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Old 2010-08-16, 00:23   Link #81
Kafriel
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make a balance Kubo!
Aizen has lost three units, he has three left (four, including him).
The good guys have lost: one hand (Hacchi), one arm (Soifon) and two more units (Love&Rose). I'd say the battle is mostly balanced, it's just that the good guys never die for good!
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Old 2010-08-16, 01:08   Link #82
sayde
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Aizen has lost three units, he has three left (four, including him).
The good guys have lost: one hand (Hacchi), one arm (Soifon) and two more units (Love&Rose). I'd say the battle is mostly balanced, it's just that the good guys never die for good!
Love and Rose got roughed up, but they're definitely still able to fight on if need be.

The only real loss on the good guys side so far is Ukitake. Sorry if if that offends any Rangiku or Momo fans. But who knows. The good guys might be in for another loss pretty soon when you consider who's finally stepping up to the plate.
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Old 2010-08-16, 01:13   Link #83
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good guys lost half a unit
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Old 2010-08-16, 02:40   Link #84
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
The only real loss on the good guys side so far is Ukitake. Sorry if if that offends any Rangiku or Momo fans.
I'm a pretty big Hinamori fan, but holy tits does she suck on the battlefield compared to Ukitake.
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Old 2010-08-16, 08:31   Link #85
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I'm a pretty big Hinamori fan, but holy tits does she suck on the battlefield compared to Ukitake.
"holy tits" indeed. lmao
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:26   Link #86
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I don't even know how you can possibly defend these match-ups and battles. They have "horrible" written all over them. I don't care if you're not showing any fear or emotion, if you're the released NUMBER ONE espada and you get ass-f***ed by a shikai... That doesn't speak much for any of the hollows in Hueco Mondo who are beneath you. I mean, what, is that all the fortitude you got as Espada numero uno? You can make all the excuses in the world for him: He was the best. And he didn't even fight -anyone- at full strength. NONE of the Captains he fought went bankai. Stark is a piece of trash, I'm afraid, too lowly for them to go all out.

As for Halibel and her fight with Hitsugaya, I'm pretty sure if she was able to break out on her own, there was really no need for WW to come to her rescue and help her out, was there?

Seriously, defending the might of the Espada is a waste of time, they suck. They couldn't defeat vicecaptains, they couldn't defeat Captains. NO ONE DIED. Oooo my arm was cut off! Oh well, I'm sure Orihime can just fix it up with her hocus pocus.

I'm sure you've got better things to do
The fact he was defeated by a shikai is totally irrelevant. It was the nature of the game itself that made the difference. He chose black....he was covered in black...that black targetted his hollow hole...did a MASSIVE amount of damage and as such....he died.
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Old 2010-08-16, 19:00   Link #87
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Originally Posted by MihawkXGP View Post
The fact he was defeated by a shikai is totally irrelevant. It was the nature of the game itself that made the difference. He chose black....he was covered in black...that black targetted his hollow hole...did a MASSIVE amount of damage and as such....he died.
Yup that pretty much says the whole story there was just many problems with Tite's thinking
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Old 2010-08-16, 19:44   Link #88
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Love and Rose got roughed up, but they're definitely still able to fight on if need be.

The only real loss on the good guys side so far is Ukitake. Sorry if if that offends any Rangiku or Momo fans. But who knows. The good guys might be in for another loss pretty soon when you consider who's finally stepping up to the plate.
Well, I wouldn't really count Ukitake yet as a loss. I'm mean he definitely has a serious injury but nothing immediately fatal by Bleach standards (at least for the good guys). I'd lump him in with the same category as all the captains that were downed by Aizen: temporarily KO'd.

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The fact he was defeated by a shikai is totally irrelevant. It was the nature of the game itself that made the difference. He chose black....he was covered in black...that black targetted his hollow hole...did a MASSIVE amount of damage and as such....he died.
Totally agree. The whole "OMG, such-n-such character got taken out by a shikai!!!11!! lol lame!" reasoning never held water. I mean people do realize that Kyouka Suigetsu is just a shikai right? and it's probably the singularly most powerful ability in the series that was used to drop several captains.
Shikai can be incredibly powerful--sometimes surpassing banaki ability of other characters. Even if it's not quite on Kyouka Suigetsu's level, Shunsui's is up there in terms of cheapness power. Not all shikai are borderline useless like Ichigo's and Renji's.
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Old 2010-08-16, 19:47   Link #89
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You've got some spoilers there Sabaku Kyu.
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Old 2010-08-16, 19:54   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Totally agree. The whole "OMG, such-n-such character got taken out by a shikai!!!11!! lol lame!" reasoning never held water. I mean people do realize that Kyouka Suigetsu is just a shikai right? and it's probably the singularly most powerful ability in the series that was used to drop several captains. Or that Ryuukin Jaka is just a shikai...

Shikai can be incredibly powerful--sometimes surpassing banaki ability of other characters. Even if it's not quite on Kyouka Suigetsu's level, Shunsui's is up there up there in terms of cheapness power. Not all shikai are borderline useless like Ichigo's and Renji's.
See that's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I read OP, Bleach and Naruto. And by far the one that has been the most disappointing was Bleach. It's not -really- about whether the shikai is overpowered or not, it's about the nonsensical power levels and the absolute annihilation of suspense. No one dies. There is no meaning, no backbone to the story. You can defend the shikai all you want, but it still meant that if Espada1 somehow got the upperhand, Shunsui still had a bankai to show off. And that would clearly have been end game, seeing as Ulquiorra explicitly stated he was the only one able to transform twice. OP has a -great- storyline, Naruto has a storyline. Bleach? Ugh. Don't get me started on the power-ups and power levels that hardly ever make sense. Bleach had potential and it was squandered.

e.g. Love and Rose were going down, they knew they couldn't handle Stark on their own. And yet? Yet they never went bankai. The -only- guy that did go Bankai literally disappeared never to be heard of again.

It's not about the shikai. It's about the story. The Espada had no presence on the battlefield. NOTHING. I guess I probably shouldn't be surprised in a manga/anime like Bleach. It -is- a whole lot of nothing.

Last edited by Frenchie; 2010-08-16 at 21:11.
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:26   Link #91
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Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
\ You can defend the shikai all you want, but it still meant that if Espada1 somehow got the upperhand, Shunsui still had a bankai to show off. And that would clearly have been end game, seeing as Ulquiorra explicitly stated he was the only one able to transform twice. OP has a -great- storyline, Naruto has a storyline. Bleach? Ugh. Don't get me started on the power-ups and power levels that hardly ever make sense. Bleach had potential and it was squandered.
Never defended the storyline. I called out Shunsui's shikai for what is: cheap and almost unbelievably convenient.

The Espada are wasted, underused characters. They just aren't actually weak. Fighting-wise their abilities have been impressive, and I think it's a little unfair when their strength gets based purely on the body-count. Stark in particular gets the short of the stick because of Shunsui killed him in a short amount of time without bankai. Stark was handling two captains and later two vizard captains easily. Yeah, Shunsui could've gone bankai but he used opportunity and strategy instead

You may still not agree but I think it's like judging the Gotei 13 captains based on their ability to kill a few teenagers in SS. That wasn't going to happen under any circumstances.

Unfortunately, It's doubtful the Espada get to redeem themselves against new set of powerful enemies in the next arc

P.S. Kindly edit out spoilers from my quote if you could please :P My fault.
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:58   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Never defended the storyline. I called out Shunsui's shikai for what is: cheap and almost unbelievably convenient.

The Espada are wasted, underused characters. They just aren't actually weak. Fighting-wise their abilities have been impressive, and I think it's a little unfair when their strength gets based purely on the body-count. Stark in particular gets the short of the stick because of Shunsui killed him in a short amount of time without bankai. Stark was handling two captains and later two vizard captains easily. Yeah, Shunsui could've gone bankai but he used opportunity and strategy instead

You may still not agree but I think it's like judging the Gotei 13 captains based on their ability to kill a few teenagers in SS. That wasn't going to happen under any circumstances.

Unfortunately, It's doubtful the Espada get to redeem themselves against new set of powerful enemies in the next arc

P.S. Kindly edit out spoilers from my quote if you could please :P My fault.
Don't ever think about Aizen after all his shikai was unbelievably convenient. And the Espada really have proven powerful, but in the wrong manor after all Ulquirra never revealed his second form to Aizen that could have made a huge difference.

Oh and you have to edit out your own spoilers
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Old 2010-08-16, 21:13   Link #93
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
Don't ever think about Aizen after all his shikai was unbelievably convenient. And the Espada really have proven powerful, but in the wrong manor after all Ulquirra never revealed his second form to Aizen that could have made a huge difference.

Oh and you have to edit out your own spoilers
You don't understand. We both quoted him, so the spoilers are also in our posts. I edited mine, you got to edit yours now.
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Old 2010-08-17, 01:42   Link #94
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I'd lump him in with the same category as all the captains that were downed by Aizen: temporarily KO'd.
I was kind of hoping that "loss" and "temporarily KO'd" would be interpreted to mean the same thing in that post. Guess I was wrong. In either case, I agree.
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Old 2010-08-17, 04:59   Link #95
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I totally disagree with you saying they struggled. Halibel never showed a single sign of deress. She was handling Hitsuguya like Aizen handled her. And then when it was three on one she still never got hit. She just couldn't go on the offensive because it was three on one. And Stark never ha a moments trouble with Rose and Love. He was owning two captain level vaizards. And he never seemed in doubt until one of the most powerful good guys came back into play. I also don't understand what you mean by your observations. That's how it's supposed to be isn't it?
Sorry about the delay in response. I've been running around all about the places.

I was talking about the kind of observation we needed to make to form our own conclusion about the power difference because Kubo is so reluctant (more like, incapable) to clearly point it out. For example, when Ulqui was shooting his ceros, the effort was almost a ritual to effect a cero. Stark shot those cero with ultimate ease and with infinite frequencies. In this observation Stark is obviously leagues above Ulqui.

I agree Stark defeated two Captain class Vaizard and it was impressive, but let's not forget that Ulqui completely dominated Ichigo in his vaizard form who is a captain class in his own right. At the time it didn't seem the outcome was going to be any different if there were 10 Ichigo fought Ulqui. At no point did it seem like Ulqui was overpowered. So why should it be any different for Stark in a fight against a few Vaizards? He is supposedly stronger than Ulqui, isn't he? Stark's victory over the two Vaizard class also came after he made his adjustment with those wolf thingies. Love and Rose were visibly making Stark uncomfortable until then. The reason Shunshui was able to sneak in a stab in Stark's back because he was so focused on those two to notice Shunshui's presence. What does it say about Stark's ability and/or his ranking?

As for Halibel, she has been completely dominated physically and mentally against a much inexperienced captain like Hitsugaya. How did she earn her ranking? In fact, does the ranking even mean anything?

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Well despite plot reasons and Uliqu being an opponent of Ichigo (which major opponent of Ichigo didnt seem uber at first?) if you want to put some sense in the varying demonstations of power with top 4 espada - maybe its because of setting?

Hollow powers get a boost in HM right? Consider the 11 sec time limit for Ichigos mask in the real world, being amped to a whole battle length and regenerating after being cracked/shattered.

I mean anyone wonder why when Uliqu R1 first transformed Ichigo felt as if he was being rained down by Uliqu' reaitsu...? When Espada 1-3 released none fo the captains standing before them even so much as flinched?

What could this mean? HM may have boosted Uliqu powers from at least 20% or higher? Ichigo may also simply be not as experienced or trained to have the type of mindset the other captains had when facing their Espada opponents.

Whos to say Uliq R1 wouldnt have struggled if he indeed was fighting in FKT with the other Espada. From Ichigo's eyes all his opponents seem uber strong...and hence the readers as well...

Just a possibility
This is a much better take to make sense of the entire fiasco and I somewhat agree, but as I've pointed out in my reply to Mr. Amazing, the observation were needed to be made on our own without any help from the storyteller to form any conclusion about the muddled power ranking. It's like a open ending many shows do which relies on the audience to form their own conclusion about certain things. I don't think Kubo, however, has done this intentionally. He is truly just bad at writing a sustaining story, especially, considering Bleach has been stretched out to its limit. Did you know one of Kubo's work at the beginning of his career as a manga writer was rejected by a publishing company because they thought Kubo wasn't a good storyteller? True story.

About the power-boost thing and the restrictions that are observed in the Karakura town, I believe it goes for both sides, the bad guys and the good. I think pettanko taicho, Soi Fon, briefly touches on the limiter that is automatically imposed on SS member when they cross the gate to come into the physical world like Karakura town.
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Old 2010-08-17, 05:18   Link #96
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Ulqui completely dominated Ichigo in his vaizard form who is a captain class in his own right. At the time it didn't seem the outcome was going to be any different if there were 10 Ichigo fought Ulqui.
Well, despite being the main character and everyone banking on him to save the world from time to time, Ichigo is relatively weak; if he was up against Stark or Shunsui, he'd definitely get at least as owned as he got from Ulqi...I mean, if he got trouble dodging a single cero, how about 1k cero from the get-go? Likewise, I doubt he'd be able to make out Shunsui's powers in time to save himself, what with all the blackness and Ichigo being clad in black
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Old 2010-08-17, 10:52   Link #97
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Sorry about the delay in response. I've been running around all about the places.

I was talking about the kind of observation we needed to make to form our own conclusion about the power difference because Kubo is so reluctant (more like, incapable) to clearly point it out. For example, when Ulqui was shooting his ceros, the effort was almost a ritual to effect a cero. Stark shot those cero with ultimate ease and with infinite frequencies. In this observation Stark is obviously leagues above Ulqui.

I agree Stark defeated two Captain class Vaizard and it was impressive, but let's not forget that Ulqui completely dominated Ichigo in his vaizard form who is a captain class in his own right. At the time it didn't seem the outcome was going to be any different if there were 10 Ichigo fought Ulqui. At no point did it seem like Ulqui was overpowered. So why should it be any different for Stark in a fight against a few Vaizards? He is supposedly stronger than Ulqui, isn't he? Stark's victory over the two Vaizard class also came after he made his adjustment with those wolf thingies. Love and Rose were visibly making Stark uncomfortable until then. The reason Shunshui was able to sneak in a stab in Stark's back because he was so focused on those two to notice Shunshui's presence. What does it say about Stark's ability and/or his ranking?

As for Halibel, she has been completely dominated physically and mentally against a much inexperienced captain like Hitsugaya. How did she earn her ranking? In fact, does the ranking even mean anything?

Shunsui is one of the oldest captains in SS. His experience (and control of his skills) is lightyears ahead of Ichigo, so of course Ichigo isn't going to have a cake walk versus, well ANYBODY. Ichigo never fights with strategy,while Shunsui's shikai is all about strategy and field manipulation. This is why Ulquiora seems so much more powerful than the Espada ranked above him. Espada 3-1 fought opponents who used strategy (you called Hitsuguya inexperienced and your right, but he is also a child prodogy, not just in his abilities but in his brians as well) instead of our heavy headed hero who spends fight after fight throwing around as many getsuga tenshos he can muster. And I have to say this again, Halibel was never dominated in this anime, she got frozen, and was unharmed once released. She had been frozen before and after that point and broke out completely on her own, so I have every reason to believe she would have eventually escaped without the help of WW.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:22   Link #98
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Shunsui is one of the oldest captains in SS. His experience (and control of his skills) is lightyears ahead of Ichigo, so of course Ichigo isn't going to have a cake walk versus, well ANYBODY. Ichigo never fights with strategy,while Shunsui's shikai is all about strategy and field manipulation. This is why Ulquiora seems so much more powerful than the Espada ranked above him. Espada 3-1 fought opponents who used strategy (you called Hitsuguya inexperienced and your right, but he is also a child prodogy, not just in his abilities but in his brians as well) instead of our heavy headed hero who spends fight after fight throwing around as many getsuga tenshos he can muster.
I disagree. Ulquiorra seemed like he dominated Ichigo because he was superior to him in every aspect. He was so much stronger that the situation quite literally felt hopeless no matter how good of a strategist Ichigo was since he lacked both the physical prowess or a hax ability to pull off a legit win. Against a Vizard who's bankai specializes in speed, Ulquiorra proved even faster than that and he proved stronger (in just his first released state alone). I mean think about that for a second. Physically, Ichigo is a captain class fighter. His basic speed and usage with shunpo is captain class and is enough to keep up with one of the fastest captains in the Gotei 13 (Byakuya). Plus, he has a bankai that is supposed to greatly enhance his captain class speed even further. Then on top of that, he can go Vizard, which is suppose to augment this speed boost even more. And Ulquiorra was able to top all of that by releasing.

So abilities aside, one would think that Espada's 3-1 would be even faster and stronger than Ulquiorra given their rankings. But there really weren't too many obvious moments in these battles where one felt like the Espada completely dominated in this regard -- even after they all released. It's only when their own unique abilities were brought forth that the tides of battle began to change and the outcomes became decided. For instance, Barry as a fighter never felt overwhelmingly faster than Soifon (or even Omaeda for that matter). He just had a really cheap ability that made him dangerous. In a straight sword fight, Hitsugaya and Halibel could've went on for days since neither one seemed to dominate above the other in either strength or speed. Same goes for Shunsui and Stark. Now if the Espada's fighting capabilities accurately complimented their respective rankings, then all 3 of the top Espada should've been virtually untouchable to almost every captain there.

In the end, this is why Espada's 3, 2, & 1 felt so underwhelming in comparison to Ulquiorra IMO. They felt lacking in shear physical prowess and basic fighting capabilities in comparison to #4. And all the battles came down to who had the better ability and who could outsmart the other while utilizing said abilities.

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Old 2010-08-17, 13:24   Link #99
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I disagree. Ulquiorra seemed like he dominated Ichigo because he was superior to him in every aspect. He was so much stronger that the situation quite literally felt hopeless no matter how good of a strategist Ichigo was since he lacked both the physical prowess or a hax ability to pull off a legit win. Against a Vizard who's bankai specializes in speed, Ulquiorra proved even faster than that and he proved stronger (in just his first released state alone). I mean think about that for a second. Physically, Ichigo is a captain class fighter. His basic speed and usage with shunpo is captain class and is enough to keep up with one of the fastest captains in the Gotei 13 (Byakuya). Plus, he has a bankai that is supposed to greatly enhance his captain class speed even further. Then on top of that, he can go Vizard, which is suppose to augment this speed boost even more. And Ulquiorra was able to top all of that by releasing.

So abilities aside, one would think that Espada's 3-1 would be even faster and stronger than Ulquiorra given their rankings. But there really weren't too many obvious moments in these battles where one felt like the Espada completely dominated in this regard -- even after they all released. It's only when their own unique abilities were brought forth that the tides of battle began to change and the outcomes became decided. For instance, Barry as a fighter never felt overwhelmingly faster than Soifon (or even Omaeda for that matter). He just had a really cheap ability that made him dangerous. In a straight sword fight, Hitsugaya and Halibel could've went on for days since neither one seemed to dominate above the other in either strength or speed. Same goes for Shunsui and Stark. Now if the Espada's fighting capabilities accurately complimented their respective rankings, then all 3 of the top Espada should've been virtually untouchable to almost every captain there.

In the end, this is why Espada's 3, 2, & 1 felt so underwhelming in comparison to Ulquiorra IMO. They felt lacking in shear physical prowess and basic fighting capabilities in comparison to #4. And all the battles came down to who had the better ability and who could outsmart the other while utilizing said abilities.
Yeah Ichigo is fast, and his bankai makes him faster, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a power character. Shunsui's games, and Hitsuguya's freezing tactics where able to put opponents off base. Ulquiorra never had that problem, because he faced Ichigo, and there for was able to defeat him even in Vizard form (which makes him more powerful). I think the big problem hear is that you guys don't realize that the main character gets, for want of a better word, the coolest fights. It has to be a bang out, drag out near death finish.

And also, Aizen realizes that Ichigo isn't at the same level as the Captains, Ulquiorra says 'he (AIzen) left us weaklings here to take care of you' doesn't he?

Last edited by Mr.Amazing; 2010-08-17 at 13:26. Reason: more
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Old 2010-08-17, 14:24   Link #100
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Yeah Ichigo is fast, and his bankai makes him faster, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a power character. Shunsui's games, and Hitsuguya's freezing tactics where able to put opponents off base. Ulquiorra never had that problem, because he faced Ichigo, and there for was able to defeat him even in Vizard form (which makes him more powerful).
I'm not sure you're understanding my main point here. In terms of speed and strength the Espada should've been much more capable than what we were shown -- period. <--- That's the main point. If clever tactics, abilities, and strategy were to be used on the captains behalf, it should've been used more to give them a fighting chance against this. We should've seen Espada 1, 2, & 3 completely dominate their opponents with the bare essentials while the fights were still mostly 1-on-1 straight sword duels. So the mere fact that the captains were able to match the top 3 espada's released strength and speed implies either the top 3 espada are much slower and physically weaker than Ulquiorra, or Hitsugaya, Soifon, and Shunsui are all physically faster and stronger than a Bankai'd Vizard Ichigo. Needless to say, I'm not buying it.

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I think the big problem hear is that you guys don't realize that the main character gets, for want of a better word, the coolest fights. It has to be a bang out, drag out near death finish.
I realize that may have been Kubo's intention. But unfortunately, he failed to set up the plot or the fights in such a way where the main character could have such a battle without creating too much contradiction in the process.

Using clever strategies and wits is great. I'm all for it. In fact it would've been awesome to see some of those abilities, strategies, and wits used to level the playing field against opponents who for all intents and purposes should've been vastly physically superior to the captains. But instead, a lot of the strategies and wits were used to support battles based mostly around abilities and techniques instead.

I think Kubo begins to use a decent example of how I would've liked the battles with the Espada to play out later on, but for the sake of spoilers, I can't go into specifics.

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And also, Aizen realizes that Ichigo isn't at the same level as the Captains, Ulquiorra says 'he (AIzen) left us weaklings here to take care of you' doesn't he?
It's true that Ichigo may not be captain level yet. But it's not because of his strength, speed, or spiritual energy. It's for pretty much everything else -- (intelligence, tactics/strategy, maturity, experience, control, etc.) Also Ulquiorra's statement makes the disparity between his own strength and the other 3 Espada feel all the more greater -- which makes their performance all the more underwhelming.

Last edited by sayde; 2010-08-17 at 14:42.
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