join with the Ghosts against the Organization or do you want her fate to be similar to Ophelia? Or do you want her final act of redemption (if it is possible) to come from self-sacrifice after coming to terms with what she's done? Victim though she may well be, one cannot deny she ended a lot of lives (off screen), so its a bit of a mixed bag.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:33   Link #547
MalakTawus
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Imo it doesn't really matter how she'll be saved (IF she'll be saved),my point is that even if her awakend being is evil (well,from an human point of veiw,afterall even as an AB Yagi has never shown her attack first.....and about the humans that she eats,well she has to eat to survive.....) i can't see her as a completely evil being 'cause imo she has an innocent side as well.
It's true that she ended a lot of lives,but she did so in awakend form,so if Claire hypothetically menages to turn her back from her awakening i think she deserves a second chance.
Even Claire or anyone in the ghosts if awaken could kill a lot of people,but that doesn't make them necessarily evil IMO.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:39   Link #548
haegar
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well yagi blurring the boundaries between good and evil has always been on of the points I liked a lot about claymore in general. I have every confidence he'll keep on twisting that angle in ever surpising new ways when it comes to finally resolving the clare/prissy clash.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:43   Link #549
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Ever heard of something called "Freedom of Speech"? And before you start jumping on that claiming "But you're attacking my freedom to hate Raki", let's get something out of the way right now: I do not care that you hate Raki. You are free to hate him as much as you want. My post to you was a mere notice of certain holes in your arguments that cause you to lose validity in the views you are trying to promote. You know, holes like these here:
*sigh*
Discussing this with you has become rather unpleasant since you seem to be unrelenting with your silly "holier than thou" & "thou should do so-and-so" stances. In these past few posts, I have not stated why I dislike Raki, nor do I care to (as people who's opinions I actually respect would probably not enjoy me re-treading over that old ground again - we've covered that in some of the chapter threads where Raki actually appeared, and have agreed to disagree). Thus, since I'm not presenting any facts, finding holes in my argument should not be that difficult for anybody (congratulations - well done!).

As for the validity of my views that you seem so concerned about (thank you - how terribly sweet of you)... I tried to be delicate in my previous post, but if I must say it, then fine: I simply don't care what YOU think of my views or if you think they are valid. People who know me here have had a long enough track record with my posts that they have made up their minds about my posts long ago, and it's their views I value - not yours (yet).

Quote:
-Stop. Right. There. I don't expect you to like Raki. I don't even expect my posts to change your opinion about him. What I do expect from you is a level of understanding that all opinions are subjective personal preferences and that not one opinion is more correct than another. As such, there is no "only one opinion is correct, all others are false". Look back a bit; in all of the posts I've made, have I ever said that you are wrong in thinking that Raki is horrible? I certainly don't think I have because I would remeber otherwise. The only time I said anything in regards to Raki's current popularity is when I explained why I like him so much. Beyond that, I said nothing.
Nothing expect that I should keep my mouth shut about Raki being what he is. I really don't like being told what to do (especially from someone I don't know).

Quote:
-Have I not already addressed to you that nobody here cares about your reputation on these forums? Reputation is your responsibility. How well or poorly you maintain it is entirely reflective upon your own posts and actions. If something is happening to it and you do not like it, then it is your own fault. Do not try to blame others for your misfortune because I do not think anybody here will agree that it is their fault instead and not yours.
You have a very poor understanding of what I said. I am not whining about my reputation (lol - my "misfortune"). What I am saying is that conformance to a "Raki is heaven's gift to the masses" viewpoint is enforced on this forum (through nagging arguments and neg rep). Thus the lack of many other people having opposition posts to Raki is not all that surprising to me.
No worries - no amount of nagging and neg rep will change my mind about him - Yagi himself will have to work a miracle first.

Quote:
-That is your comment directed at Shiek927 specifically.
Shieky can take care of himself from this numbskull's words . I was merely reminding him that not everyone shares his opinions. Then you decided to jump in and complain that my credibility is in danger by saying what i think of Raki. Very nice of you I suppose, but rest assured, next time I have fears about my credibility in your eyes, I'll be sure to message you right away (make sure to check regularly!).

Quote:
-Even jokes can be misinterperted and considered offensive. Apply some caution when you want to use them is all I am saying.
*groan*
Uh huh... yes dear! I'll be sure to ask for permission first next time.

Since you seem to be giving me so many fine pointers from what I'm sure is your rich life experience about how I should live my life and how I should interact with other people, I'd feel amiss to not try to reciprocate by sharing some of my own admittedly limited experience. Clearly, it'll not be up to your level, but, alas: "Don't give people you don't know the power to offend you". I found it to serve me well in university, grad school, and during my working life now too.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:51   Link #550
revan5
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I take it the Raki hater vs. Raki lover war is back on then. Tis a shame. I had hoped me and Haegar could discuss something else like what the heck is going on in Rabona, why we deserve more Miria/Galatea nude bath scenes, and how to convince manga publishers they're going about it all wrong. I guess you can't always have what you want.
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Old 2010-07-25, 15:56   Link #551
Cyclone
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Oh, I'd be more than happy to end it. I'm not planning on replying again.

Personally, I find it a travesty that chapter 100 was not a full color Galatea-sama swimsuit issue, and that Galatea-sama appeared so little in the artbook. I think Duff appeared more times than her. Sometimes I think Yagi-sensei under appreciates her.
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:01   Link #552
[thousandmaster]
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Oh, I'd be more than happy to end it. I'm not planning on replying again.
Sure hope so. that includes the raki bashing to, right?

When is the next chapter going to be released?
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:10   Link #553
Cyclone
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Heh - well, I can hardly promise that...
I'll try not to be the first to bring it up though
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:12   Link #554
evil_kenshin
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
Imo it doesn't really matter how she'll be saved (IF she'll be saved),my point is that even if her awakend being is evil (well,from an human point of veiw,afterall even as an AB Yagi has never shown her attack first.....and about the humans that she eats,well she has to eat to survive.....) i can't see her as a completely evil being 'cause imo she has an innocent side as well.
It's true that she ended a lot of lives,but she did so in awakend form,so if Claire hypothetically menages to turn her back from her awakening i think she deserves a second chance.
Even Claire or anyone in the ghosts if awaken could kill a lot of people,but that doesn't make them necessarily evil IMO.
Yea Riful said it best, that like how humans eat cows yet we don't view it as evil; AB's eating people are not necessary evil (though ones who needlessly kill people for fun though cross the line)
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:14   Link #555
haegar
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
I think Duff appeared more times than her. Sometimes I think Yagi-sensei under appreciates her.

doh. I missed that catastrophic blunder so far. NOW, for the first time, I am rly vexed with yagi. How can he have the indecency to put Dauff's butt over Galatea's cahrming features? That is Kubo style fan-trolling

Well, nontheless will order the artbook as soon as I have some cash to spare XD
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Old 2010-07-25, 16:17   Link #556
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Originally Posted by evil_kenshin View Post
Yea Riful said it best, that like how humans eat cows yet we don't view it as evil; AB's eating people are not necessary evil (though ones who needlessly kill people for fun though cross the line)
-Sadly that way of thinking if often said by the more dominant party. If cows could strike back, you can bet we'd be on their massive hit-list. Granted we never do see ABs feed on humans (on screen anyway), but regardless they seem to really attack "live" pray and eat them in that state. In the end, it really all falls upon perspective. But I think ABs are a bit more at fault because they can think and make decisions, just like humans. But if you masquerade as a human, then you might as well follow the rules of one.
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Last edited by Luminion Lancer; 2010-08-04 at 17:10.
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Old 2010-07-25, 18:31   Link #557
revan5
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Originally Posted by evil_kenshin View Post
Yea Riful said it best, that like how humans eat cows yet we don't view it as evil; AB's eating people are not necessary evil (though ones who needlessly kill people for fun though cross the line)
I would imagine the reason why we view Awakened Beings as evil is because they are eating our own kind, and we, unlike cows, are sentient beings. If cows had invented their own languages, created their own bovine tech, and were as sentient as us, chances are much higher people would view us eating them as "evil". You'll notice that unlike cattle, hunting creatures like elephants is viewed as "evil". Oh sure, you could have elephant farms (which would be rather difficult), but their innate intelligence gives them a more sympathetic treatment than dull cows.

As the saying goes, "An elephant never forgets". You'll notice there tends to be a correlation between a creature's intelligence and us eating it. Oh sure, dogs get eaten in some cultures and are plenty smart, but many find that appalling. When people start treating animals like individuals instead of "mere animals", that's when you notice the morality difference.

BTW, anyone ever notice there's hardly any wildlife in the Claymore world? Where are the deer? Heck, we haven't even seen cattle or cows have we? The only creatures aside from Dragonkin we've yet seen are horses. It makes you wonder if Awakened Beings would prefer cows over people. I know with the amount of meat involved, it would make sense to eat cows first. Perhaps they eat people because other food sources are unavailable.
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Old 2010-07-25, 18:55   Link #558
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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
BTW, anyone ever notice there's hardly any wildlife in the Claymore world? Where are the deer? Heck, we haven't even seen cattle or cows have we? The only creatures aside from Dragonkin we've yet seen are horses. It makes you wonder if Awakened Beings would prefer cows over people. I know with the amount of meat involved, it would make sense to eat cows first. Perhaps they eat people because other food sources are unavailable.
This matter was discussed some time ago. I proposed a theory based on efficiency of digestive systems. Wanna hear?
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Old 2010-07-25, 19:13   Link #559
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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
BTW, anyone ever notice there's hardly any wildlife in the Claymore world? Where are the deer? Heck, we haven't even seen cattle or cows have we? The only creatures aside from Dragonkin we've yet seen are horses. It makes you wonder if Awakened Beings would prefer cows over people. I know with the amount of meat involved, it would make sense to eat cows first. Perhaps they eat people because other food sources are unavailable.
-Well there was a horse during Raki's trip back to his hometown (the man driving the carriage who warns him of a yoma in the village) if that amounts to anything. Also way back in Chapter 1, the Zaki yoma did say that humans believe themselves to be "on top of the food chain", so that likely implies that there is wildlife and domesticated animals.
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Old 2010-07-25, 21:21   Link #560
Joe_fh
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Interesting....the Raki like/dislike thing took so long to finish.
Aaand i think I'll skip the whole Prissy issue as well...no point to talk about it at this point. (or maybe there is but hey we talk about that more or less every chapter...it's similar to the Teresa vs Prissy power level discussions back in the day...but it makes a lot more sense ) Despite it being interesting from personal experience so far everyone has their own opinion on this and it only leads to very long "debates" which for some might be fun (if it's fun for both sides there's no reason to hold back you might actually see something you never thought of yourself ) Clearly this wasn't the case here. Again no offence to anyone though I'm not quite sure how one can be offended by this in the first place.

Anyways I perosnally don't see ABs eating people as evil. This again depends on your definition of evil so it probably differs with people. But the example with cows is really good. Everyone eats something and kills it in the process - that's how life works. So actually eating to stay alive is normal. Now killing random people/animals etc for fun is evil. Killing anything aside from the times you need to survive is evil.
And I'm sure most people don't ever think about the cows they eat. I mean it's quite different when you have to kill it yourself. If you can avoid it I'm sure most would.
Oh and I think the reason why elephants don't get killed that much is because they aren't a lot of them. Heck if we killed them for their tusks before we sure would kill them for food if we have to.

Oh and an example of an evil AB would be Agatha. She's the first that comes to mind. Even her nick-name suggested she liked killing and it wasn't only for food.

Also since we've only seen ABs and Yoma kill people that's probably their only food supply. There are a couple of reason for that the most convinient of them all being that the MiBs actually need a way to keep people in check. If ABs were eating cows in the remote regions of the island how would the whole project even work? What would Claymores even do? Kill half humasn half yomas that live in peace and grow plants? After all fear is the easiest way to control people. Also Claymores are implanted with youma flesh just above/around where "the guts" that get eaten are. There probably is a reason for that as well.

So basically if your only food source are people even if you know they are, as revan put it "sentient beings" would you not eat them and die? Would you eat enough only to survive (Prissy and to some extent Riful and Isley) or would you eat until you can eat no more? Sure from a moral point of view you can say eating people s wrong but ehn it comes down to sruvival and you get really hungry it's a whole other story and you can't really be considered evil for surviving.

Oh and before I forget, from the awakenings of Ophelia Prissy and Luciala we can say that after awakening there is intense hunger and they go on a rampage. probably because until that point they never felt hunger and they can't stand it. In other words they didn't destroy whole towns just for fun or because they wanted to.
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