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Old 2010-05-14, 14:36   Link #1781
Arabesque
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Dunno about that... I though the symbolism about the lion eating the sun was pretty obviously a reference to the eclipse. Besides, Ed would have to be able to create fusion in order to use it as a trade, and the only person who has been able to do that is Father .
Not necessarily. Ed didn't need to know about how to create a Philosopher's Stone to use Envy's or be in position of it. All what he knew about it was that it was made from human soul's, and he simply used it as a toll to go through the gate (remember, he only needs to transmute himself to open the Gate, the Sun can be used as compensation instead of himself)
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
And even with his half-million souls he had left after Hohenheim's counter, he had to dispel it or else he'd lose control over his "god", which he didn't lose control of until he'd dropped well below that level... Ed, or more likely Hohenheim, might be able to summon it up, but only with the use of a massive Stone. Probably more than even Greed currently has.
I didn't get the impression that he dispelled it because he needed to focus to contain his ''god'' but that he was being more cautious now that his HP dropped down dramatically and that he might not survive the damage from his attack. As for summoning it, I suppose it could be Father's last gamble now that Ed is more or less is pushing him into a corner.

Now I know that my theory is not based on any factual evidence, but on the pictorial ones and symbolism of paying the Sun to the Truth, but I find it more likely than Ed allowing either his father or Greed sacrificing themselves for Al's sake.
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or Hohenheim morphing water into stone.
As for Hohenheim, I don't remember him ever using water to create stone (ice, maybe), but even if he did, hello, half a million souls...
I think The Small One is referring to the scene in chapter 78 where Hohenheim was with Rose and that other guy, on his way to give his declaration of war to Father. I always thought that he just extended the pavement rather than change the poisonous water into stone to walk on.
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Old 2010-05-14, 15:25   Link #1782
Poetic Justice
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Spectacular chapter, Absolutely epic. Can't wait for the finale next month.
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Old 2010-05-14, 23:18   Link #1783
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
I think The Small One is referring to the scene in chapter 78 where Hohenheim was with Rose and that other guy, on his way to give his declaration of war to Father. I always thought that he just extended the pavement rather than change the poisonous water into stone to walk on.
If that's what he's referring to, then the anime does make it more clear than the manga that the stepping stones are coming up from under the water (presumably from the bed/sides of the pool), although he could arguably be pulling some of the components from whatever is polluting the water.
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Old 2010-05-15, 09:52   Link #1784
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Reading the discussion, I am left asking myself if one of my premises about the FMA universe is wrong, so I if I am incorrect, someone please correct me:
I have always thought that the Philosophers' Stone was a "cheat" with which you can create matter out of nothing, and it would make sense that one who has it would also be able to manipulate the protons, neutrons and electrons rather that only the atoms and molecules as is with alchemists without it. Did the manga say otherwise? I only started reading it from about 80 and forward.
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Old 2010-05-15, 10:24   Link #1785
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Yes technically using the Philosopher Stone you can bypass the rule of Equivalent Exchange (although considering the stone is made of human lives you can say this is not really true).
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Old 2010-05-15, 10:26   Link #1786
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Originally Posted by Slave0fLife View Post
Reading the discussion, I am left asking myself if one of my premises about the FMA universe is wrong, so I if I am incorrect, someone please correct me:
I have always thought that the Philosophers' Stone was a "cheat" with which you can create matter out of nothing, and it would make sense that one who has it would also be able to manipulate the protons, neutrons and electrons rather that only the atoms and molecules as is with alchemists without it. Did the manga say otherwise? I only started reading it from about 80 and forward.
The Philosopher's Stone is more like a "power source" than a "cheat". It stores human souls in a stone, and then uses those souls to fuel alchemy. So instead of "matter out of nothing" it's more like "matter out of [weird soul energy]".

The manga doesn't really say whether alchemists can manipulate only atoms and molecules, or whether they can affect protons and such. I mean, they can manipulate souls and use them as power sources so.... I think, as long as the alchemists have the knowledge and skill then they can manipulate protons and such too.
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Old 2010-05-16, 01:27   Link #1787
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Okay, and what about creating metal out of thin air?

Father did it, when he repaired Al's armor, the first time they met him. And Al himself did it, when he was fighting Pride and Kimblee using the Philosopher's stone. If it's not fusion, then what was this?
With the Philosopher Stone (human souls), you can break the rules. Since Father and Hoho are walking Philosopher Stones, so can they. Every time we see alchemy by someone who isn't using a Stone or souls (blue sparks in the anime) it's always chemical and molecular manipulation. No changing elements, no creation from nothing, no fusion/fission/nuclear anything. The only time we see those effects (like in your two examples) is with soul (Stone) alchemy (red sparks in the anime). If you want to suggest that soul alchemy allows for manipulation of protons/neutrons/electrons/etc. (changing air to metal rather than creating it out of nothing, for example), that would also explain all the soul alchemy (outside of Gate travel) that we've seen.

It's really fairly simple...
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Old 2010-05-18, 03:20   Link #1788
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Greed and Lin might separate, I can see Greed going down Terminator 2 Judgement Day. Greed dying for Lin and the rest. For the Ironic twist, the villain undone by his own greed!!! Bwahahaha!

Truth may hint something Al. Al has been staring at the truth the whole time. I'm sure there is something to him staring at that carving.


By the way, fusion was the whole point to Alchemy, in a historical sense. The Holy Grail of alchemy was transmuting lead into gold.

In FMA they toned it down, Alchemy in the FMA universe is limited to just magical chemistry with magical nuclear psychics requiring souls and killing millions of people.

Last edited by mechalord; 2010-05-18 at 03:33.
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Old 2010-05-19, 12:54   Link #1789
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Hi everyone, i'd like to discuss something which happened in chapter 104.

There are some things which bother me a little:

- first of all, what was the purpose of the human sacrifices exactly? Father says "c'mon gates, fight each other" but never before in the manga there was foreshadowing of this. Also, the fact that opposing gates can be used to harness energy is a bit "out there", i mean Arakawa is a good storyteller who always abided to her own set of rules, but here is a bit of deus ex machina since nothing of the sort has never been mentioned.
also, we see the "gate tentacles" coming out of the sacrifices.... to grab father? Amestris'people? the other gates?

- what about the earth/heaven gate? homunculus opened the gate of the earth but i suppose he wasn't in "this" dimension anymore? 'cause he would have stomped Central and so on but why did HE come out of the gate? shouldn't there be Earth's Truth instead? (this brings me to an hypotesis: Homunculus looking "out" from earth's gate looked much like a "truth".... i mean, he even stretches his arm to reach the sun, much like the "gate's tentacles". Like he had to create AND become a big/powerful Truth to bring down an even bigger truth. Anyway....its just my guess.)
or maybe, he got so big because he's sized with the dimension of the earth's gate, and having absorbed all of its contents, he can now appear as the truth of Earth itself. Ow my brain hurts.

- again: sun and earth's gate collide and the result is "paralyzing" the black tentacles of the sun by forcing them against the ones of the earth gate, so that the homunculus is "free" to bring down god. Am i reading this right? is there any clarification of the matter in guidebooks?


fact is, everything seems so vague..... i loved 107's twist 'cause it was all so fitting in the grand scheme of things..... while 104's "OMG WTF moments" are, like..... more WTF then OMG

can anyone elaborate on my doubts? tnx
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Old 2010-05-21, 13:12   Link #1790
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Could someone tell me what chapter is the end of Episode 57 ?I'm hooked once again ;o
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Old 2010-05-21, 13:41   Link #1791
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Could someone tell me what chapter is the end of Episode 57 ?I'm hooked once again ;o
Chapter 99.
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Old 2010-05-21, 16:09   Link #1792
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Thanks,I finally caught up to the latest chapter.

And 1 thing i didn't understand did Al get his body back when he sacrificed his metal body to get Ed's arm back ?
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Old 2010-05-21, 16:58   Link #1793
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More or less. He exchanged his soul for Ed's arm. So his soul went back to his body, but he is still stuck there.
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Old 2010-05-21, 17:04   Link #1794
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Originally Posted by noktown View Post
Thanks,I finally caught up to the latest chapter.

And 1 thing i didn't understand did Al get his body back when he sacrificed his metal body to get Ed's arm back ?
Al did get his body back, or to be more correct, his soul went back to his body, which is inside the door. Because Ed used his arm as payment to rescue Al's soul from the door when the transmutation of their mother went wrong, Al just reversed that reaction, which made his soul go back into the door and reunite with his body while Ed received his arm back. The question is whether or not he'll get his leg back as he used his leg as payment for summoning their mother(well not really their mother, but you get what I mean). If he does, it'll have to be through another method.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:31   Link #1795
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Al did get his body back, or to be more correct, his soul went back to his body, which is inside the door.
Arguably, considering what went where, you could say Al's body got its soul back. ^_^
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Old 2010-05-21, 19:20   Link #1796
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I sure hope Arakawa wraps this all up. I mean, she not only has to end the fight, but also provide the final theological revelation, as well as "hopefully" provide an epilogue. That's quite a lot to do, even with 150 pages. There are many Winry fans crossing their fingers I'm sure. lol
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Old 2010-05-22, 00:48   Link #1797
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I still roll my eyes every time somebody mentions that "150 pages" that someone pulled out of their nethers earlier this month. No way we're getting 150 pages in the last chapter, if (as suggested by the director's blog) we're getting that last chapter in the last episode, when the current pace is around 1.5 40-page chapters (~60 pages) per episode. We might get something a little bigger than what we've seen lately (maybe that 80 pages we were "promised" but did not get last chapter), but as well as Arakawa has been able to tell the story so far, I have no problem expecting that she'll be able to finish it off fairly easily with the ~60 pages we've gotten with the last few, or even less.

For another thing, I think a lot of people are expecting to see things and hear answers that Arakawa's just not going to give us, and really shouldn't be expected to. The specifics to that "theological question" are one (How does it actually affect/explain the outcome beyond "This is the McGuffin Father wanted"?), but there are a fair number of other things. The author doesn't have to tell us everything, and there are probably a few things she assumes were fairly obviously explained, that some of us do not.
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Old 2010-05-22, 03:00   Link #1798
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The question is whether or not he'll get his leg back as he used his leg as payment for summoning their mother(well not really their mother, but you get what I mean). If he does, it'll have to be through another method.
Which is why at this point it looks like they can't recover their bodies completely(at least Ed can't),because every time they want something back,they need to offer something in return,unless they sacrifice another person ;o

But i truly hope that Mustang gets his eyesight back,at first i thought that he's pretending to be blind to fool the enemy.(since we haven't seen what happened when he entered the door),but nah the truth had to take his eyesight

Last edited by noktown; 2010-05-22 at 03:21.
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Old 2010-05-22, 07:07   Link #1799
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Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
The question is whether or not he'll get his leg back as he used his leg as payment for summoning their mother(well not really their mother, but you get what I mean). If he does, it'll have to be through another method.
I don't think Ed will get back his leg because when Hohenheim "healed" Izume he said she cant get back her organs because it is a punishmet for her sin. I think it is the same thing for Ed, he can not get back his leg because it is a punishment for trying to perform human transmutation.

Now I personally think Mustang should get back his eyes, he did not want to see the "Truth" and was forced too. That's simply not fair.
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Old 2010-05-23, 02:15   Link #1800
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For another thing, I think a lot of people are expecting to see things and hear answers that Arakawa's just not going to give us, and really shouldn't be expected to. The specifics to that "theological question" are one (How does it actually affect/explain the outcome beyond "This is the McGuffin Father wanted"?), but there are a fair number of other things. The author doesn't have to tell us everything, and there are probably a few things she assumes were fairly obviously explained, that some of us do not.
I didn't say she needed to reveal everything. lol

But we still don't have a solid idea of who "Truth" actually is.

And since we will probably see it once more, I am wondering if she will reveal something more regarding it.

Also, I think there's a high probability that Greed will save the day. In the Manga, Greed was first killed on a cross (later edited by Viz and subsequently altered in Brotherhood). But why a cross? I believe Arakawa (who says she knew the ending ever since she began) was giving a hint that Greed would be "redeemed". Afterall, in Christianity, the cross is a sign of redemption. And we all know how Arakawa has used many Christian/Jewish symbols throughout the story. It's a possibility that I think will come to pass in some way or another.
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