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Old 2010-12-20, 04:32   Link #2021
Kirroha
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Don't just assume I haven't. The thing is just that I've always wanted to believe in the theory that Bern was just playing the bad guy so that nobody has to blame each other anymore. This was actually what allowed Battler to shift the villain focus from Beato to Bern in Ep5, which allowed him to find out more about Beato's heart. After all, this also fits into Higurashi's morals and line of thought. So when Ep7 showed all that, I accepted it easily.
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:42   Link #2022
Vampe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Don't just assume I haven't. The thing is just that I've always wanted to believe in the theory that Bern was just playing the bad guy so that nobody has to blame each other anymore. This was actually what allowed Battler to shift the villain focus from Beato to Bern in Ep5, which allowed him to find out more about Beato's heart. After all, this also fits into Higurashi's morals and line of thought. So when Ep7 showed all that, I accepted it easily.
i see :P well i didnt think that far back, so when bern started acting all kind and so i got suspisios to what she was ploting. Btw didnt you learn anything from ep.3? don't take witches acting kind as a prof that they are good :P
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:44   Link #2023
Kirroha
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As I've said, stop assuming things about me. What I've said has nothing to do with acting good.

There's still a chance that Bern is playing the bad guy for good intentions.

After all, Beato in Ep3 as you said was playing the good guy for bad intentions, wasn't she?
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:47   Link #2024
Vampe
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
As I've said, stop assuming things about me. What I've said has nothing to do with acting good.

There's still a chance that Bern is playing the bad guy for good intentions.

After all, Beato in Ep3 as you said was playing the good guy for bad intentions, wasn't she?
i always assume things about others :P sometimes (read as rarly) im right, and sometimes (read as almost always) im wrong :P

guess you got a point there, but i still think Bern is evil, but thats mostly becouse she turned my fav character to minced meat, not just once but twice :P
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:48   Link #2025
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I would actually like to see another reverse again after all this, because right now, it's so hard to imagine Bernkastel as good and Beatrice as 'extremely evil.' It would troll me hard. EDIT: Personally, the reason I think Bern is evil is because she's portrayed that way. I mean, has she done anything physical but defeat a few concepts such as Beatrice and show a (probably very skewed) truth to people?
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:04   Link #2026
Kirroha
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Too bad the 'concept' has been built up to be extremely sympathetic, and thus painting Bern as an extreme bad guy. ^^;
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:07   Link #2027
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Besides, how could she do anything "physically" evil if she wanted to? She exists in a world of concepts and metaphors, and is unable to interact with the real world safe for imitating it in Gameboards or talking to kids in their sleep.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:15   Link #2028
Kirroha
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I still don't get why there are so many fanarts of Will and young Lion. Is it related to some kind of widespread theory?

As well as those baby Clairs that have been floating around.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:19   Link #2029
Revelation
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Yeah, that's entirely true ><. I don't see how any of the meta characters are good or evil except only through portrayal alone of different personified concepts. I guess that's what the meta world is though...

I'm guessing the fanart just comes from pedobear himself...

EDIT: Oh, those ones... I have no idea, but it would be nice to see them translated.
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Last edited by Revelation; 2010-12-20 at 05:33.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:21   Link #2030
Kirroha
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But they look like really cute fanart! D: Too bad I just can't understand all those comics.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:37   Link #2031
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Never mind, it clearly says that 'Anges scream drowned out Bernkastels red truth'. Hmm.. I wonder if Berns going to get cornered in the last game?... I think the most fitting ending would be if she gets caught by lamda
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:57   Link #2032
Kirroha
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I want her to get caught by llamas.
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Old 2010-12-20, 06:32   Link #2033
Revelation
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I want her to get caught by llamas.

That would make my day...
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Last edited by Revelation; 2010-12-20 at 06:43.
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Old 2010-12-20, 06:39   Link #2034
Kirroha
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That's just awesome, Golden Dream. I love you forever.
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Old 2010-12-20, 08:47   Link #2035
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I see some potential in this "cut-off Red sentence" theory, but I'd like to closely study the previous example of it. Which line exactly is it from here?: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth It seems that "Battler isn't Asumu's son" is stated multiple times at the end of EP4...were they all cut off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

Clair WANTS people to know the truth. Hypothetically speaking, what would Bern do if the truth of Rokkenjima was sunshine and roses plus an accidental explosion no one was at fault for? She'd probably lie and do this same scenario anyway.
Mayhaps she wants Battler to know the truth, and solve the mystery of her heart. But the actual text of the game is quite clear that she doesn't want the world at large to know the truth:

"Hey, are you watching? Clair? ......You wanted to hide this truth too, didn't you? For fun, you wrote several cat box tales, and planned to seal them in message bottles like the end of a mystery novel you loved. Then, you threw them into the sea. To save those who would suffer if they knew the truth.

You sealed everything in a cat box, and Eva provided the lock. And I've sliced that box open for you...!! Ahhahahahahahaha, all that effort you spent to hide it has gone to waste!! I've exposed all of the truth you hid with your death!!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
What you're saying is that Shannon could have gotten magically engaged to a unicorn or Kanon or Battler. Or had an affair with the man of 19 years ago. Or both.

There are no hintings of that, and I refuse to acknowledge that kind of bull crap. It is until it isn't.

How do you explain one billion yen? In any case, there's still the inheritance law to go through.

...There are no hintings otherwise, and, hey, I forgot Natsuhi. We do know this for absolute certainty because there are no records of Beato-1 or 2 existing, and Lion can be explained by being an orphan from the orphanage. Add to the fact that no one cares about Kinzo's reputation, or Lion's, because money talks. No hush money required.

There is no arrogance in saying what's impossible, only ignorance. And I pocess the right to accept and deny what I wish. I find it extremely arrogant that you say that kind of stuff can happen with any grounds. Which is Hypocrisy on my part.
As for Shannon, how about the hinting of:
1. We know Shannon plans to eventually leave the island.
2. We know Shannon is interested in love and romance.
3. We know that Shannon is very physically attractive.
4. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that Shannon would find a man after leaving the island who would propose to her, and whom she would fall in love with.

You seem to think that the Knox Decalogue of "It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented," or the similar Dine rule, applies to everything in all of Umineko. But it only applies to the crime of the mystery.

I assume you mean "without any grounds," right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
Wait, WHAT? They made the plan up on the spot. They still needed the phone lines to call the cousins out! And if they thought everyone was dead, why would they waste their time cutting lines when dead people can't call?
I'm saying they could have cut the external lines, not the internal lines (which we've seen since the first game is possible). And they would have done so before starting their killing spree, to prevent anyone from calling outside. Just one hypothetical way they could've gone about things among many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Dream View Post
I would actually like to see another reverse again after all this, because right now, it's so hard to imagine Bernkastel as good and Beatrice as 'extremely evil.' It would troll me hard. EDIT: Personally, the reason I think Bern is evil is because she's portrayed that way. I mean, has she done anything physical but defeat a few concepts such as Beatrice and show a (probably very skewed) truth to people?
Often times torturing people psychologically can be far more painful than torturing them physically.

Last edited by einhorn303; 2010-12-20 at 12:59. Reason: Fixed typo (cute/cut)
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Old 2010-12-20, 09:37   Link #2036
witchfan
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On the subject of Bern's "red truth"--

There are countless ways to interpret a sentence. There are even more ways to interpret a half-sentence. "This is all truth--" is a clever troll. It should completely trick people who still think the only way to solve the mystery is to rely on the red (the whole message of EP5-7 could be said to be the exact opposite: the red is often misleading, while there is a lot of truth behind the seemingly "fictional" scenarios).

I'm not saying the sentence is logically invalid. It is. But that doesn't mean it holds relevance to the mystery. The last three reds of EP6 tell us a lot (at least going by my own theory), but they are completely meaningless without context. What exactly does the sentence "This is all truth--" tell you? It could be referring to the guess Lion made about the number of couches Diana ruined, for all we know.

The relevant line here is the cheesiest in the whole saga. "Without love, it cannot be seen". No one on Rokkenjima is a bad person. That much is what Battler tells us in the end of the witches' tea party, and it's what we've been told since EP4. I think Bern's version of the story is very close to what happens in EP4. But the motives we're given? Kyrie and Rudolf killed their family for some money? Kyrie doesn't care about her own daughter? This kind of bullshit is just screaming "troll" to me.
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Old 2010-12-20, 09:41   Link #2037
Yopee
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
I see some potential in this "cut-off Red sentence" theory, but I'd like to closely study the previous example of it. Which line exactly is it from here?: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth It seems that "Battler isn't Asumu's son" is stated multiple times at the end of EP4...were they all cut off?
For your consideration:
Spoiler for Battler chokes:

Spoiler for Beato doesn't finish sentence:


Both from ep4.
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Old 2010-12-20, 10:23   Link #2038
einhorn303
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Originally Posted by Yopee View Post
For your consideration:
Spoiler for Battler chokes:

Spoiler for Beato doesn't finish sentence:


Both from ep4.
Although those red sentences were cut off, they don't seem to imply any other truth. The sentences don't imply a whole other truth that's opposite than what they mean to imply. It's pretty different than "This is all truth-...NOT," or whatever variant people think Bern is using. ("This is all truth-...fully amusing," "This is all truth-...within the context of this gameboard," "This is all truth-...except for the part about motives," etc).
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Old 2010-12-20, 11:09   Link #2039
Yopee
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Yea, Bern seemed to not be in pain or any sort of agony when saying her red. She just had that trollish smiley face when she was interrupted by Ange so I feel like rather than the red being completely false (like the two above from ep4), it's more of a context thing.

Well a better way to look at it is even if Bern's red was complete and finished as "This is all truth.", I'm sure I would still question it.

Too bad there was no gold truth in this episode. Would have liked to understand it a bit more.
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Old 2010-12-20, 11:22   Link #2040
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
Although those red sentences were cut off, they don't seem to imply any other truth. The sentences don't imply a whole other truth that's opposite than what they mean to imply. It's pretty different than "This is all truth-...NOT," or whatever variant people think Bern is using. ("This is all truth-...fully amusing," "This is all truth-...within the context of this gameboard," "This is all truth-...except for the part about motives," etc).
It would be more like "This is all truth-(less)"
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