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Old 2009-08-02, 04:25   Link #761
Sannom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlson
Possibly but I think there's a greater chance Pride would betray Father for that exact same reason since we know he cares alot about her as a mother figure despite his stance towards humans
I don't think so... I think Pride cares for her, but the way he describes it, he seems to like her as someone would like a pet (a lot like the first Greed in fact). I think he won't hesitate to discard her.

The one that is most likely to betray Father is Wrath. I have always wondered if his number as an experiment was completely innocent : the 12th about people serving a man who looks a lot like the common depiction of Jesus? Judas is in people!
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Old 2009-08-02, 08:53   Link #762
Vicious108
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"Though we were only pretending to be a family, I am fond of that creature. That is the truth."

Pride says that himself in chapter 88, so I'll take his word for it. IMO it makes it obvious that he does care for her, though yes, probably not enough for her to become a weakness against him.
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Old 2009-08-02, 09:07   Link #763
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I don't think Pride will let anything stand in his way. Of course then the question is what is "his way" in the first place. The running theme throughout the series has been that the Homunculi begin to discover that human emotions are not bad things to have, and in humanity itself there is a rare and unique strength that no other race can match. It's all about how they deal with this revelation that changes who they are individually.

For Lust, she was happy to die, knowing that she lost to someone so much stronger and capable than she expected.

For Envy, he killed himself because he could not accept the fact that humanity has a bond stronger than anything he could pretend to have.

For Sloth, he was just a lazy bastard so I guess it doesn't matter.

For Greed he was/is proud of humanity's willpower and he certainly saw great use in human qualities like true leadership and loyalty.

For Wrath, it's obvious he is not completely content that his life was planned out for him, and that he himself is merely a pawn in the entire equation.

For Pride it's a HUGE question mark. Since Lust, Envy, Sloth and Gluttony are all out of the picture, and Greedling and Wrath are both the most likely to defect (even though they're fighting each other), Pride could well be the deciding factor in the entire climax.
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Old 2009-08-02, 11:07   Link #764
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Well if he lives up to his namesake, then he shouldn't let human virtue affect him in the slightest, for he would be way too proud of his own homunculus race.
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Old 2009-08-02, 16:14   Link #765
Karlson
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Originally Posted by GaimeGuy View Post
He doesn't care about her... he sees her as a tool for himself and, like all other humans, inferior and pawns to the homunculi.

The whole sympathy thing was to get Al to lower his guard while pride sent a morse code signal to Father, a trick. He admitted it himself.
True he used morse code but he never personally said himself that he tricked Al through that method of sympathy, that what he said about his "mother" was a lie. We can take it that way sure but I think his child-like behaviour if anything was what tricked Al.

And for the record, I really don't think it'll become a weakness anyway. He takes after the sin of pride, it wouldn't exactly fit his name to have that as a major weakness. I just don't see how Wrath has that kind of weakness either, but maybe the human traits that he retained after become a homonculus might just include said feelings towards his wife. To the point of betraying his kinsmen tho? I'm not entirely confident on that claim
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Old 2009-08-02, 17:12   Link #766
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Although Pride was tricking Al I agree with Karlson that what he was saying about Mrs. Bradley was sincere. Even if Pride doesn't fully realize this himself.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:54   Link #767
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And for the record, I really don't think it'll become a weakness anyway. He takes after the sin of pride, it wouldn't exactly fit his name to have that as a major weakness. I just don't see how Wrath has that kind of weakness either, but maybe the human traits that he retained after become a homonculus might just include said feelings towards his wife. To the point of betraying his kinsmen tho? I'm not entirely confident on that claim
I don't think there is any "weakness" in Wrath so to speak, nor will there be anything which would make him "switch sides" for what it's worth. Instead, what makes him a compelling character is that he has a genuine curiosity towards humanity as a species. He wants to know what makes them tick, he wants to try to understand how to influence them and make them do what he wants without it being preplanned. He has repeatedly shown disdain that everything was planned for him from the start, and that he has not really earned his position or status for himself. He finds Mustang an interesting adversary because for once there is someone challenging him and outsmarting both him and his allies. It is this curiosity within him which will eventually drive him into making decisions which might not favor Father and his allies. Although, as it is now, it's not like he has any allies left aside from Pride. If everything goes bad, he might well decide to fight to keep his authority over the country, instead of fighting for some vague higher goal that Father has.
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:05   Link #768
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I just don't see how Wrath has that kind of weakness either, but maybe the human traits that he retained after become a homonculus might just include said feelings towards his wife. To the point of betraying his kinsmen tho? I'm not entirely confident on that claim
come on, if you look through the whole series, he's glad that Father's plans are being ruined because for once his life isn't being controlled by him. He was angry about hughes' death, and he's also shown a difference of opinion several times from Father and the rest of the homunculi at several points in the series. He's also mentioned how he thinks it might be time for the younger generation to take over.

I think Wrath ultimately wants father's plans to fail, and he wants mustang, armstrong, the elric brothers, etc, the youth of armetris to succeed in putting a stop to those plans and taking over... however, he feels as though it would be best for them to earn it, rather than handing it over, but he also wants them to succeed, and so he makes it look like he's still on father's side by half-heartedly trying to prevent them from doing so..

IE: Visiting Ed in the hospital and telling hughes, ed, al, and armstrong to not look further into the philosopher's stone or the military's involvement.... but then telling them to regard everyone in the military as though they were there enemy, and to proceed with caution, as they do not know who might be listening in on them.

Another example: Separating Mustang from his crew by stationing them at different areas, but keeping Riza in central as his secretary and allowing her to talk with Mustang at her lunch breaks.

He seems to be acting as a proxy for father while also subtly giving mustang + the elrics just enough advice or leeway to continue their investigations.... at least that's what it looks like to me. He has no problems with Mustang taking over, but he wants it to be done by mustang proving to be superior to him, rather than him giving up the throne to Mustang.
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Old 2009-08-03, 00:04   Link #769
Karlson
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come on, if you look through the whole series, he's glad that Father's plans are being ruined because for once his life isn't being controlled by him. He was angry about hughes' death, and he's also shown a difference of opinion several times from Father and the rest of the homunculi at several points in the series. He's also mentioned how he thinks it might be time for the younger generation to take over.
Sometimes it's good for me to just re-read the source material instead of arguing. I get your point now. Probably would've been easier to just refer me to Chapter 49 with that conversation between him and Pride as alot of what you just stated there was found in that said conversation alone.

And was he angered by Hughes' death? I thought that anger came from how infuriated he got listening to Elicia's crying
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Old 2009-08-04, 21:41   Link #770
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Also, it's not so much that he's glad that Father's plans are ruined that it is that it's something unexpected and thus interesting, as contrasted with the continuing boredom of having everything go according to plan. I always thought that him making Riza his personal secretary was an obvious threat to Mustang, something like "if you step out of line, I'll kill Riza first" sort of way. Remember, he broke up Mustang's crew so that they could be used as hostages, and he kept the most valuable hostage in the easiest place for him to keep an eye on her. Wrath is also quite proud of being a homunculus, as he stated that Lust died with the same kind of pride in being homunculus that he and all others share. And also he laughed at what he considers the foolishness of humans several times, such as his first talk with the new greed and the the human persistence in the face of defeat thing. And the reason he was so pissed of at Hughes funeral was pretty much because he had to listen to Elicia crying.
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Old 2009-08-05, 00:26   Link #771
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Wrath's reason for taking Riza as his secretary is fairly obvious when taken in context with with a very important line from chapter 40 that Wrath should be delivering to Father in the next couple episodes.

"I will have him [Mustang] open the Gate."

Not only does Wrath move Riza within his reach to imply to Mustang that he will kill her if Mustang "steps out of line", he fully expects Mustang to "step out of line" so he can kill Riza and turn Mustang into a confirmed special sacrifice as opposed to just a candidate. We know from flashbacks with Riza's father that Mustang has the ability, if not the outright knowledge, to get to the Gate, and he more than has the will required to open it.
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Old 2009-08-05, 10:41   Link #772
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I doubt Riza will die though. Mustang just went through the whole getting over revenge for Hughes thing, if he lost Riza now on top of it, things would get pretty messy and Roy's character would never be able to have a happy ending. Well he himself doesn't believe he deserves one, but yeah.
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Old 2009-08-05, 12:51   Link #773
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I think Mustang may not necessarily be the one to open the gate. There's Marcoh too and so far he hasn't done anything important enough. (or has he? I don't really remember) There must be some role for him to play at this time of the story. At least the story will have a better ending if the one to open the gate is Marcoh instead of Mustang, and that's what I wish for.
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Old 2009-08-05, 13:25   Link #774
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Marcoh had his crowning moment of awesome when he OHKO'd Monster Envy. That's good enough for him, IMO, no need to give him the big role of being the 5th sacrifice. Mustang makes much more sense, though I can't really see him even trying to open the gates after seeing first hand in Ed and Al what the result of trying to bring somebody back to life is.
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Old 2009-08-05, 18:22   Link #775
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I hope it's Kimbley/Pride since I assume Pride ate (?) Kimbley to get his body/power... and since he is the pride of his father he might be willing to do it

regarding Wrath's final battle I say he might be "discovered" that he is a homunculus, everybody who thought he was a human will think he is not the "real" one and the whole army will turn against him, he will (hopefully) die by Greeling's hands and that way everybody will still have the thought he was a good fuhrer that simply died in a coup and got his identity usurped by an evil being
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Old 2009-08-05, 18:43   Link #776
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I don't think Kimbley has the skills to open the gate.... he's really not that talented. Ed and Scar could take him even though he had a philosopher's stone.
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Old 2009-08-05, 22:22   Link #777
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Remember, Kimbley was talented enough to become a state alchemist. He's probably talented, but not a genius alchemist, which is what Ed is. And Scar isn't even really an alchemist, he's just a really good close combat fighter who has a right arm that is capable of alchemical destruction. At this point, I'm not really sure any of those will be the fifth sacrifice. I think Father might be stopped before then, or else he'll use himself as the fifth sacrifice and they might battle it out inside the gates. Which would be awesome.
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Old 2009-08-06, 01:30   Link #778
quigonkenny
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I think Mustang may not necessarily be the one to open the gate. There's Marcoh too and so far he hasn't done anything important enough. (or has he? I don't really remember) There must be some role for him to play at this time of the story. At least the story will have a better ending if the one to open the gate is Marcoh instead of Mustang, and that's what I wish for.
Arguably Marcoh has already opened the Gate ("off screen", before the beginning of the series), and the only reason he's not on Father's radar is because Scar "killed" him. Don't you need to perform human transmutation to create a Philosopher's Stone, since it consists of human souls? Wasn't Marcoh one of the ones churning Stones out for use in the war in Ishbal? Wasn't that the whole reason why, before Scar got to him, the homunculi were keeping him around instead of killing him?
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Old 2009-08-06, 05:54   Link #779
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Arguably Marcoh has already opened the Gate ("off screen", before the beginning of the series), and the only reason he's not on Father's radar is because Scar "killed" him. Don't you need to perform human transmutation to create a Philosopher's Stone, since it consists of human souls? Wasn't Marcoh one of the ones churning Stones out for use in the war in Ishbal? Wasn't that the whole reason why, before Scar got to him, the homunculi were keeping him around instead of killing him?

There has been nothing in the series to indicate that Marcoh has opened the doors of truth. For one thing if he did he would of had to pay a cost and there has been nothing in the series to show this. Marcoh could have gotten through the doors of truth with a philosopher stone but he never actually made one. He only made the imperfect ones. The real philsopher stone needs countless lives (like an entire city). Marcoh's stones used too few lives.

Not to mention it has been stated that Marcoh is only a potential sacrifice (which is why they were not killing him they did the same with Mustang.) Marcoh is not confirmed because he has not opened the doors of truth yet. If he did I am pretty sure the homunculus would have known about this.
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Old 2009-08-06, 06:25   Link #780
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Those discussions still remind me that there is still an extremely gifted alchemist out there who opened the door and performed the most "complete" human transmutation we've ever seen... but that the Homonculus never heard of him That is one poor information network if you ask me!
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