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Old 2010-07-01, 20:01   Link #61
Shiek927
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
The left one is Rafiela; the middle is Luciela; and the right one is Clare. It doesn't make sense for Ophelia to even be in there. Ophelia never merged with that thing.
I don't really see either of them :S

You're not reading our speculations if you don't get why we think and physically see Ophelia in there.
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:04   Link #62
DragoZERO
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Ahhhh!!! This isn't enough! I need more!

I am glad Cynthia is okay though.
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:05   Link #63
Hiking_Bear
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
I don't really see either of them :S

You're not reading our speculations if you don't get why we think and physically see Ophelia in there.
Yeah, I did read them, but I don't see Ophelia from either the pictures or the comments.
I definitely see Clare in there, and if the other two faces represent parts of Clare's mind, then Rafaela/Luciela should be there too. Either it's Clare, Rafaela and Luciela or it's Clare + two random faces.
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Old 2010-07-01, 22:39   Link #64
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Hello all. First time poster long time lurker. =)

Well, it's good to see that the ghosts are safe at the moment, and that they have the chance to at least get on the same page with one another when it comes to what the heck is going on. Things were a little too fragmented for a while there jumping back and forth between each little hot spot. In my opinion of course...
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Old 2010-07-01, 22:42   Link #65
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I'm back guys what did I miss?
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Old 2010-07-01, 23:51   Link #66
germanturkey
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Originally Posted by Freya View Post
Honestly I'm going to laugh if Clare somehow absorbs the destroyer.
you and i both know this will happen. because Raphella and Luciella both had their "talking moment" with Clare a while ago, and now she just needs to tame it. as lame as it is.
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Old 2010-07-01, 23:57   Link #67
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you and i both know this will happen. because Raphella and Luciella both had their "talking moment" with Clare a while ago, and now she just needs to tame it. as lame as it is.
Roflmao, I'm not even know what you two are talking about .

Claire waited her whole life to kill Priscilla and failed miserably just now; she had her face planted on the ground by her foot....for all we know, she could have let Raciella take her simply because she had given up, and just wants to end it all. If she can't kill Priscilla, then what else is she supposed to do with herself?

That would actually be a very surprising twist; before we can begin to debate the sentience of Raciella, possiblities of unions, mergers and what not...we have to remember that it's existence is to destroy life...Claire included.

Quote:
Hello all. First time poster long time lurker. =)

Well, it's good to see that the ghosts are safe at the moment, and that they have the chance to at least get on the same page with one another when it comes to what the heck is going on. Things were a little too fragmented for a while there jumping back and forth between each little hot spot. In my opinion of course...
Welcome aboard Bunk! I think we all have been through that phase before(first time poster, long-time lurker )

Yes, I completely prefer focusing on a single group, not these little jumps between groups that's been going on for awhile now.
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Old 2010-07-02, 00:49   Link #68
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All this is very interesting indeed. But something just doesn't feel right. I mean, it's getting a way bit freaky at the moment, will have to wait and see just how this develops.
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Old 2010-07-02, 00:51   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
The left one is Rafiela; the middle is Luciela; and the right one is Clare. It doesn't make sense for Ophelia to even be in there. Ophelia never merged with that thing.
Spoiler for Image size:


vs IMHO the left face clearly has Ophelia's hair style. It even has that distinctive sharp > just above and below the temple. Clearly there is no hair in front of it's face so clearly it can't be Raphaela due to it being the wrong hair style.

vs vs Now it's harder to tell which of these three (others said Irene, so I'm including her here) it is however lets use some process of elimination. Luciela has really short hair in the front and all the rest of it is pulled to the sides, so even though the center part is right the hair on the sides is too long and not pulled to the sides... so Luciela is out. Now Irene hair is straighter than Teresa's and Irene's hair parts more to the side of her face and actually goes under her side hair, when Teresa's doesn't part as wide and even covers part of the forehead. While this image looks more wavy lets ignore that since wavy is debatable here due to the tentacles (due to lack of a better word). So the part will be our clue, clearly here the hair almost touches both eyes both next to and on the eye on the right the hair wraps around the eye. For Teresa this is common but for Irene her hair never wraps around the eye. Process of elimination leaves only Teresa.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Yeah, I did read them, but I don't see Ophelia from either the pictures or the comments.
I definitely see Clare in there, and if the other two faces represent parts of Clare's mind, then Rafaela/Luciela should be there too. Either it's Clare, Rafaela and Luciela or it's Clare + two random faces.
No, your forgetting that The Destroyer "is no longer either Luciela or Raphaela but a simple destroyer". They are both dead. They only live in Clare's mind, so if these faces are brought forth from Clare's mind the most likely candidates are those with meaning in this fight being Ophelia, Teresa, and Clare.

Clare clearly reversed The Destroyer spreading, so why couldn't she effect what it looked like as well?


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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Roflmao, I'm not even know what you two are talking about .

Claire waited her whole life to kill Priscilla and failed miserably just now; she had her face planted on the ground by her foot....for all we know, she could have let Raciella take her simply because she had given up, and just wants to end it all. If she can't kill Priscilla, then what else is she supposed to do with herself?

That would actually be a very surprising twist; before we can begin to debate the sentience of Raciella, possiblities of unions, mergers and what not...we have to remember that it's existence is to destroy life...Claire included.
Time will tell... though I currently highly suspect Clare will either absorb The Destroyer or escape her though.

Last edited by Ryus; 2010-07-02 at 01:23.
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Old 2010-07-02, 00:56   Link #70
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Originally Posted by bunk0 View Post
Hello all. First time poster long time lurker. =)

Well, it's good to see that the ghosts are safe at the moment, and that they have the chance to at least get on the same page with one another when it comes to what the heck is going on. Things were a little too fragmented for a while there jumping back and forth between each little hot spot. In my opinion of course...
We we're all lurkers once... well most of us (me included)

Welcome!

I was sweating bullets myself for a few pages there, just worrying about Deneve and Helen.

Yeah... things did get chaotic and confusing for a bit. Suppose that's what happens when an author is given about 35 pages a month and a several sided battle starts though. Glad it seems to have worked its way out though, just hoping it won't be clichéd at the end.

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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Ahhhh!!! This isn't enough! I need more!

I am glad Cynthia is okay though.
I know, need more too (right now)... Plus everyone is OK... for now... (there still in range of Priscilla grabbing a hostage or killing some friends before she dies herself, worse yet Clare losing control and the Destroyer spreading out again)
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Old 2010-07-02, 00:59   Link #71
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Roflmao, I guess you're leaving out my Dauf idea huh

Quote:
Time will tell... though I currently highly suspect Clare will either absorb The Destroyer or escape her though.
I still don't understand what that means: how can Claire absorb Raciella instead of the other way around? If their was a union, or Raciella takes over her....but when did Claire suddenly acquire that much power?

I only want people to think outside the box - things rarely go exactly how we predict, and Claire joining with Raciella or some other union sounds a bit too easy to figure out...it also doesn't help that some people are already calling these twists 'lame', as if they already know what is going to happen .

Talk about jumping the gun.

One thing I wish we could have is a darn thought-process - I wish we could hear what Claire was thinking so we could have an idea of what's really going on.
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Old 2010-07-02, 00:59   Link #72
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I don't know, maybe someone like Jean should appear instead of Ophelia (if it is Ophelia for that matter) for sure, since Clare did have a more intense relationship with her.
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Old 2010-07-02, 01:11   Link #73
Ryus
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Roflmao, I guess you're leaving out my Dauf idea huh
I already said he has almost no hair when this face has long hair several posts ago... no need to point it out again.

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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
I still don't understand what that means: how can Claire absorb Raciella instead of the other way around? If their was a union, or Raciella takes over her....but when did Claire suddenly acquire that much power?

I only want people to think outside the box - things rarely go exactly how we predict, and Claire joining with Raciella or some other union sounds a bit too easy to figure out...it also doesn't help that some people are already calling these twists 'lame', as if they already know what is going to happen .

One thing I wish we could have is a darn thought-process - I wish we could hear what Claire was thinking so we could have an idea of what's really going on.
Ok, here is what Clare absorbing The Destroyer means in layman terms. Clare and The Destroyer will have one body and mind. Instead of them merging 50/50 the Clare persona will win out over the blank slate that is The Destroyer, thus causing solely Clare to influence the body shape and mind. In short The Destroyer gets devoured. This would likely happen if either Clare's will and ability to maintain her mind can beat and tame The Destroyers nature or if The Destroyer gets really weakened in this fight but Clare maintains her strength and thus over powers The Destroyer

Your right though that it seems the easy way for an author to take. Though we'll see how fight plays out in the coming months. Now the waiting...
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Old 2010-07-02, 01:25   Link #74
alovelyburn
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Originally Posted by Ryuken View Post
I don't know, maybe someone like Jean should appear instead of Ophelia (if it is Ophelia for that matter) for sure, since Clare did have a more intense relationship with her.
I think, if it is Ophelia and Teresa (which I believe it is), the faces are probably less about how much Clare cares about them, or even who Priscilla injured so much as it seems to be about people she's fighting for/the people in whose name she's seeking her revenge.

And Ophelia did entrust Clare with her revenge against Priscilla, so it makes sense to me that it would be her.

What's interesting to me, though, is that Yagi seems to be continuing to go out of his way to keep Priscilla less monstrous than others, despite her power. For example, she not only doesn't actively want to kill Helen and Deneve, she actually claims to be going to some trouble to avoid doing so... and complains that they're making it hard to go easy on them/avoid killing them. ... and then she apologizes! LOL.

I'm just glad to see that, I think. Because I've always felt that she wasn't really actively malevolent on a general level.
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Old 2010-07-02, 01:31   Link #75
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I already said he has almost no hair when this face has long hair several posts ago... no need to point it out again.
Pff; I see it, and several others still don't see Teresa in the middle...

The tricky part is the 'Why'; before we can guess who these people are, we have to figure out why they would even be there....

........I certainly hope though, after all this speculation, that it's something actually delved into, and not just a visual "oooh" that was made to wow us . We're taking this seriously Yagi

---

........That can't be Ryus. What you are telling me, is simply too convenient for me to accept. If Raciella and Claire truly do join together, for one reason or another, they will join as one whole. Claire winning out in the end just seems too....too...

The thing is, Raciella is not a blank-slate. This is where things may end up getting philosophical, but Raciella must have some level of sentience to explain her behavior as of late. Point being, even if things go as you say, and Claire does win out, it doesn't seem possible that she will win without losing herself; she may become as mindless as her. Renee, if I recall, was shattered almost instantly the first and last time she tried delving into her like this.

You are also wrong in that Luciella lives on in Claire...maybe in Rafaela's memories, but essentially, Rafaela gave everything she had to Claire: psychologically, what was given to Raciella should be an empty slate, and the vast majority should be from Luciella. Who knows: maybe it's this imbalance, is why Raciella is mindless.

If their really is some sort of fusion between the two, Claire will be lucky to get out of it in one-piece, regardless of new power-ups. What people are saying is just too convienent for me, and feels like they are underestimating the danger. Unless Claire has a trick up her sleeve, I don't see what she can do to make this sort of plan work, if she has one. Rafaela helped her, but pushing her out...she wouldn't want her going back in like this, when Raciella tried to kill her before with it's tentacles.

I think, whatever ends up happening to Claire, that doesn't end up with death, will be accidental or unplanned.

---

Alovelyburn, that was one of the theories we came up with today: that those are the people she is fighting for in the name of revenge(Ryus' idea).

While I agree that Priscilla definitely isn't "the final boss" by any means, or any such "ultimate evil"....I think her words were just sarcasm . Her dominant Awakened persona right now is definitely malevolent. It's gonna take a miracle to bring out the girl Raki knew for seven years: It seems like Priscilla is actively attempting to make sure she doesn't "regress" back into her humanity a second time, with the memories and such.
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Old 2010-07-02, 01:47   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Alovelyburn, that was one of the theories we came up with today: that those are the people she is fighting for in the name of revenge(Ryus' idea).
WELL I FIND! I often agree with Ryus, LMAO. Although it may not seem that way because usually I don't say anything if I agree with him. I do think it makes the most sense, though, thematically. Because why would someone who has nothing to do with Priscilla pop up in such a prominent way at that time? ...assuming it's not just a bunch of bodies like last chapter. WHICH WOULD BE HILARIOUS.

Quote:
While I agree that Priscilla definitely isn't "the final boss" by any means, or any such "ultimate evil"....I think her words were just sarcasm . Her dominant Awakened persona right now is definitely malevolent. It's gonna take a miracle to bring out the girl Raki knew for seven years: It seems like Priscilla is actively attempting to make sure she doesn't "regress" back into her humanity a second time, with the memories and such.
ALAS. I read her completely differently. I mean for one thing, I'm still under the impression that her memories have returned and that her complaint was about her mind blanking them, rather than that her memories are gone because she doesn't want to become more human. But mostly because she could have killed them a billion times, but she hasn't. She mostly seems concerned about stopping them from bothering her, but she always goes out of her way to retaliate in a non-lethal manner.

For example! She didn't need more than one of them if she just wanted to keep someone alive to ask about Clare, and yet she mostly just disabled their attacks rather than genuinely attacking back - she didn't even attack Helen's body, just stopped her sword arm.

PERSONALLY... I've never found her especially malevolent or monstrous, even since this storyline started.
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Old 2010-07-02, 01:49   Link #77
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Pff; I see it, and several others still don't see Teresa in the middle...

The tricky part is the 'Why'; before we can guess who these people are, we have to figure out why they would even be there....

........I certainly hope though, after all this speculation, that it's something actually delved into, and not just a visual "oooh" that was made to wow us . We're taking this seriously Yagi

---

........That can't be Ryus. What you are telling me, is simply too convenient for me to accept. If Raciella and Claire truly do join together, for one reason or another, they will join as one whole. Claire winning out in the end just seems too....too...

The thing is, Raciella is not a blank-slate. This is where things may end up getting philosophical, but Raciella must have some level of sentience to explain her behavior as of late. Point being, even if things go as you say, and Claire does win out, it doesn't seem possible that she will win without losing herself; she may become as mindless as her. Renee, if I recall, was shattered almost instantly the first and last time she tried delving into her like this.

You are also wrong in that Luciella lives on in Claire...maybe in Rafaela's memories, but essentially, Rafaela gave everything she had to Claire: psychologically, what was given to Raciella should be an empty slate, and the vast majority should be from Luciella. Who knows: maybe it's this imbalance, is why Raciella is mindless.

If their really is some sort of fusion between the two, Claire will be lucky to get out of it in one-piece, regardless of new power-ups. What people are saying is just too convienent for me, and feels like they are underestimating the danger. Unless Claire has a trick up her sleeve, I don't see what she can do to make this sort of plan work, if she has one. Rafaela helped her, but pushing her out...she wouldn't want her going back in like this, when Raciella tried to kill her before with it's tentacles.

I think, whatever ends up happening to Claire, that doesn't end up with death, will be accidental or unplanned.

---

Alovelyburn, that was one of the theories we came up with today: that those are the people she is fighting for in the name of revenge(Ryus' idea).

While I agree that Priscilla definitely isn't "the final boss" by any means, or any such "ultimate evil"....I think her words were just sarcasm . Her dominant Awakened persona right now is definitely malevolent. It's gonna take a miracle to bring out the girl Raki knew for seven years: It seems like Priscilla is actively attempting to make sure she doesn't "regress" back into her humanity a second time, with the memories and such.
Luciela is as dead as Teresa. Sure they both live on in Clare's mind (and a few org members) but that's it. There both gone... sure it seems either could come back right now if The Destroyer starts depositing the "souls" Clare collected over the years but that just sounds wrong on so many levels.

I agree Clare winning out is the easy way out but it is an acceptable speculation. Debatable of course though...

So far Yagi hasn't explored what caused The Destroyer to behave this way... heard several good speculations: like it the core yoma not influenced by the human bod/mind, it is a result of Raphaela's pain, and it the result of a lack of a human mind now merged with a dead body. Sorry for just paraphrasing them...

I agree it sounds easy and ignores dangers though I just don't see Clare being a monster for the rest of the series, though I am prepared for it oddly enough.

BTW sure I was the first to post the idea (I think... ... actually I forget if I was the first... ) but I clearly can't take credit for it. Feels too egotistical to me...

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PERSONALLY... I've never found her especially malevolent or monstrous, even since this storyline started.
Agreed... Which makes this your idea! Right?
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Old 2010-07-02, 02:09   Link #78
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WELL I FIND! I often agree with Ryus, LMAO. Although it may not seem that way because usually I don't say anything if I agree with him. I do think it makes the most sense, though, thematically. Because why would someone who has nothing to do with Priscilla pop up in such a prominent way at that time? ...assuming it's not just a bunch of bodies like last chapter. WHICH WOULD BE HILARIOUS.
I've said it before, but it seems the three people we see this chapter specifically, are there to try and scare Priscilla. Sort of like an eerie foreshadowing.

Who said their were a bunch of bodies though last chapter? I see an AF and I see Isley....and Rafaela and Luciella most likely, to definitely knew both of them.

I think those nameless faces need a re-visit this month

Quote:
ALAS. I read her completely differently. I mean for one thing, I'm still under the impression that her memories have returned and that her complaint was about her mind blanking them, rather than that her memories are gone because she doesn't want to become more human. But mostly because she could have killed them a billion times, but she hasn't. She mostly seems concerned about stopping them from bothering her, but she always goes out of her way to retaliate in a non-lethal manner.

For example! She didn't need more than one of them if she just wanted to keep someone alive to ask about Clare, and yet she mostly just disabled their attacks rather than genuinely attacking back - she didn't even attack Helen's body, just stopped her sword arm.

PERSONALLY... I've never found her especially malevolent or monstrous, even since this storyline started.
You're saying that Priscilla's Awakened persona isn't malevolent?

Hard to swallow alovelyburn, and I'm usually on her side: remember, it's this persona that took Ophelia's brother, Irene's arm, and destroyed untold villages.

Priscilla may not be truly or entirely evil...but their is a part of her that is: she's been suppressing it for seven years by not eating or alledgely tapping into her power, but now it's back, and it seems like she's making up for lost time.

....and you don't have to say "personally" for every single little thing: Hedge isn't here no more .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus
Luciela is as dead as Teresa. Sure they both live on in Clare's mind (and a few org members) but that's it. There both gone... sure it seems either could come back right now if The Destroyer starts depositing the "souls" Clare collected over the years but that just sounds wrong on so many levels.
......You lost me entirely.

Raciella IS Luciella....Raciella IS Rafaela.....Rafaela, in her last moments though, gave her everything she had while she there was still time so, in her own words I think, would continue to exist a reminder that the indepedent warrior and sibling named Rafaela did exist at one point.

So yes...Luciella, the older sister, the Abyssal One of the South etc etc...yes, she is dead, and so is her sister, technically-speaking. Raciella, is a combination of what was left behind basically.

One theory I came up with to explain Raciella, is that she is an animal in the broadest sense - she doesn't have thoughts, she has instincts and reactions. It could theoritically explain her "tactical" thinking which she seems to have shown, while still being consistant with what we know.
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Old 2010-07-02, 02:13   Link #79
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Originally Posted by evil_kenshin View Post
Weirdly unless I misunderstood the scene despite Deneve ripping the rods out earlier she later succumbed to them in this chapter (saved by yuma though )

or was it just due to her using her regenerative abilities a bit to much who knows but deneve nearly awakened this chapter.
I think Deneven just used her regenerative abilities to much.




I think Clare and the Destroyer are two separate entities.
This is not the first time Clare merged with the Destroyer. We still don't have an explanation of what the merger entailed, but Clare did not exhibit any side effect from it. The only reasonable conclusion I can come up with to explain what happen is, Clare was swimming inside of the Destroyer. This is way different than a merger. If you don't agree with this assessment, then how do you explain Clare retaining Irean's arm?
The biggest evidence that I have for this theory is the female AB in Ramona. She was able to move her body withing the huge mass wile controlling her outer shell.
We also have Cynthia saying that she can sense Clare faint yoki. This could mean two things, Clare is withing the Destroyer or Clare yoki and the Destroyer's yoki are mixed. I prefer to believe that Clare is withing the Destroyer.

Clare might have trouble coming out of the Destroyer, but I don't think she will be one with it. She would be overpowered.
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Old 2010-07-02, 02:27   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Who said their were a bunch of bodies though last chapter? I see an AF and I see Isley....and Rafaela and Luciella most likely, to definitely knew both of them.

I think those nameless faces need a re-visit this month
I'm afraid you've lost me now, haha. I'm not sure what you mean.

Quote:
You're saying that Priscilla's Awakened persona isn't malevolent?

Hard to swallow alovelyburn, and I'm usually on her side: remember, it's this persona that took Ophelia's brother, Irene's arm, and destroyed untold villages.
I'm actually not on her side, exactly. But that said, do I think she's malevolent? Well she's scary due to her alien nature and her ridiculous power, but I see the village destruction as part of her nature - she did it for food. Even in Extra Scene 3 you can tell she's not doing it to be cruel or anything; she barely even understands what she's doing, and doesn't understand why people are afraid of her even as she's killing them. Ophelia's brother would have been caught in that situation, but it's not like she tracked him down to sadistically murder him. From her perspective she was feeding herself - it's from the other side that it becomes problematic. But then again, as Riful would be happy to point out I'm sure, cows would think people were evil for slaughtering them, too. If cows had... moral sense.

And Irene was trying to kill her! In fact, she's constantly giving people chances to get out of her way and normally only kills them when they choose not to do so: she offered Alicia and Beth the chance to move and they attacked her instead. She killed Dauf in self defense. Against Helen and Deneve she's consistently not even trying to kill them - this is why I think she's quite serious when she's complaining that they aren't making it easy to avoid killing them. Because if she wanted to kill them, they'd be dead.

Basically my perception of Priscilla to date is that she kills for food or because she's being attacked. And that's about it, aside from her Teresa hangup which seems to be a remainder from her warrior times. It's not that I think she's good - she clearly has no qualms about the killing once she determines that's what's called for. But I do find her to be amoral rather than evil.

Quote:
....and you don't have to say "personally" for every single little thing: Hedge isn't here no more .
It's not paranoia or deckstacking or whatever, it's just the way I write/talk. The result of many years of Internet debating. Sadly I do it in real life and one-on-one conversations, too.
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