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Old 2012-07-31, 09:32   Link #281
ZeroIchiNi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Oh, wait, are you assuming Nanoha was still under her limiter when she blocked the attack? She clearly wasn't.
She wasn't? I though she was.

One of these days I should just re-watch Strikers.
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Old 2012-07-31, 09:48   Link #282
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Yeah, that wouldn't make much sense. When the smoke cleared, Nanoha was already in Exceed Mode. Before hand, she wasn't.
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:10   Link #283
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I'll take that as a concession if you fail to ignore evidence again, I've already repeated myself.
You act like Aki will care.
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:21   Link #284
VezSketch
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Ha, "fail to ignore evidence." I just caught that mistake. I'm not sure if Aki's doing it on purpose or not, really.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:38   Link #285
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Ha, "fail to ignore evidence." I just caught that mistake. I'm not sure if Aki's doing it on purpose or not, really.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?
It has been discussed before, and really, it all boils down to a matter of perspective. Most people (especially non-military trained) fail to realise just how destructive conventional weapons can be.

Those fancy moves are not planet breakers, and no, not even mountain breakers.

Magic in the MSLN world is a wonderful thing, but short of specialised orbital launch weapons like the Arc'Enciel, we have not been shown any "really" powerful spells. If anything, most of the spells we have seen are glorified anti-personnel attacks.

Probably the reason why "Mass-based Weapons" are banned in Mid-Childan, because they were vaporising Mages.

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Old 2012-07-31, 10:54   Link #286
VezSketch
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I have evidence to the contrary. Divine Buster and Thunder Smasher pulverized through Garden of Time in a fraction of a second, which I've estimated to be pretty big. Kilometers big. Not only is that powerful but also reflects the speed of their attacks.

Divine Buster Full Power also had an AOE reaching tens of kilometers. They would be able to break a mountain just fine, actually. The few times they're able to showcase how powerful they are, it's actually pretty absurd.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:30   Link #287
Akiyoshi
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I agree wth VezSketch in the absurdity of the power of Nanoha characters. The defense profram of the book of darkness isn't something conventional weapons can deal with. In fact, conventional weapons hardly would compete with an A+ mage or above (Subaru can shrugg off tank shells like nothing ....pointblank, and she's a B+ ranker). Big hitter like Hayate can wipe out cities or at least perform mountain-destroying attacks, ask the wet pants of Fortis and Stella if you don't believe me xDU Nanoha outright vaporized a city with Starlight Breaker, Fate can cast electric storms powerfull enough to bend the ocean at age 9 xDU

Character become much moremodest by the time of StrikerS but during season one and A's they were ridicculously overpowered. Maybe this was the result of Power creep/sweep to balance out the old cast with the new cast and the expanded universe which resulted in the A's cast being nerfed to avoid them moping the floor with everything or being in the need to animate apocaliptic battles against equally powerfull opponents. Still much phlebotinum was needed to justify the nerfing: AMF, limiters, relic powered craddle/Sankt Kaiser. I give kudos to the Numbers for being able to match mages far stronger than them trough tactics, teamwork and strategy rather than plain brute strenght like the Wolkenritter did last season.

By the way, Vez-kun, you haven't answered my question, what was that superpowerfull attack Nanoha blocked with her roudn shield in StrikerS xD?
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:31   Link #288
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Not to mention this little tidbit. That explosion spans hundreds of kilometers.

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or at least perform mountain-destroying attacks
And then Cypha proceeded to fragment the mountain sized iceberg into pieces with a single sword slash. So, yeah, Skane is pretty off the mark. Even while not using actual visuals to calculate the power of their attacks and estimate the size of objects, Nanoha sealed something that supported a multi dimensional earthquake in S1.

Quote:
Nanoha outright vaporized a city with Starlight Breaker
I'm assuming vaporize is your use of poetic license.

What she did in the movie actually fails in comparison to what she actually did in the first season.

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By the way, Vez-kun, you haven't answered my question, what was that superpowerfull attack Nanoha blocked with her roudn shield in StrikerS xD?
Dieci's blast.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-07-31 at 12:57. Reason: Please edit your post and refrain from double posting...
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:44   Link #289
Akiyoshi
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That attack didn't expand "hundreds of kilomoeters", granted that was a possibility, but the attack only expanded a bit outside Yuuno's barrier which was deployed inside a training room aboard a TSAB ship ...so the "hundreds of kilometers" argument isn't possible, otherwise the entire ship should be anhilated xDU

And by the way, none of Signum's spells reach an S- Rank, they're indeed powerfull but lack range and most of them are exclusively anti-personel attacks with few exceptions. Karyuu Issen isn't ranked as far as i know but that's an attack she performs unisoned with Agito (i don't know if she can use a weaker version of the spell on her own). That's why i say rank isn't everythng, Signum lacks wide area attacks and most of her power is applied one on one so she instead became an expert in getting into close range where her attacks are effective. Signum is indeed weaker than Nanoha but the she's still better suited for close combat and managed sucessfully to get into Nanoha's meele range.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:47   Link #290
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Superpowerful explosions like the one depicted in that manga page, I should mention, typically happen when two Breaker attacks collide. ViVid showed us that's what's supposed to happen. So an explosion that big is likely because Hayate's attack collided with Nanoha and Fate's. Kind of a special case.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:55   Link #291
VezSketch
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Even if you assume that both attacks contributed, the explosion still was more than hundreds of kilometers wide and in height.

Quote:
TSAB ship
They weren't in a ship, which would still be irrelevant .... and you can't conveniently ignore visuals because it doesn't mesh with what you believe. The size is based by how it compares to TSAB headquarters, estimated to be much much bigger.

Quote:
none of Signum's spells reach an S- Rank, they're indeed powerfull but lack range and most of them are exclusively anti-personel attacks with few exceptions.
Overall rank and attack rank is different i.e. SLB is AAA in power, but overall S rank. They're S-Rank in power based off what I said in my previous post, not official ranks. Stop ignoring what is actually said.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:56   Link #292
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
And then Cypha proceeded to fragment the mountain sized iceberg into pieces with a single sword slash. So, yeah, Skane is pretty off the mark. Even while not using actual visuals to calculate the power of their attacks and estimate the size of objects, Nanoha sealed something that supported a multi dimensional earthquake in S1.
Cypha is justifable, it was a mountai-sized iceberg being gathered with magic and Cypha just happen to posses a sword that cuts trough magic xDU It wasn't just a slash by the way, it was an energy slash attack.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Dieci's blast.
If you're talking about how she tanked the blast towards the helicopter it was implied she deflected the attack with a blast of her own ...not with a shield, we never saw a shield and Nanoha was helding RH in shooting stance after blocking it.
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:58   Link #293
Rising Dragon
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If you're talking about how she tanked the blast towards the helicopter it was implied she deflected the attack with a blast of her own
... no it wasn't.
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Old 2012-07-31, 12:03   Link #294
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Cypha is justifable, it was a mountai-sized iceberg being gathered with magic and Cypha just happen to posses a sword that cuts trough magic xDU It wasn't just a slash by the way, it was an energy slash attack.
Wow, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. That attack was specifically cast because of it wouldn't be effected by anti magic measures ... it was purely physical. And it wasn't an energy slash attack, occam's razor and all. You also have no evidence of that. And there's also the fact Cypha says she can easily cut through it.

Quote:
If you're talking about how she tanked the blast towards the helicopter it was implied she deflected the attack with a blast of her own ...not with a shield, we never saw a shield and Nanoha was helding RH in shooting stance after blocking it.
Wrong. Nanoha blocked Dieci's blast with her round shield ...

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-07-31 at 12:33.
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Old 2012-07-31, 15:57   Link #295
Keroko
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
No, it wasn't. What's your point, anyway?
Yes it was. That was the entire point of the Teana overdoing it arc in StrikerS. Starlight Breaker accumulates magic beyond the users normal limit, overuse of which can lead to damage. Nanoha found this out the hard way when she got ambushed and her body failed at the wrong time from the overuse, which is why they showed the video to Teana, who was walking towards much a similar pitfall. The point of which is that it isn't only the Blaster system that is dangerous to the body when it comes to Nanoha.
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Old 2012-07-31, 16:10   Link #296
VezSketch
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Yes it was. That was the entire point of the Teana overdoing it arc in StrikerS. Starlight Breaker accumulates magic beyond the users normal limit, overuse of which can lead to damage. Nanoha found this out the hard way when she got ambushed and her body failed at the wrong time from the overuse, which is why they showed the video to Teana, who was walking towards much a similar pitfall. The point of which is that it isn't only the Blaster system that is dangerous to the body when it comes to Nanoha.
Ah, thought you were talking about in StrikerS, which was the thing ... actually being, you know, discussed? No one denied what you're saying. So, yeah, I once again don't see your point since it had no relevance to my post you originally quoted it with.

Edit: Plus, wasn't it her magic use in general? I don't remember it being specifically SLB ...

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-07-31 at 16:21.
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Old 2012-07-31, 16:37   Link #297
Keroko
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Because back in this post you were discussing A's stuff. Hell, your entire base post was pre-StrikerS stuff. And even if you persist that you were "only discussing StrikerS" the first season to mention the whole "Nanoha injured because of SLB" was StrikerS. Regardless of how you look at it, my post was directly related to the point being discussed.

As for SLB, it was specifically singled out as an example and shocked the forwards that someone of her age was using accumulatory canonfire, making it clear that this was something far beyond regular levels. The booklets then went into detail, noting specifically the burden it places on the body when exceeding the users level. Now remember that Nanoha was the only one of the cast using such a technique, connect the dots, and we can see that SLB was one of the main causes for her event.
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Old 2012-07-31, 16:50   Link #298
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Because back in this post you were discussing A's stuff. Hell, your entire base post was pre-StrikerS stuff. And even if you persist that you were "only discussing StrikerS" the first season to mention the whole "Nanoha injured because of SLB" was StrikerS. Regardless of how you look at it, my post was directly related to the point being discussed.
I appreciate the effort, but Aki was specifically citing Fate worrying about Nanoha as a reason why she was somehow not more impressive in magical power. Since we're talking about a specific thing, why would my comment encompass the entire discussion? I never said I was only discussing StrikerS, read what I actually wrote without making baseless assumptions again.

That's what was being talked about with that specific comment. Your post does not follow, especially considering his comment wasn't even relevant in the first place. So, yeah, no relevance. By all means, though, you can keep going.

Quote:
As for SLB, it was specifically singled out as an example and shocked the forwards that someone of her age was using accumulatory canonfire, making it clear that this was something far beyond regular levels. The booklets then went into detail, noting specifically the burden it places on the body when exceeding the users level. Now remember that Nanoha was the only one of the cast using such a technique, connect the dots, and we can see that SLB was one of the main causes for her event.
Uh huh, yet it's specifically cited in the A's manga how dangerous Nanoha's general use of magic was. SLB was not the sole factor and you're overestimating what it apparently does to Nanoha's body.
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Old 2012-07-31, 18:53   Link #299
Keroko
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I appreciate the effort, but Aki was specifically citing Fate worrying about Nanoha as a reason why she was somehow not more impressive in magical power. Since we're talking about a specific thing, why would my comment encompass the entire discussion? I never said I was only discussing StrikerS, read what I actually wrote without making baseless assumptions again.

That's what was being talked about with that specific comment. Your post does not follow, especially considering his comment wasn't even relevant in the first place. So, yeah, no relevance. By all means, though, you can keep going.
In the post Aki replied to you specifically mentioned SLB, how in the world does that make my post concerning SLB unrelated? And even before that a good part of Aki's post was about Nanoha putting her life on the line with dangerous magic, when you then replied that Blaster Mode wasn't involved I pointed out that SLB falls under the dangerous magic category as well. That's the point I was making, and the point you are trying to crawl away from.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Uh huh, yet it's specifically cited in the A's manga how dangerous Nanoha's general use of magic was. SLB was not the sole factor and you're overestimating what it apparently does to Nanoha's body.
集束砲 – Accumulatory Cannonfire
(StS DVD3)
Spells which uses one’s own mana to accumulate released Mana in the surroundings, then reuses and re-releases it as a bombardment attack.
These accumulatory skills are unique in that they allow reuse of Mana which has already been used. Furthermore, in addition to magic released by the user, Mana released by any opponents can also be collected and reused, allowing enormous output potential. For Bombardment Mages, these attacks can be said to be nigh-impossible ultimate attacks; however, in cases dealing with Mana levels greatly exceeding the user’s limits, the burden placed on the user’s body can be prodigious.

Combined with lots of people going "What the hell!?" over it.

I can't really find the part in the A's manga that says her general magic usage is as dangerous though. The closest would be her training routine, which, while stressing it was very strenuous, was brushed aside quite easily.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:13   Link #300
VezSketch
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In the post Aki replied to you specifically mentioned SLB, how in the world does that make my post concerning SLB unrelated?
Uh, simply because SLB was mentioned doesn't mean the strain it puts on her body is relevant to what was being talked about.

Quote:
And even before that a good part of Aki's post was about Nanoha putting her life on the line with dangerous magic, when you then replied that Blaster Mode wasn't involved I pointed out that SLB falls under the dangerous magic category as well.
Which wasn't relevant to what was being talked about in the first place, that's my point.

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That's the point I was making, and the point you are trying to crawl away from.
There's nothing to crawl away from. You're exaggerating.

Quote:
集束砲 – Accumulatory Cannonfire
(StS DVD3)
Snip
I'm aware of all of that. You still have nothing substantial that says SLB is the main reason behind her strain, nor is it said specifically in-series.

Quote:
Combined with lots of people going "What the hell!?" over it.
So? You can easily attribute that to the insanity behind the power of the attack, much like when Teana dismissed Nanoha being an AAA rank mage at age 9 as stupid rumors in the manga. Their reactions are essentially meaningless and doesn't help your argument, no idea why you're herping on it.

Quote:
I can't really find the part in the A's manga that says her general magic usage is as dangerous though. The closest would be her training routine, which, while stressing it was very strenuous, was brushed aside quite easily.
Both Chrono and Yuuno agreed it would be too much if she continued like that, which she evidently did. It wasn't simply brushed aside.
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