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Old 2010-12-20, 11:28   Link #2041
einhorn303
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Originally Posted by Yopee View Post
Yea, Bern seemed to not be in pain or any sort of agony when saying her red. She just had that trollish smiley face when she was interrupted by Ange so I feel like rather than the red being completely false (like the two above from ep4), it's more of a context thing.

Well a better way to look at it is even if Bern's red was complete and finished as "This is all truth.", I'm sure I would still question it.

Too bad there was no gold truth in this episode. Would have liked to understand it a bit more.
My interpretation of the Gold Truth is that it's the "premise" of a game board, that only the game master can use. Basically like a premise or gimmick of a mystery novel, that the author shares with his readers.

That's why the Golden Truth is sometimes superior to the Red Truth. The author might say, "I know normally in mystery novels there can't be supernatural detective techniques (Knox's 2nd), but I wanted to write a mystery novel with a supernatural side, so in this book when the detective talks to ghosts those are real clues."

Because Battler learns how to use the Golden Truth right after talking about how "mysteries require trust between the author and readers." Then he "understands the real meaning of the gameboard," which is like understanding the true intentions of the tale's author. And the thing he uses to state is "Kinzo is dead in this game"...which, from the starting scenes of Episode 5, is outright stated as part of the premise that sets it apart from earlier games.

It's like Battler is saying, "I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!! I mean, come on, we know Kinzo is dead: that was set up right from the start and it's not a trick or anything, it's a premise of the whole tale that you need as the reader to solve it."

This is of course only my interpretation of what the Golden Truth means. You can decide if it sounds right to you, since there's still no explicit explanation of what the Golden Truth is. But I do really like the idea that the Golden Truth is the "premise" or "gimmick" of the tale's author, that the audience accepts with trust.

Which would mean that, if Bern's tea party is the real truth and not a game board, the Golden Truth can't be used.
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Old 2010-12-20, 11:31   Link #2042
witchfan
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
It would be more like "This is all truth-(less)"
Mathematically speaking, if we consider it an incomplete sentence, it holds no meaning whatsoever. Therefore whether it belongs to a certain set of "true" sentences is undecidable, and there is no logical contradiction in treating it as such--it's just devoid of content. But even if we consider it complete, I think my previous post properly addresses that.

(This also stands true for "This is all truth--except the motive" or what else we can conjure.)

P.S. My theory about the Golden Truth is that it really doesn't matter whatsoever for solving the mystery, and is better off ignored or treated as a "just don't argue with me" sort of thing.

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-20 at 11:49.
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Old 2010-12-20, 11:59   Link #2043
CrimsonMoonMist
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I always thought the golden truth was THE truth, no wordplay or any other things involved. In other words what witchfan said, an inarguable truth.
In that way, it can be both superior and inferior to the red
being that it's the unshrouded truth which also doesn't leave room for trickery.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:08   Link #2044
Yopee
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That would explain why Battler didn't need to provide anything to support the ep5 gold truth.

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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
My interpretation of the Gold Truth is that it's the "premise" of a game board, that only the game master can use. Basically like a premise or gimmick of a mystery novel, that the author shares with his readers.

But I do really like the idea that the Golden Truth is the "premise" or "gimmick" of the tale's author, that the audience accepts with trust.

Which would mean that, if Bern's tea party is the real truth and not a game board, the Golden Truth can't be used.
Oh that's an interesting way of looking at it. I'll keep that in mind. How would that apply to the other gold truth that was in ep6 though?

Erika did semi-disprove the candy inside teacup magic as sleight of hand with red but Beatrice says it is magic afterwards with gold.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:08   Link #2045
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The whole "half-truth" Bern theory relies heavily on chance and doesn't make much sense. The only reason we don't hear the rest of the sentence is because Ange (it WAS Ange, right?) screams out and drowns her out. If she hadn't screamed out there, or if she had screamed a moment sooner or a moment later, Bern would have finished her sentence.

It would be pretty awkward for her to start a sentence she has to finish and then finish it, fully revealing that she was making this game up. I think putting her entire troll on the line of "gee, I sure hope she chooses to scream at this very exact moment" isn't like Bern at all. And you can't cut a red truth off halfway through saying it if it changes it's meaning, so she HAD to finish the sentence.

Anyway, that being said, I don't want to accept that situation as truth either. Mostly because I don't want Yasu to meet that kind of end and I really didn't want Yasu to potentially kill everyone (if not stopped) and seeing "her" all emotionless and dead inside hurt me.

Unrelated to that, I feel sorry for George, but I can no longer root for him and Shannon. I'm mad at Battler for being a stupid kid, but all the same...
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:26   Link #2046
einhorn303
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Originally Posted by Yopee View Post
Oh that's an interesting way of looking at it. I'll keep that in mind. How would that apply to the other gold truth that was in ep6 though?

Erika did semi-disprove the candy inside teacup magic as sleight of hand with red but Beatrice says it is magic afterwards with gold.
I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but I think it might have something to do with "The author (Battler) wanted to write a tale in which Beatrice could still exist so he wrote a tale with the premise that small acts of magic are possible, even if they aren't used to commit the actual crime." Or something vaguely like that. I don't even remember all the relevant elements from ep6, so I can't put together a complete explanation.

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Originally Posted by MainCharacter View Post
Anyway, that being said, I don't want to accept that situation as truth either. Mostly because I don't want Yasu to meet that kind of end and I really didn't want Yasu to potentially kill everyone (if not stopped) and seeing "her" all emotionless and dead inside hurt me.
"I don't want to accept the truth because it's painful to me." wwww, When people act like this I can see the point in some of what Bernkastel says.

"How absurd, how foolish! Why can't humans control their own truth? They stupidly search for the truth like that's all that matters, and when they finally find it and can't stand it, they turn themselves into scrap meat!!"


If you want to look for the truth, look for the truth. If you want to exclusively look for a truth that pleases you and suits your own desires, well...I'm not sure I can recommend such a pursuit
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:28   Link #2047
Vylen
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Originally Posted by Yopee View Post
That would explain why Battler didn't need to provide anything to support the ep5 gold truth.



Oh that's an interesting way of looking at it. I'll keep that in mind. How would that apply to the other gold truth that was in ep6 though?

Erika did semi-disprove the candy inside teacup magic as sleight of hand with red but Beatrice says it is magic afterwards with gold.
Elder Beatrice to Chick Beatrice: You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

Maybe just as how Beatrice was created by a rule in the game, her ability to use "magic" - whatever the definition of that is - is also a rule of the game (and the magic must also be splendid ).

And well, Ryuukishi has apparently said anyone can use the golden truth as long as they know the rules of the game... so... Going backwards from a golden truth gives you a foundation of the game?
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:35   Link #2048
Cao Ni Ma
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I dont know how the japanese define magic, but we here in Spanish speaking countries define it as "meta physical belief which central point is the human capacity to alter reality without strictly causal means." or simply "to alter one truth with another truth" Example, the sun is a disk that dies and is reborn every day. This was the truth for a lot of people for a long time, it was the truth because they trusted it as such.

By this definition, she didn't lie when saying that gold truth.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:39   Link #2049
witchfan
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Originally Posted by MainCharacter View Post
The whole "half-truth" Bern theory relies heavily on chance and doesn't make much sense. The only reason we don't hear the rest of the sentence is because Ange (it WAS Ange, right?) screams out and drowns her out. If she hadn't screamed out there, or if she had screamed a moment sooner or a moment later, Bern would have finished her sentence.

It would be pretty awkward for her to start a sentence she has to finish and then finish it, fully revealing that she was making this game up. I think putting her entire troll on the line of "gee, I sure hope she chooses to scream at this very exact moment" isn't like Bern at all. And you can't cut a red truth off halfway through saying it if it changes it's meaning, so she HAD to finish the sentence.
This is why I don't think of it as a cut sentence either, by the way. Unless we go by "Bern can actually be kind sometimes".

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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
"I don't want to accept the truth because it's painful to me." wwww, When people act like this I can see the point in some of what Bernkastel says.
To the contrary, some people are way too eager to accept the truth as it is told. Were we ever straight out told something by a witch, without the intention of deceiving us, in this story? Are there not enough clues that, motive-wise, a Rokkenjima as Bern describes it is highly unlikely? I don't understand your insistence on blindly accepting what Bern of all people says. What makes you think no wordplay or similar trickery is involved? She even admits to not being interested in the truth at all.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:49   Link #2050
einhorn303
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Were we ever straight out told something by a witch, without the intention of deceiving us, in this story?
1. Beatrice's entire attempt to get Battler to realize his sin, throughout the many games.
2. Virgilia helping Battler in denying magic, with the Braunn-tube example.
3. Virgilia saying in red that Natsuhi isn't the culprit in episode 5.
4. Lambadelta explaining to Battler how logic errors work, and seriously warning him not to fall into one.
5. Countless other examples.

I think what you might prefer to say is, "Were we ever straight out told something by Bernkastel, without the intention of deceiving us, in this story?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Are there not enough clues that, motive-wise, a Rokkenjima as Bern describes it is highly unlikely?
"Kyrie and Rudolf did it for the the money" is a perfectly reasonable motive to me. Rudolf admits to himself that bankrupted people in financial swindles, and lots of them probably committed suicide, and he just laughed about it. Kyrie was willing to outright murder another woman to take her husband. I think there are plenty of clues that show them as able to carry out the murders.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:57   Link #2051
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
"I don't want to accept the truth because it's painful to me." wwww, When people act like this I can see the point in some of what Bernkastel says.

"How absurd, how foolish! Why can't humans control their own truth? They stupidly search for the truth like that's all that matters, and when they finally find it and can't stand it, they turn themselves into scrap meat!!"


If you want to look for the truth, look for the truth. If you want to exclusively look for a truth that pleases you and suits your own desires, well...I'm not sure I can recommend such a pursuit
Oh, get over yourself.

"I don't like it when people feel somewhat different than me, so I'll talk down to all who do because I feel it validates my feelings more."

See how easy it is to turn someone's words into a simplified sentence that makes them look worse than what they really said? Don't do it to me, and I won't do it to you.

All I was implying was that I'd rather that not be the truth. That doesn't make me any less willing to accept it as truth if it turns out it is. If you hadn't noticed, I spent the majority of that post giving my reasons why I can't accept most people's reasoning as to why it doesn't have to be truth. So, yeah.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:01   Link #2052
witchfan
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I did mean to type "Bern and Lambda" there, but somehow "witch" slipped past.

Quote:
"Kyrie and Rudolf did it for the the money" is a perfectly reasonable motive to me. Rudolf admits to himself that bankrupted people in financial swindles, and lots of them probably committed suicide, and he just laughed about it. Kyrie was willing to outright murder another woman to take her husband. I think there are plenty of clues that show them as able to carry out the murders.
They are able to carry out the murders. I think what Bern describes is a scenario very similar to what happened in EP4. But you are completely ignoring the message that, by now, is burned into our minds: there are no "bad people" in this story. This is a whydunit. Kyrie and Rudolf have been portrayed as greedy, perhaps even cold people, but they are most definitely not selfish as to care little for anyone but themselves. Kyrie, who has been characterized as deeply caring for her husband, is barely affected by his death. She doesn't care about her daughter and plans to abandon her. She easily murdered an entire family for what, 1 billion yen?

Is "Without love, it cannot be seen", a message which has been treated as a significant (if not the most significant) thematic element, a silly red herring? If so, there are serious issues with this mystery. I am sure it is to the contrary: you are the one blindly ignoring half the story. You hear a plausible theoretical solution to the how- and whodunit, and accept an extremely implausible whydunit without second thought.

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-20 at 13:13.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:02   Link #2053
Vampe
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Originally Posted by MainCharacter View Post
The whole "half-truth" Bern theory relies heavily on chance and doesn't make much sense. The only reason we don't hear the rest of the sentence is because Ange (it WAS Ange, right?) screams out and drowns her out. If she hadn't screamed out there, or if she had screamed a moment sooner or a moment later, Bern would have finished her sentence.

It would be pretty awkward for her to start a sentence she has to finish and then finish it, fully revealing that she was making this game up. I think putting her entire troll on the line of "gee, I sure hope she chooses to scream at this very exact moment" isn't like Bern at all. And you can't cut a red truth off halfway through saying it if it changes it's meaning, so she HAD to finish the sentence.
actualy, Bern is the witch who controls miracles, what if Ange screaming at that moment was a miracle created by Bern? that would be like her.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:06   Link #2054
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Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist View Post
I always thought the golden truth was THE truth, no wordplay or any other things involved. In other words what witchfan said, an inarguable truth.
In that way, it can be both superior and inferior to the red
being that it's the unshrouded truth which also doesn't leave room for trickery.
That doesn't really seem to be the case.
According to Will's use of "gold truth", it rather seems that a gold truth is a lie.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:07   Link #2055
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Originally Posted by Vampe View Post
actualy, Bern is the witch who controls miracles, what if Ange screaming at that moment was a miracle created by Bern? that would be like her.
I never found any hints or reasons to believe that Bern has the power to control Meta people's actions only because they would be "miracles". If that were the case, nothing would ever go wrong for her, which hasn't been the case so far.

I'd need some seriously sound reasoning if I am going to accept that Bern somehow knew Ange would scream or made Ange scream. It's just too much of a convenience simply for story's sake, which Umineko has been good at avoiding so far.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:09   Link #2056
Vampe
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Originally Posted by MainCharacter View Post
I never found any hints or reasons to believe that Bern has the power to control Meta people's actions only because they would be "miracles". If that were the case, nothing would ever go wrong for her, which hasn't been the case so far.

I'd need some seriously sound reasoning if I am going to accept that Bern somehow knew Ange would scream or made Ange scream. It's just too much of a convenience simply for story's sake, which Umineko has been good at avoiding so far.
well Ange was once Bern's pice, and Bern has had lots of chance to watch Ange and learn how she would react, so maybe Bern made a bet whit that in mind? does this sound convincing enough?
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:14   Link #2057
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well Ange was once Bern's pice, and Bern has had lots of chance to watch Ange and learn how she would react, so maybe Bern made a bet whit that in mind? does this sound convincing enough?
No, because it still relies on Ange specifically screaming loud enough to drown her out at that exact moment. Bern knew she would be upset, sure, but she would have no way of knowing what exact thing she would do at that exact time and it would be exactly loud enough to drown her out.

It's so exact it is ridiculous.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:17   Link #2058
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well Ange was once Bern's pice, and Bern has had lots of chance to watch Ange and learn how she would react, so maybe Bern made a bet whit that in mind? does this sound convincing enough?
That's just cheap - On 07th expansion's side.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:17   Link #2059
Vampe
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Originally Posted by MainCharacter View Post
No, because it still relies on Ange specifically screaming loud enough to drown her out at that exact moment. Bern knew she would be upset, sure, but she would have no way of knowing what exact thing she would do at that exact time and it would be exactly loud enough to drown her out.

It's so exact it is ridiculous.
as hard as it is to addmit (hate Bern and whant her to be the bad guy/girl for turning my fav char Ange into minced meat twice) you got a point :S
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:26   Link #2060
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I'm not done EP7 yet, so I haven't really read anything in this thread, but I had a question. Doing my own research is failing me because I don't quite get the scientific mumbo-jumbo explaining it, and the other half of my results are things like support groups...

Kinzo and Kuwadorian Beatrice had an incest baby. In most universes, that baby becomes Yasu. In extremely rare ones, it becomes Lion. However, even the well-groomed heir with the seemingly perfect life, Lion is very sensitive to the question of gender when Will brings it up...and we know that Yasu is described as being very frail and at one point 'always half-asleep'. Gender is obviously a key issue here that is being intentionally left vague (big props to W-H for the translation; English is not a friendly language for gender ambiguity, so that must have been a bitch of a hard thing to preserve). Since this is something that applies to both Yasu AND Lion, we know it's not some psychological gender identity crisis that came from the hard life in the orphanage, or anything that resulted from the fall off the cliff. This is something that is prevalent within both Yasu and Lion, meaning it's something that they had from birth.

So my question is...what are some of the common birth defects associated with incest, particularly parent-child incest, if there's any difference (it's a closer relation than, say, cousin inbreeding, so the chances for defects might be higher)? Would that be a good way to explain Yasu/Lion's small, frail body, Yasu's obvious mental disorder(s), and the issue over gender? I don't really know much about biology and anatomy, but I considered the idea that the baby was, for instance, born male, but due to birth defects had some testicular malfunction...that would mean a testosterone deficiency, which could explain some things. It seems like it'd be more likely for a male to be born with some defects that may make them consider themselves without gender, than for a female...if the child was born a female, they'd still have ovaries and all the other internal reproductive organs, and after a certain age, I think it'd be far more dangerous for a female to have never had a period than for a male who just...never hit puberty. It'd be more medically dangerous and harder to keep a secret from the family, I think...and it seems likely that it's not just 'no one else knows what gender I am', but 'I'm not quite sure what gender I am myself', which again would seem less likely if they had the internal organs of a female. So my personal bet is on a male whose development was stunted due to birth defects. I'm curious if I'm onto something or waaaaay off, here, with my utter lack of medical knowledge...and just generally want to know what some common birth defects of incest might be, and if we could use that to aid in explaining the whole situation behind Yasu/Lion - not just regarding gender, either, but also for all the craziness going on inside Yasu's head.
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