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Old 2010-08-04, 16:29   Link #261
irvinethearcher
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After a chat with rubel she will retreat on her own free will i think.
And you're right that those shrimp twins would not stand a chance against miria or clare.
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Old 2010-08-04, 17:09   Link #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tevourious View Post
grumble.....why do I have a sneaky suspicion that Raki is the trump card
-Didn't he get kidnapped by them just a few minutes ago? I don't think I would mind him being their trump card but if he is, damn those Organization guys must move and work at the speed of light or something.
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Old 2010-08-04, 17:13   Link #263
Ryus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Didn't he get kidnapped by them just a few minutes ago? I don't think I would mind him being their trump card but if he is, damn those Organization guys must move and work at the speed of light or something.
That's impossible... Dae traveled via another route to be on the safe side and the fools of the retrieval squad would know what the bleep to do to make Raki a trump card, let alone in time to defeat Miria.

So I agree with your first comment, that it just can't be Raki.
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Old 2010-08-04, 17:20   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
So I agree with your first comment, that it just can't be Raki.
-Agreed. Instead here's my vote: a Dragon-kin that defected to the Organization. Turns out, its from his flesh and blood that they make Yoma and from Yoma, they make Claymores.
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Old 2010-08-04, 18:51   Link #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Agreed. Instead here's my vote: a Dragon-kin that defected to the Organization. Turns out, its from his flesh and blood that they make Yoma and from Yoma, they make Claymores.
Whether or not it's a dragonkin or not... the idea of it being the source is decent enough. Though if it's on the island who does the mainland make it's hybrids... unless there is more than one of them.

Also just my opinion and it's based on virtually nothing but shouldn't the source be wild and untamable thus explaining the yoma's behavior... Also if it is "the source" how did Miria not know of its presence? Since if it is needed for the orgs experiments is logically should have been there all along. Miria did research the org pretty extensively back then, so either it's just got to the org or it's something new IMHO. Time will tell I suppose...

Though I must say the idea that the dragon is the source kinda bugs me since if the dragon is the source what's the source of the dragon?
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Old 2010-08-04, 20:01   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Though I must say the idea that the dragon is the source kinda bugs me since if the dragon is the source what's the source of the dragon?
-That's like asking the age old question: what came first, the chicken or the egg? You can go in circles forever .
**EDIT: This was proven recently.***

-But really, a Dragon-kin being the source of Yoma and Claymores is just an idea. I doubt its really true considering how hyped they were by Miria's hypothesis. The sheer fact that their power requires the use of Awakened beings raises the question of how could the Organization even get it. But if the Dragon-kin is the source, and the Organization uses it for Yoma production, then you know they'd have it stashed somewhere where only the head honcho of the Organization can get to it. Which means Rubel wouldn't be alble to tell Miria everything and she wouldn't be able to find this secret out without getting too close to the handler's suspicions.
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Last edited by Luminion Lancer; 2010-08-04 at 21:46.
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Old 2010-08-04, 20:02   Link #267
Tevourious
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hmm how about this??

What if Raki ends up being to Priss, what Clare is to Theresa.

IE: What if during their journey Raki somehow ended up with a bit of Priss inside him, due to something Priss herself did, or perhaps Isley.

This would explain why he was able to resist those rods. Also would be a good reason to think the Orgz can use him.

The problem is, how would he react to Clare killing Priss?
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Old 2010-08-04, 20:05   Link #268
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The way I see it the ORGs main problem in the war is the dragons so if there going to find a way to beat them the frist logical thing to do is research the dragons themselfs which is the main reason I think the DoD are the base from which Yoma and claymores are created.
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Old 2010-08-04, 20:09   Link #269
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It would be kind of cool I admit, if the trump card was actually a captured Dragon. Controlling it is the difficult question here, but it feels like a good opportunity to actually see one.
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Old 2010-08-04, 20:41   Link #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-That's like asking the age old question: what came first, the chicken or the egg? You can go in circles forever .
The egg came to be long before chickens came about. I mean what else did dinos hatch from?

Now in all seriousness I feel "sources" should stay out of this... Keep it simple; they are, they where once made by man long ago, now they are be perfected as weapons by new men for evil purposes. Simple and relevant, if the "source" is ever brought up people will ask where did the dragons come from then whether or not yoma are made from dragons (and if they are people will ask why the dragons side with humans but the yuma just run wild). I find this plot point lame and having been done by countless other stories... so for the love of god Yagi don't touch this plot angle. Let sleeping dogs lie, this will just get far too messy if you dwell on origins any more than already having been done. Lets focus on the characters lives, the present, and the future and leave out all the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-But really, a Dragon-kin being the source of Yoma and Claymores is just an idea. I doubt its really true considering how hyped they were by Miria's hypothesis. The sheer fact that their power requires the use of Awakened beings raises the question of how could the Organization even get it. But if the Dragon-kin is the source, and the Organization uses it for Yoma production, then you know they'd have it stashed somewhere where only the head honcho of the Organization can get to it. Which means Rubel wouldn't be alble to tell Miria everything and she wouldn't be able to find this secret out without getting too close to the handler's suspicions.
Now as pure speculation about what this trump card might be I find "the source" as far better than Raki (unless we find out the timeline given to us is very off, which seems implausible based on no one commenting about the new powers they sense out west).

I personally am more inclined to lean towards it being something new which Miria. Lets face the launch phase of both the soul link twins and AFs is complete... it's now just about perfecting them which requires a smaller research team. So that means the org has had the brain power needed to devote to an even newer line of research for a few years now and that is more than enough time for gen 1 to be ready enough to take on Miria. How effective it will be is another matter...

This is why I put out the idea of a half 1/4 yoma hybrid warrior (like Clare, which I stupidly said was made from Teresa not thinking about how people would react... which obviously cause half the site to flip ) and half AB flesh and blood. The part of this woman that is made from part Claymore flesh and blood should dilute the AF part put into her, enough for her to still have a mind of sort that isn't only thinking about eating but strong enough to be a major threat unlike Clare was at first (hence it could have received some training giving it eve more power and skills). Throw in some nifty abilities like healing, expendable limbs, a swords, super speed and it being a brutal/cold/calculating in a fight as Alicia was and Miria will be fighting for her very life. Now clearly this weapon will have a down side or Rubel would have been forced to act, since his duty is to prevent the org from getting the perfect weapon and to bring about their downfall from within. Maybe he's so happy since Miria's presence will force them to release it

Upon thinking about this I came to realize that if this being is made from half awakened flesh/blood and AB flesh/blood then it should retain even more of it's mind and be even stronger. This is what I think Rubel fears... besides the obvious of Clare on day being able to awaken and retain her mind on her own.
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Old 2010-08-04, 20:59   Link #271
Joe_fh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I have brought this up in the past, but it bears mentioning again.

The reason for Alicia and Beth's strength is probably continuous "partial awakening."

We know for a fact that coming back from past your limit makes you stronger, and Alicia and Beth no doubt went over their limit multiple times while perfecting their controlled awakening.

So it stands to reason continually doing this, combined with their harsh training, is what made them as strong as they were.


-------

As for Miria's chances, don't forget that Miria herself is probably as strong as any #1 as an partially awakened #6 who went through years of training in the North.

Combine this with how easily she defeated Audrey and Rachel, the shrimp twins are the only thing that we knew off so far that have even slowed her down.
I'm not really sure about those partial awakenings. I mean if the MiBs really knew about them they would apple have applied it one many regular Claymores. I'm not even sure if they are at all aware of that fact except for Rubel of course. And neither Alicia nor Beth went trough a partial awakening. They go all out and their mind is completely free from the strain. If this had any effect on overall strength every time an AB went into AB and back to human they should have technically powered up.
In short I believe the MiBs used more than one pair of twins and only focused on the ones that showed the most potential. After all unlike most girls that become Claymores Alicia and Beth were very little so they had plenty of time to observe their progress.

Miria should be far from a No1. In my view she's at best as strong as Irene. It really doesn't make sense for her to be stronger.
First while partial awakenings give you a power boost they don't really give you that much. Sure she became a lot stronger than a No6 but it's impossible for her to be near a No1 level.
The training thing was always something vague. First of all the trained without using their yoki - in other words they could only improve that much and the attribute they could improve the most was their speed. Speed however doesn't give you a power boost. There isn't any reason why training without using yoki will make you more powerful while using it.
Another thing is that if training could make you as powerful as a No1 with only one partial awakening almost everyone would have been able to do it - the only difference would have been the time it takes. Miria seriously moved through the ranks after her partial awakening and as far as I remember there wasn't a second one.

Audrey and Rachel were defeated for the sake of the story and to introduce more powerful enemies. I can't even imagine how it's possible for her to do that. If this was the case than when Miria released her yoki she should have been able to take down Alicia and Beth without a problem.

I can't really see why people assume the shrimp twins are weak and in terms of yoki weaker than Alicia & Beth. Sure they'll probably get defeated in order to bring out the trump card the same way Audrey and Rachel were.

As for the Dragon Kin being the trump card I doubt that. The problem is that the trump card should be something stronger than what they had meaning stronger than an AO. If the dragon Kins were that strong they would have won a long time ago. They are probably at best as strong as the top 3 Claymores.

The idea that yomas are created from the dragon kin is not really that strange. For one side to be able to hold off the Dragon Kins it means it was possible to kill them - sure it was probably extremely hard but not impossible. The only image we have of them shows they look very similar to the ABs. Maybe the MiBs were somehow able to create the yoma using the flesh of a dragon kin by using the dna map but it didn't go that well, so they decided to implant it into humans. Since they didn't have enough flesh from Dragon kins as they were really hard to kill the MiBs used flesh from the creatures they created using the same DNA and had a huge supply of. It makes sense when you think about it.

Maybe if there is a warrior directly implanted with the Dragon Kin flesh he/she could be really strong. I doubt something as simple as that would be a trump card in the end though.
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Old 2010-08-04, 21:25   Link #272
Skirata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-That's like asking the age old question: what came first, the chicken or the egg? You can go in circles forever .
Actually, we know now (thanks to the Brits) that the chicken came first....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6676542.shtml
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Old 2010-08-04, 21:43   Link #273
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Originally Posted by Skirata View Post
Actually, we know now (thanks to the Brits) that the chicken came first....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6676542.shtml
-Wow, and this happened just a bit under a month ago. I stand corrected.
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Old 2010-08-05, 04:01   Link #274
Dj0rel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Didn't he get kidnapped by them just a few minutes ago? I don't think I would mind him being their trump card but if he is, damn those Organization guys must move and work at the speed of light or something.
We don't know if it's just a few minutes ago or not. There's nothing that indicates at what time is this happening. For all we know events of chapter 106 are chronologically set after chapter 105. Raki got kidnapped ten chapters ago. That could be a plenty of time. Remember, the Organization was ready to send Abyss Feeders after Riful as soon as they found out that Isley is dead. So I guess it means they can work pretty fast.

Besides, this whole "the trump card can't be Raki 'cause there couldn't have been enough time to turn him into one" kinda reminds me of "the little girl traveling with Raki can't be Priscilla 'cause she's too small".
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Old 2010-08-05, 04:17   Link #275
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Well,the problem that we have when we try to understand if a warrior is n.1 material is that the only normal warrior that we have seen to be at that level is Raph.
Now Miria doesn't seems to be as strong as Raph (if you use their fight against Claire to compare the two) and Irene too,with her QS could very easily be n.1 material (but in her gen there were Teresa and Priscilla....) judging how surprised was Raph when she saw Claire's QS,well it's also possible that Claire's QS is a lot stronger than Irene's QS......
The only uncertainty is what happens when Miria release her yoki and IMO she won't became a lot stronger than now.Sure her physical strenght will increase but she's not someone that use that kind of approach in battle,and her new mirage tecnique it's been said very clearly to be the best one,so if she use her yoki powers she can be even faster but her agility will be compromised....not to mention the fact that the old tecnique brings some serious stamina-problem.

About the new twins, the simple fact that Rubel consider very possible that Miria defeats them is proof enough that they are a lot weaker than Alicia-Beth.
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Old 2010-08-05, 05:37   Link #276
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I wouldn't use the Claire vs Raph fight to judge how strong they are that was basically a dream after all.

Been n.1 material doesn't mean that they can instantly tap into that strength it probably takes a warrior all there training and serveral years worth of active service to start to understand where there limits are and how to use there strength to it's fullest, it's the main reason I think Teresa won against Priscilla she had the experience and could use her strength to it's max where as Priscilla didn't have the experience to use her power to full effect.
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Old 2010-08-05, 06:42   Link #277
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@Malak: Ideed we don't really have many examples of a regular No1 warrior. Tpah is the only one we have (and Rosemary but we know next to nothing about her really) However what we do know is that all the No1 have a similar power level with the difference being small enough to call the equal. (Teresa and Prissy are of course out af this). Irene is the next best thing to a No1 since as you asid she was a No2 During Teresa's time and so it was impossible for her to be a No1. Irene was probably the strongest No2 ever since the QS is faster than The Lion King even if his overall speed was probably higher than hers (though he was awakened)

Anyways these comparisons don't really work since they aren't that reliable - they aren't direct confrontations after all. Her overall yoki didn't increase during those 7 years and she sealed it away so when she starts using it again she'll be able to pull out the phantom yoki powered move probably 2-3 times more than what she could do while fighting Rigaldo. While her speed would increase a lot overall she won't last long with that.

Well I can see Miria winning against the new twins at this point even if they were as strong as Alicia and Beth (which I still believe is the case). Audrey is in a similar position to Irene - she is a top class warrior that can't move up in the ranks because the rank above is occupied by someone extremely pwoerful - in this case someone that can go AO, and in Irene's case Teresa. With this in mind you could say that Miria took down a potential No1 warrior without using yoki and with one strike. And Rubel said there was a huge difference in power which means that Miria can take on an AO and win (if we go along with all this) and I sure find that hard to believe. I probably ovedid it a bit because I feel like I keep repeating myself for no reason the last few pages - so sorry about that guys.

Alos considering that Audrey is a defensive warrior how can she be taken down with one attack? It's not like Miria killed her, so if she is still alive she should be able to release around 70% and regeerate in a few sceonds/minutes - and yet she didn't. It indeed looks as if they are only filler characters that are just there for the sake of someone being there.

Even Ruble said it was only natural for Alicia and Beth's replacements to be there along with other things yet Miria just walked in on her own with "guns" blazing. It really keeps bugging me

@Newhope: What you say is true, but these aren't normal warriors we're talking about - they awaken completely - than means acess to all the power from the start. The whole finding ones limits doesn't apply here at all. Sure they probably can't utilize all their power in the best way possible but that doesn't change the fact that they have so much power.
Best example for an AO acting in a similar way is Beth. She was crearly out of control, and I doubt she was even thinking or applying what she learnt during her training, yet she was able to attack Prissy and inflict some damage on her. Besides the shrimp twins should be better at using their awakened from that Beth at that moment since unlike her they both trained to awaken completely and their bodies are under their control and not some primal instincts like in Beth's case.
And yes that is of the reasons why Teresa won against Prissy (along with a couple of improtant factors) but again the same thing doesn't apply here on the same level since on of the foes can actually awaken completely and has done so before while the other while really fast can't read the attacks the same way Teresa could.

And again sorry for saying the same things so many times but so far I can't find a reasonable explanation for any of those. (same goes for why Miria cut down Tabitha in a way that looked way more gruesome when compared to when she cut down Audrey.. )
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Old 2010-08-05, 07:27   Link #278
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Just been a defensive warrior doesn't mean they won't be taken out by the same attack that would take out an Offensive warrior it just means the recover from injurys faster and can grow missing body parts back.
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Old 2010-08-05, 07:37   Link #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus
The egg came to be long before chickens came about. I mean what else did dinos hatch from?

Now in all seriousness I feel "sources" should stay out of this... Keep it simple; they are, they where once made by man long ago, now they are be perfected as weapons by new men for evil purposes. Simple and relevant, if the "source" is ever brought up people will ask where did the dragons come from then whether or not yoma are made from dragons (and if they are people will ask why the dragons side with humans but the yuma just run wild). I find this plot point lame and having been done by countless other stories... so for the love of god Yagi don't touch this plot angle. Let sleeping dogs lie, this will just get far too messy if you dwell on origins any more than already having been done. Lets focus on the characters lives, the present, and the future and leave out all the rest.
That, I have to agree with. I'm already kind of hoping that Yagi will one day create a Compendium after the manga is complete with a full complete history of every(major at least) character. For now, in terms of the manga, Yagi should just focus on the present and the future, and not waste time explaining the no-doubt humongous details of the origins; their's time for that afterwards.
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Old 2010-08-05, 07:39   Link #280
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@Joe_fh: You must be joking right?
Audrey may be in a similar position to Irene but she is obviously A LOT weaker than Irene.
Audrey isn't a warrior with n.1 potential at all,infact even the n.3 spot seems too high for her if you compare with Galatea,probably because the org in these last years focused mainly on their other secret projects.
Against Irene's QS Audrey would pass from life to death without even realizing it,she's a great warrior but she's not a n.3 only because Alicia and Beth are AO level,infact even Miata would have a lower number than Audrey if she wasn't so unstable.This means that Miria never defeated a warrior with n.1 potential and that she OBVIOUUSLY can't defeat an AO enemy,so if Rubel says that Miria can defeat the new twins it's logical to conclude that they are not as strong as Ali-Beth combo (even if their soul link is better).

Quote:
I wouldn't use the Claire vs Raph fight to judge how strong they are that was basically a dream after all.
Well,first of all that wasn't really a dream so Raph's ability was the real deal,but anyway it's a fact that IN that "dream" Raph was able to parry the WC and defeat Claire as if it was nothing (something that Miria would never be able to do),knowing that Raph is n.1 material this isn't so strange.Btw even considering that Raph and "dream-Raph" have different strenght, my point is that "dream-Raph" was stronger than Claire using the WC but was defeated easily by the QS so dream-Raph would be defeated by Irene too.
Since Miria+new ghost versus Claire+WC is an equal fight it's clear that Miria is weaker than dream-Raph and Irene,and since Irene is AT BEST n.1 material,Miria obviously isn't.
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