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Old 2010-08-04, 00:59   Link #241
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
Miria's cutting down of Tabitha is right up there with Gin all of a sudden turning on Aizen (as if Bleach didn't have enough plot twists). Sure Yagi explains it more than that betrayal in Bleach is explained, but it's so startling and bizarre you find your eyes doubting what they're seeing.
My first thought upon seeing it was "NO! Miria's been infected with a rod from a hellcat"

Then it was... um... is she working for someone or was Tabitha a spy or something. I then jumped on that idea thinking "I knew it! The bitch was just worming her way closer to Miria for secrets... XD"... This was followed by utter confusion and me scratching my head and thinking that sounded very weird and not logical.

Then I realized i was dumbfounded and hoped maybe Weils has summarized the chapter... then scampered off to check for it.

I was happy to learn he had. After reading it I then had to then ponder why she'd do this and not just take her with her, even though the idea made sense the shock of it really confused me. Until I recalled Miria seemed to want the ghosts to stay up north and was planning to take on the org by herself. She didn't even tell them about the truth of the org and the mainland until Galatea questioned her about it. I think Yagi's been planning this for a while and giving us subtle clues we all missed.

One thing is for certain I'm going to have to adapt to this character change like I did with Clare after ch 100 when she stated she planned all along to awaken against Priscilla. I think all the ghosts have really lost it after Pieta and no one noticed... especially since all of them seemed to have held in there pain and never opened up about it. I mean look at Cynthia who would have guessed she was suicidal too
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Old 2010-08-04, 01:46   Link #242
Aimless
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Until I recalled Miria seemed to want the ghosts to stay up north and was planning to take on the org by herself. She didn't even tell them about the truth of the org and the mainland until Galatea questioned her about it. I think Yagi's been planning this for a while and giving us subtle clues we all missed.
Exactly.

I don't see what all the controversy is about here. Miria's actions in this chapter fit in perfectly with what we've seen of her character in the past. She's always been torn between two competing goals - destroying the Org. and protecting her comrades.

Knowing the fight against the Org. to likely be a suicide mission, she didn't particularly want the ghosts to accompany her in the first place (save perhaps Clare, but more likely she simply knew there was no stopping Clare). Likewise, I'm all but certain that she intended to attack on her own the entire time; the way she encouraged the group to disperse once they got to Rabona certainly supports this view.

Attacking Tabatha the way she did may be a little harsh, but this is Tabatha after all. It was the only way to stop Tabatha (one of the weakest members of the group in terms of combat capability) from following.

Assaulting the Org. head on is also in character. When have we ever known Miria to not attack directly? Miria's smart, but she's not particularly cunning. Stealth and misdirection are not her thing.
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Old 2010-08-04, 02:21   Link #243
revan5
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Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
Exactly.

I don't see what all the controversy is about here. Miria's actions in this chapter fit in perfectly with what we've seen of her character in the past. She's always been torn between two competing goals - destroying the Org. and protecting her comrades.

Knowing the fight against the Org. to likely be a suicide mission, she didn't particularly want the ghosts to accompany her in the first place (save perhaps Clare, but more likely she simply knew there was no stopping Clare). Likewise, I'm all but certain that she intended to attack on her own the entire time; the way she encouraged the group to disperse once they got to Rabona certainly supports this view.

Attacking Tabatha the way she did may be a little harsh, but this is Tabatha after all. It was the only way to stop Tabatha (one of the weakest members of the group in terms of combat capability) from following.

Assaulting the Org. head on is also in character. When have we ever known Miria to not attack directly? Miria's smart, but she's not particularly cunning. Stealth and misdirection are not her thing.
Stealth isn't in her nature huh? How was it then that Miria sneaked into the Organization's archives and confirmed Rubel's findings? She also comes off more cunning pre-Pieta than now, as she didn't fall for Rubel's lure then. My main objection to what happened is that while some of it fits Miria's character, some came off awfully harsh.

Sure Miria is out for revenge upon the Organization above all else, but she's also been seen as a social, caring claymore. Cutting down Tabitha without even a word of regret to immobilize her and making a lethal threat to Galatea to not interfere seems out of character to the kinder, gentler Miria we've seen before. This is after all the same girl that cried for her comrades' passing and felt guilty she couldn't save more in a suicide mission.

Contrast that with the girl that just chopped down Tabitha and told Galatea not to stop her "or else" and you can understand why I'm annoyed at Yagi's writing here. At worst Miria should've chopped down Tabitha, then said "Sorry, but this is for your own good". The threat against Galatea could've been tamped down, and nobody would've seen anything quite as unrealistic. I know Yagi's aiming for shock, but why doesn't that shock quite conform to his own character development?

My only hope is that Miria lives somehow and, if captured, the Ghosts mount a heroic rescue effort to save her from the Organization's experimentation.
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Old 2010-08-04, 02:42   Link #244
Aimless
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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
Stealth isn't in her nature huh? How was it then that Miria sneaked into the Organization's archives and confirmed Rubel's findings?
Context is important. There is a difference between slipping into a room unnoticed as part of an investigation and sneaking up behind someone in order to ambush them. I never said that she wasn't capable of stealth. I said that sneak attacks were not in her character.

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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
She also comes off more cunning pre-Pieta than now, as she didn't fall for Rubel's lure then.
Not falling for Rubel's lure is an example of smarts; it has nothing to do with cunning. Rubel himself, on the other hand, is extremely cunning - and pretty much the polar opposite of Miria in every aspect.
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Old 2010-08-04, 03:15   Link #245
Fenrir_valindri
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I don't have much time at the moment to get into discussion, but I'd just like to say:

HA! I told you you anti-Miria conspirators that she would still attack the Organization even if she was alone, and here some people were claiming she was manipulating her comrades to go attack the Organization with her.

---------

That aside, I agree that this is totally in character for Miria, if a bit rash. The Organization's strongest warriors are out of commision, and she already saw the strength of #3 and #5 (who are clearly no challenge to her).

The big surprise was the shrimp twins, although by Rubel's own words, Miria will probably defeat them both (though whether they will be alive or dead afterwords is another matter entirely). I am worried what the Organization's "final trump card" will be.

My guess is that the MiB that Miria plans on killing are not so much the helpless human Miria thinks they are (I know, rather obvious from our perspective), or something that has to do with the Dragons.

Raki doesn't seem a likely option, simply because not enough time has passed for him to have even arrived at the Organization, much less so for them to somehow turn him into the Organization's "final trump card."
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Old 2010-08-04, 03:16   Link #246
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I'll say this brutally:Miria was an idiot.
Attacking the org with a solo action is just plain stupidity,it was absolutely obvious that the org had some other secrets to protect themselves.
And btw Miria being the strongest is BS,the org was making plans to defeat AO-level enemies (and who know what else) while Miria strenght is CLEARLY inferior to the abyssals.
....and btw Claire is already stronger than Miria if she fight seriously with the QS,infact now the only living beings on the island that can survive a QS attack are Priscilla and maybe some other org's secret weapon.
About the new twins: we know almost nothing about them but even if their soul link is clearly better than Alicia-Beth i don't know why but i doubt that they are as strong as Alicia,to tell the truth i'm not very impressed with them,but maybe that's due to the fact that we come from a fight between Prissy and CtD where the powers involved are immensely superior.

edit:.......now that i think about it, even if it would be VERY strange for a lot of reasons,do you think that Miria went to the org knowing perfectly that it was possible that she couldn't win fighting normally so she is ready to fully awaken in a worst-case scenario?
If that's the case this would explain a bit why she went for a solo mission, and awakened-Miria should be AO-level,inferior to Priscilla and CtD but still too much for the org to handle atm (unless they have some other secrets,you never know with them....).

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2010-08-04 at 03:31.
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Old 2010-08-04, 04:36   Link #247
LONEWOLF13
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Originally Posted by Newhope View Post
Put yourself in her shoes and think a little bit and you'll see it's not that stupid.
Like many already said she will throw her live away for nothing not to mansion she wont last long against opponents who are just as fast her (Rigardo for example)


I think she overestimated her chances of succes and by thinking that she still can take tough opponents down with phantom moves only.
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Old 2010-08-04, 05:11   Link #248
przemoc
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
One thing is for certain I'm going to have to adapt to this character change like I did with Clare after ch 100 when she stated she planned all along to awaken against Priscilla. I think all the ghosts have really lost it after Pieta and no one noticed... especially since all of them seemed to have held in there pain and never opened up about it. I mean look at Cynthia who would have guessed she was suicidal too
Well, there isn't anything like change IMO. Miria all the time was covert and tactiturn w.r.t. ORG. She knew many things for so long and only recently revealed them to her comrades. Taking down ORG is her idée fixe after all, but she rather don't want to involve other claymores into this just because they're friends and would follow her. Tabitha is the worst here, I mean the most problematic, because she's the kind of blind follower.

Clare's idée fixe is to shoot away Priscilla. Clare's failed effort to awaken is just the proof how strong is the wrench after killing and being survived by Jean. This full yoma power release stopper was a good thing for her, even if she judged it differently, because everyone know that transformation wouldn't help Clare even a bit. I also believe that all Ghosts, especially Helen beside Clare, are far from awakening now, consciously or unconsciously. But I feel that Miria is one that could somehow overcome this memorial burden.

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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
Sure Miria is out for revenge upon the Organization above all else, but she's also been seen as a social, caring claymore. Cutting down Tabitha without even a word of regret to immobilize her and making a lethal threat to Galatea to not interfere seems out of character to the kinder, gentler Miria we've seen before. This is after all the same girl that cried for her comrades' passing and felt guilty she couldn't save more in a suicide mission.

Contrast that with the girl that just chopped down Tabitha and told Galatea not to stop her "or else" and you can understand why I'm annoyed at Yagi's writing here. At worst Miria should've chopped down Tabitha, then said "Sorry, but this is for your own good". The threat against Galatea could've been tamped down, and nobody would've seen anything quite as unrealistic. I know Yagi's aiming for shock, but why doesn't that shock quite conform to his own character development?

My only hope is that Miria lives somehow and, if captured, the Ghosts mount a heroic rescue effort to save her from the Organization's experimentation.
Galatea would not interfere either way. It was just roughly showing her determination and Galatea surely saw it already through her youki. Miria played tough on purpose, to daunt Tabitha from following her after regaining consciousness. In heart she surely felt pain doing this, but she she knew that this is a necessity. Still it may be not enough for stopping Tabitha.

There is no much difference if you try to understand her motives. (And she cannot cry for lost comrades forever, but on the other hand it doesn't mean she forgot about them. She just keeps this sorrow inside her, just like the other claymores). She is now much stronger mentally. It is possible that 7 years ago she wouldn't be able to unexpectedly attack Tabitha, but she knows her better now and it was only for Tabitha's sake, at least I feel it that way.

Ghosts are mostly involved now in looking at the remains of Clare. And Clarice with Miata are not so helpful, because Galatea was fighting them rather on par and we know that Miria is now a better warrior than former ORG's eye. But who knows, maybe Deneve, Helen & Co will stop watching Priscilla vs Destroyer show and go after Mira...

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Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
Context is important. There is a difference between slipping into a room unnoticed as part of an investigation and sneaking up behind someone in order to ambush them. I never said that she wasn't capable of stealth. I said that sneak attacks were not in her character.
Yes. Still gernot notice about lack of reconnaissance is important. The only explanation is that she was discovered by another ORG eye, possibly trainee. So there was no other way to fight against current generation of claymores. Of course not to kill them - as Rubel indirectly stated, Miria is perfect in making her enemies pass out. But wearing normal claymore armor is not better for making reconnaissance than cloak, so it looks like it wasn't in her mind from the beginning which is obviously strange. Even if Galatea gave her useful information, still sneaking into ORG should give useful data about current researches etc.

Maybe Maria saying she confirmed all the revelations was a partial lie, because she actually never sneaked into ORG. Things possible to check outside of the ORG she possibly checked, but maybe nothing more?

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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
now that i think about it, even if it would be VERY strange for a lot of reasons,do you think that Miria went to the org knowing perfectly that it was possible that she couldn't win fighting normally so she is ready to fully awaken in a worst-case scenario?
If that's the case this would explain a bit why she went for a solo mission, and awakened-Miria should be AO-level,inferior to Priscilla and CtD but still too much for the org to handle atm (unless they have some other secrets,you never know with them....).
Miria had to count in possibility of being unable to destroy the company in one shot, possibly losing her life during it. But she had definitely talk with Galatea before about what she senses in ORG area. She may already know a lot more than Yagi showed us so far. I also think that she may considered awakening being cornered, using this as a last resort solution, just to shred ORG into pieces. She's strong, so she may also believe that performing similarly to Clare, i.e. awakening to some degree, wouldn't stop here from being able to return back later. It's all about mind power and youki flow control.

---

Yes, Rubel is canny and smart, but it's easy to explain. It's not sure in which generation ORG will be taken down, so he cannot be strongly attached to anyone involved in plans of rampaging the ORG from inside and outside. That is also why he's not revealing all truth to everyone and keeps some data in secret from both sides. So... today Miria, tomorrow Genowefa.
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Old 2010-08-04, 07:14   Link #249
MalakTawus
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Miria had to count in possibility of being unable to destroy the company in one shot, possibly losing her life during it. But she had definitely talk with Galatea before about what she senses in ORG area. She may already know a lot more than Yagi showed us so far. I also think that she may considered awakening being cornered, using this as a last resort solution, just to shred ORG into pieces. She's strong, so she may also believe that performing similarly to Clare, i.e. awakening to some degree, wouldn't stop here from being able to return back later. It's all about mind power and youki flow control.
Well,even if she sensed something and knows some secret that Yagi hasn't shown us about the org she definitely knew NOTHING about the AE so it's obvious that there are some (maybe a lot) possible dangers that she is unaware of.
And btw i REALLY doubt that she thinks she can use the same trick as Claire,afterall it's something that for a normal claymore is pratically impossible, the only reason that Claire was able to do it is because she's only a quarter yoma and even for her it's something extremely difficult (maybe now she could control herself,but the first time if it wasn't for Jean......).
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Old 2010-08-04, 08:25   Link #250
Shiek927
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Come on Shiek we theorized about new trainee soul linking twins many chapters ago when Alicia and Beth died... this wasn't out of the blue but Yagi putting in the inevitable. The org will always try to prefect there weapons, after all we've had 79 generations of Claymores for a reason... each was a slight change to see if anything worked better. Teresa and Priscilla are proof of this.

The only difference is regular warriors have taken a back seat to all the new toys. If the org doesn't have a replacement for something they soon will... it's that simple
....Meh.

The thing that grates me, is that I feel Yagi is becoming more and more like the common author in suddenly revealing these new characters mid-chapter for the sake of shock and awe. While I understand why these new trainee twins were inevitable and logical, I can't get over the feeling that they will be defeated next chapter and they will end up as nothing more as one-shot characters and I hate characters like that; it's the same fuss I put over Infected Dauf, who we all knew had no chance against Priscilla to begin with. I understand again that more on the soul-liking project would occur, but at the very least, I was surprised.

While everyone's feelings on Miria seems to be split, I share both; while I agree that her actions match her character(I like what you said Ryus about her intentionally withholding information from the others), I also feel her actions were rash: she could have indeed done Recon or gone for a stealth-assault with her superspeed at the cover of dark or something....their are so many options that were available instead of pounding on their front door and going rambo on everyone.
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Old 2010-08-04, 09:05   Link #251
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grumble.....why do I have a sneaky suspicion that Raki is the trump card and new priscilla, he'll slaughter Miria to show how POWERFUL he is and Clare will have to work with/bond/get something from Priss in order to stop/save him. Since they both have feelings for him and is the one thing that could get them to stop fighting.


ugh
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Old 2010-08-04, 10:07   Link #252
Awakened
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" Miria is perfect at making her enemies pass out". I think Yagi made that up for convenience. Claymores are not suppose to kill humans, so why is she an expert in making people pass out?

Ok maybe she used that skill to infiltrate the Org, but doing so would have made the Org realize that someone is spying on them.

I still think he made that up for convenience.
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Old 2010-08-04, 10:25   Link #253
Joe_fh
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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
@Joe, actually that doesn't seem to be quite true. The average height of modern women is about 160 cm, or 5'3" tall. The average claymore, if you start looking over their heights, is averaging around 175 cm, or 5'9" tall. If you consider that medieval-era women average 155 cm tall or so, then the height difference becomes startling. Yoki may be the great overriding factor here though, allowing "shorties" like Dietrich to fight on a more even-handed basis with their opponents. You'll notice though that few, if any claymores of average yoki strength are under 160 cm tall. The reason seems to be they need greater physique to handle the sword when their yokis aren't up to the task.
That's indeed very true. Claymores are unnaturally tall for the most part. However I wanted to point out that being short and young doesn't mean you aren't powerful. We have a few examples of that so it wouldn't be that strange for them to be strong even at an early age.

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Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
I don't think Miria defeating the new twins illogical at all. At least not with the information we're given. Sure, they have thr same ability as Alicia and Beth. But the reason that Alicia and Beth were so powerful was because they were rank 1 and 2 so that even if they didn't have the soul link they would be powerful. The new twins aren't even ranked as far as we know. Even if they were, there exists a big possibility that the new twins just don't have the same pure power that Alicia and Beth had. The reason that miria is havin troubl is because their soul link is more advanced than Alicia and Beth. But with inferior skill, the new twins losing to Miria isn't illogical at all.
Problem is we have almost no information so we're guessing. True Alicia and Beth were No1 and No2 during two generations because they could go in AB mode and come back. (also the reason why No3 from the new generation should be more powerful than a No3 from the previous but that's another story)

It all comes down to what happens when one awakens completely. For all we know once a Claymore awakens they reach their true potential. The only known way to reach even higher is to half awaken (and we have no clear idea why and how that workds - only theories).

In other words since the twins go in AB form and completely relese their yoki they should be at their highest level. Alicia and Beth's training was for the Soul Link - to increase the time span Alicia could be in AB form and to reduce the strain on Beth's mind (and also for Beth to be able to move at least a bit). Since these new twins are better at the Soul Link (no idea about how long they can keep that up though) that means they are either some prodigies or they went trough sufficient training during those 7 years.

Also while twins are rare, it's not like it isn't easy to find twins on the whole island. Both times the MiBs tried the Soul Link it was with warriors that were No1 and No2. I see no reason why they would do this with less powerfull ones at this point. An AB that is under your control is redundant if it's less powefull than a No1 warrior. The Soul Link is a very huge investment so it's natural for the MiBs to use the best they can find - and I doubt they picked up just one random set of twins and trained them - they probably started training the most proimissing ones.

In other words they should become No1 and No2 in the future. Since they release all their yoki when they awaken that means that they can now reach their maximum strength meaning around AO level, and while they probably don't have a lot of combat experience outside training the fact they both can go in AB form and have full control over all their yoki and awakened body parts should give them the advantage in this case.

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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Not entirely true... Galatea specified the Riful was the youngest to reach the pinnacle. meaning the peak of her power level and implying most don't reach it at that age, young ones that strong are rare in other words.
That's true, but as I said when one awakens doesn't that mean they reach the peak of their power? Problem is we don't really know how training prior to awakening actually affects someone someone overall power. Fact is these twins went trough enough training to be able to do the Soul Link on a higher level than Alicia and Beth, which by the time they could do it were already No1 and No2 (though we can't say this for sure, the fact remains that Beth as a No2 couldn't do what the second twin here can)

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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Also why would Clare's class train for an entire year if time after becoming hybrids didn't matter. It varies between warriors when they reach the pinnacle of their powers. Mitia is a prime example of someone like Riful but Clare didn't get a rank until she was much older and Miria didn't become number 6 for quite some time either.
Yes that's very true but you're talking about regular Claymores here. I would imagine that if one awakens after they have just become a Claymore they won't have as much power as if they awaken after a year though there is no reason for that to be true. Either way it doesn't seem like these twins are without any training or even more so since they were made Claymores from a very early age they probably trained a lot more than just 1 year.


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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Also these shrimp twins are symbolless... clearly implying they haven't reached the pinnacle of their powers... so it's not a stretch of the imagination that they are weaker than Alicia and Beth but more developed soul-link warriors. Therefore being well with-in Miria's ability to take on. Also Dae didn't consider using them since he knew they weren't ready, unlike Alicia and Beth.
Might be true however, at this point the MiBs don't need new Claymores on the island. They now have found a reliable way to control an AB more powerful than a No1 warrior adn they are sure they'll eliminate all major threats on the island (since they don't know about Prissy's true power nor the ghosts) In other words they might not be given a symbol even after they are ready since we have no idea how the Claymores on the continent are used.

But yes it probably means they are still trainees. In shor at this point they are probably a less powerfull than Alicia and Beth in terms of how they can actually fight (in short they lack combat experience) but on par when in comes to yoki. They can also switch between AB and normal form in a instant so that gives them another edge. In short they are close to AO level and if Miria can take out those two it will be plain weird imo.


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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Finally IMHO this trump card was the orgs defense in case Alicia and Beth and the AFs failed to kill Riful, and why they didn't fret about knowing Priscilla was still out there somewhere. So the org didn't go all in against her but as always played it safe and logically as always.
There was no ay for Alicia and Beth and the AFs to kill Riful. That was the point, and it was clear that even if Alicia and Beth failed the AF would finish the job. Either way at that point Alicia and Beth were expendable since otherwise they would have taken out Riful the same way they took out Isley and aovoided getting Athe twins and the organization itself in danger.

After all the MiBs should have considered Alicia awakening and becoming an AO herself and yet they were sure they could handle that without their No1 and No2. In other words they had the power to stop an AO without Alicia, Beth and the AFs.


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Originally Posted by Newhope View Post
I doubt the ORGs anywhere near been ready to mass produce soul linking warriors yet, there's one massive hurdle to overcome yet and thats the fact that they need female twins to make them, considering that in our world theres only a set of twins born in every 30-40 pregnancies and roughly half of them will be male combine that with the islands fairly small population and probably lower birth survival rate due to there lower science level than ours twins will be fairly rare.
Well I don't mean mass produce right now - I mean that after Alicia and Beth these new twins are the finishd product - basically the MiBs have the template to produce Soul Linking warriors.

It's true that it's hard to find twins, however since the MiBs are a huge organization and they have a lot of power and money I'm sure they can find twins, they can even use some from the mainland now that they know how to make the soul link work.

Of course most of the twins they find won't be good enough and won't be worth developing since I can't imagine why they would waste efforts on ones they would be less powerful than the top 5 at least. The Soul Linking Claymore would still be rare but my point was that all they need now to make them work is twins and time since it's no longer an experiment.


And as I mentioned before Miria had no plan this chapter. The only one who could detect her is Galatea and that's because she is the ultimate eye at this point. It's highly unlikely that the MiBs would have created someone better. Alos if the have an eye it's probably colser to Alicia, Beth and Riful to keep an "eye" on things there. Sorry for repeating this again but Miria's view on how to take down and Organization are really not what I would expect from a character like her.

What revan said here http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=243 is very true.

While Ryus has a point that there were many hints that Miria wanted to do this on her own acting like this won't do any good. You can't really destroy an organization by fighting them on your own, though if she just wants to die trying to avange her comrades this is the best way to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
I think all the ghosts have really lost it after Pieta and no one noticed... especially since all of them seemed to have held in there pain and never opened up about it. I mean look at Cynthia who would have guessed she was suicidal too
Kind of makes you wonder Really one would say that after so much time they would be more open about their true feelings. The weirdest part is that they all fail to consider the feeling of their friends all the time - it's like they don't even try.

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Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
" Miria is perfect at making her enemies pass out". I think Yagi made that up for convenience. Claymores are not suppose to kill humans, so why is she an expert in making people pass out?

Ok maybe she used that skill to infiltrate the Org, but doing so would have made the Org realize that someone is spying on them.

I still think he made that up for convenience.
I was also confused by that part. Claymores are trained to kill and that's the only thing they do. Why would one be good at making their enemies pass out when they need to kill them. It seriously doesn't make sense.

There are a lot of things left unsaid but this is long enough as it is.
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Old 2010-08-04, 11:12   Link #254
klare
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Originally Posted by Tevourious View Post
grumble.....why do I have a sneaky suspicion that Raki is the trump card and new priscilla, he'll slaughter Miria to show how POWERFUL he is and Clare will have to work with/bond/get something from Priss in order to stop/save him. Since they both have feelings for him and is the one thing that could get them to stop fighting.
i agree that Raki might be the trump card but i hope u will not be right about Miria, tho she looks like she will not survive but i really want her to be one of the ones left standing in the very end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
" Miria is perfect at making her enemies pass out". I think Yagi made that up for convenience. Claymores are not suppose to kill humans, so why is she an expert in making people pass out?

Ok maybe she used that skill to infiltrate the Org, but doing so would have made the Org realize that someone is spying on them.

I still think he made that up for convenience.
not sure which one u read, but the translation i read was "She is really strong to disable them without killing them"...

my thoughts on the chapter is this is what Miria will do, taking down the org without dragging her friends with her, she has prepared to die in doing that

what happened to Clare and the rest?

now, another month of waiting...
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Old 2010-08-04, 11:23   Link #255
irvinethearcher
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What i am still asking myself is how they managed to get alicia and beth that strong.
they must have had a whole program with many pairs of twins from whom everyone besides alicia and beth were discarded. They can not produce an abyssal one with one try.
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Old 2010-08-04, 13:09   Link #256
Shiek927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
What i am still asking myself is how they managed to get alicia and beth that strong.
they must have had a whole program with many pairs of twins from whom everyone besides alicia and beth were discarded. They can not produce an abyssal one with one try.
Honestly, I don't know - sheer training I suppose.

The thing is, they never once got an accurate measure of Riful's power, and hiding her true power was one of her best traits; that's why I was so sure that Alicia and Beth would be weaker then her. (They have numerous witness accounts and history to be gauge at Riful's abilities; so they basically know what they are up against, even if they have never met her before.)

The opposite however ended up occuring and Alicia(at least) ended up being stronger then her, without any sort of measurement. The only explanation I can think of is simply training training training, as well as the surprise damage from the Eaters.

It's not much of an explanation, but I can't think of anything else.

What I do know however, is that it took all this time, plus the seven years, for Alicia to get that strong; she did not get that strong overnight. From the moment we first heard of her when Riful and Dauf first departed their mountain lair, she's been made to beat Riful.

These two trainees; although we don't know how long they have been around, surely could have not have secretly had as much time as Alicia and Beth, or Miria would have definitely heard about them by now. They truly have to be trainees in the sense that they just showed up and began(perhaps late during the seven years).

That's why I think they are more then likely weak, or very weak; they simply could not have made progress to be a significant threat, otherwise we would have heard about them by now.
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Old 2010-08-04, 14:01   Link #257
Nixl
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Enjoyed the chapter, it will potentially tie Raki back into the mix. Although I did have my hopes up when Tab was slashed through and I am left wondering whether Miria will be captured in the end.

The new twins show that the Org is perfecting a process by training both twins to actively fight. They seem willing to push any corner to achieve a better product, which shows their cunning and possibly their desperation (over the war). The org is making great strides with Twins and Abyss Feeders and so I am not too surprised if they still have a few experiments to play.
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Old 2010-08-04, 14:30   Link #258
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People really need to sit back and think about Claymore it's why I like it so much, this chapter is classic Yagi work on the surface it looks like a crappy bleach chapter yet think about it and everything fits Miria acting the way she is in character and the ORG having a back up pair of twins is only logical hell even having other things up there sleeves is pretty much a fact.
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Old 2010-08-04, 14:49   Link #259
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Honestly, I don't know - sheer training I suppose.

The thing is, they never once got an accurate measure of Riful's power, and hiding her true power was one of her best traits; that's why I was so sure that Alicia and Beth would be weaker then her. (They have numerous witness accounts and history to be gauge at Riful's abilities; so they basically know what they are up against, even if they have never met her before.)

The opposite however ended up occuring and Alicia(at least) ended up being stronger then her, without any sort of measurement. The only explanation I can think of is simply training training training, as well as the surprise damage from the Eaters.

It's not much of an explanation, but I can't think of anything else.

What I do know however, is that it took all this time, plus the seven years, for Alicia to get that strong; she did not get that strong overnight. From the moment we first heard of her when Riful and Dauf first departed their mountain lair, she's been made to beat Riful.

These two trainees; although we don't know how long they have been around, surely could have not have secretly had as much time as Alicia and Beth, or Miria would have definitely heard about them by now. They truly have to be trainees in the sense that they just showed up and began(perhaps late during the seven years).

That's why I think they are more then likely weak, or very weak; they simply could not have made progress to be a significant threat, otherwise we would have heard about them by now.
Sheer training doesn't make a number one claymore like riful, rafaella or isley. Talent is important too. There is also no explanation why those twins aren't strong enough to beat miria if alicia and beth could take on riful.
I am not sure if the zemas are really the parents of alicia and beth or if she simply are the parents of some nameless pair of twins which did not survive the organisation's training. It is true that alicia and beth were first unable to beat riful. they were only able to damage her up to 50% and die. But i think this is remarkable too. No normal number one could achieve this against an abyssal one. Therefore even young alicia/beth were able to beat the hell out of "after seven years" miria.
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Old 2010-08-04, 16:04   Link #260
Fenrir_valindri
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I have brought this up in the past, but it bears mentioning again.

The reason for Alicia and Beth's strength is probably continuous "partial awakening."

We know for a fact that coming back from past your limit makes you stronger, and Alicia and Beth no doubt went over their limit multiple times while perfecting their controlled awakening.

So it stands to reason continually doing this, combined with their harsh training, is what made them as strong as they were.


-------

As for Miria's chances, don't forget that Miria herself is probably as strong as any #1 as an partially awakened #6 who went through years of training in the North.

Combine this with how easily she defeated Audrey and Rachel, the shrimp twins are the only thing that we knew off so far that have even slowed her down.

Of course, Claymore being how it is, there is a pretty good chance that whatever "trump card" it is that the Organization has will be too strong for Miria, and she will either die ( ), get captured (even worse), or be forced to retreat.
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