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Old 2010-12-20, 21:06   Link #2101
Kirroha
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Battler's crush on Shannon was talked about even way back in Ep1. When he saw George and Shannon together, he expresses a some jealousy and said that he used to have a little crush on her.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:06   Link #2102
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
There is no explicit detective mentioned in any of the games but Erika in EP5, we assume Battler is do to how the narrative is structured. He sees the corpse in EP1, right after he notices Maria staring at the stake in the head, he then proceeds to mention details about the corpse. (is someone else providing a narration here? Is Battler a credible witness?)

So it comes down to this, its a corpse or it isnt. If its a corpse then it identity is guaranteed do to the red. If it isn't a corpse then what is it? It can't be alive with a stake there, is it a doll? A facsimile or something?
Battler can be thought of as the Detective in the questions arcs because he doesn't seem to have a subjective viewpoint - i.e. he never sees magic or any crazy stuff (and he doesn't see Kinzo). Additionally, wasn't it mentioned in Ep7 that Clair was lucky that "he" didn't see the "body" in the the first games first twilight. This sort of implies that as a Detective, he would've noticed something was wrong....
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:10   Link #2103
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Dlanor confirms in red that Battler was the detective of the first four episodes.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:10   Link #2104
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Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
Battler can be thought of as the Detective in the questions arcs because he doesn't seem to have a subjective viewpoint - i.e. he never sees magic or any crazy stuff (and he doesn't see Kinzo). Additionally, wasn't it mentioned in Ep7 that Clair was lucky that "he" didn't see the "body" in the the first games first twilight. This sort of implies that as a Detective, he would've noticed something was wrong....
In Ep5, Battle was guaranteed in red to be the detective of the previous 4 games. However, that's not necessarily the same as the detective's authority. He definitely has an objective view point, but being able "spot clues without fail" is a superpower that I think only Erika had.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:11   Link #2105
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Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
Battler can be thought of as the Detective in the questions arcs because he doesn't seem to have a subjective viewpoint - i.e. he never sees magic or any crazy stuff (and he doesn't see Kinzo). Additionally, wasn't it mentioned in Ep7 that Clair was lucky that "he" didn't see the "body" in the the first games first twilight. This sort of implies that as a Detective, he would've noticed something was wrong....
Dont get me wrong, I do believe that Battler is a credible witness. So long as he hasn't surrendered or is declared incompetent.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:16   Link #2106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
There is no explicit detective mentioned in any of the games but Erika in EP5, we assume Battler is do to how the narrative is structured. He sees the corpse in EP1, right after he notices Maria staring at the stake in the head, he then proceeds to mention details about the corpse. (is someone else providing a narration here? Is Battler a credible witness?)

So it comes down to this, its a corpse or it isnt. If its a corpse then it identity is guaranteed do to the red. If it isn't a corpse then what is it? It can't be alive with a stake there, is it a doll? A facsimile or something?
Well, in EP1, the only corpses he actually looked at where of the people BUT Shannon, since she was hidden behind something, he didn't fully go back there and check her out and relied on Hideyoshi's observation instead of his own. We could also say that he didn't quite observe the corpses of everyone else as well as he could've. Even Kanon's corpse wasn't observed since he ran out of the boiler room because of that weird noise he heard, and after that, we hear from Nanjo that Kanon was dead. Corpses he could've looked at were everyone's but Shannon's and Kanon.

Kinzo's corpse is supposedly always burned, making facial recognition an impossibility, but his toes still remain. And only members of the Ushiromiya could know of him having 6 toes, so possibly, only them could "guarantee" his corpse.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:29   Link #2107
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Originally Posted by Nero Allelujah View Post
Well, in EP1, the only corpses he actually looked at where of the people BUT Shannon, since she was hidden behind something, he didn't fully go back there and check her out and relied on Hideyoshi's observation instead of his own. We could also say that he didn't quite observe the corpses of everyone else as well as he could've. Even Kanon's corpse wasn't observed since he ran out of the boiler room because of that weird noise he heard, and after that, we hear from Nanjo that Kanon was dead. Corpses he could've looked at were everyone's but Shannon's and Kanon.

Kinzo's corpse is supposedly always burned, making facial recognition an impossibility, but his toes still remain. And only members of the Ushiromiya could know of him having 6 toes, so possibly, only them could "guarantee" his corpse.
In addition to Shannon and Kanon, he didn't look at Eva and Hideyoshi's corpses in Ep1. But anyways, Kinzo is dead at the starting times for all games. It's guaranteed in red, and even if you call that wordplay, there's lots and lots of other evidence that he's already dead. You'd have to go back to theories that he's hiding under the bed.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:43   Link #2108
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Have you wondered why Battler couldn't simply say that "Kinzo is dead"?
Why that roundabout way? I mean... why he had to talk about "presenting a corpse", rather than talking about the fact of his death?
No because Dlanor wasn't asking him to say that Kinzo was dead. She already knew that for a long time. She mentions it herself to Battler and Virgilia after the study scene. She asked him for proof the corpse is his corpse.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In other words, the "Kinzo's corpse" is the lie. Battler understood that and made us of it for his own advantage.
Well supposing he did embellish anything it'd be about his guarantee not that the corpse is Kinzo's. But even if he couldn't guarantee it's Kinzo's corpse that doesn't mean it still isn't Kinzo's corpse.
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Old 2010-12-20, 23:27   Link #2109
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Battler might have been the detective in Episodes 1-4, but he didn't have the detective's authority. One possible proof of this is the 1st twilight in Episode 1. Natsuhi moved to block Battler's sight of the corpses, when Battler wanted to see them. If Battler had the detective's authority, if she tried to spread her arms to block his vision, she'd be compelled not to. Like what happened with the people trying to stop Erika in the 1st twilight of Episode 5.

Another two related questions are:

"Can the detective's authority have any meaning if Knox's Decalogue isn't in effect?"

"Was Knox's Decalogue in effect for Episodes 1-4?"
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Old 2010-12-20, 23:29   Link #2110
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
Battler might have been the detective in Episodes 1-4, but he didn't have the detective's authority.
Sure, but this doesn't mean that "everything Battler sees is fake", either. We've been through this a thousand times.
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Old 2010-12-20, 23:41   Link #2111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
Battler might have been the detective in Episodes 1-4, but he didn't have the detective's authority. One possible proof of this is the 1st twilight in Episode 1. Natsuhi moved to block Battler's sight of the corpses, when Battler wanted to see them. If Battler had the detective's authority, if she tried to spread her arms to block his vision, she'd be compelled not to. Like what happened with the people trying to stop Erika in the 1st twilight of Episode 5.

Another two related questions are:

"Can the detective's authority have any meaning if Knox's Decalogue isn't in effect?"

"Was Knox's Decalogue in effect for Episodes 1-4?"
Natsuhi tried to block his vision. He was able to move around her.
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Old 2010-12-20, 23:55   Link #2112
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Natsuhi tried to block his vision. He was able to move around her.
Yea.. something like that.

When everyone tried to stop Erika in Ep5, well, they tried - it was only until she invoked her authority were they made to stop.

So I think the pieces are allowed to try and get in the way of a person with Detective Authority, but it's of course futile until they invoke it.

IIRC, Natsuhi was really trying to stop all the cousins from looking at the bodies, but she's just one person and it was futile just by the nature of the situation.
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Old 2010-12-21, 00:26   Link #2113
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Interesting news about the EP7 red: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...07#post3400607 ("Bern might have been saying 'This is the truth...or at least, I'd like it to be'"). Who knows if the interview is genuine, though.

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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
One possible way of seeing it is: The mystery of Beatrice's heart and why she set up the roulette is the "main" mystery, the one where the "Without love, it cannot be seen" theme applies. That's the mystery that the gameboards are truly set up to solve.

The heart side seemed to feel going past that, into the Kyrie and Rudolf murders, wasn't necessary. They wanted to end it with Claire's funeral, with the mystery of Beatrice's heart finally solved. The part that lies beyond Claire's funeral is that which is, like Bernkastel said in the ????? of Episode 6, completely heartless. Going past that into the other mystery is an act of desecration on Bernkastel's part, spitting in the face of the game's themes.

Also, I'm not sure the "There's no bad people" idea is so absolute. Battler completely abandoned trying to preserve the innocence of his relatives early on.
It's not necessary to read past EP7's ????? to see that Battler does indeed believe there are no bad people. And "Without love, it cannot be seen" is also not mentioned just by Beatrice (for example, I believe it was the company president in EP4 that first mentioned it). EP5-6 strongly hint we shouldn't accept contrived solutions without "the heart", too. Even when they have nothing to do with Beatrice.

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Btw, I think you might be underestimating how much a billion yen is; it's a real shit-load of money. If Kyrie is in her 40's, it'd be enough to live the rest of her life without working and an annual stipend of $269,525 US dollars, an extremely luxurious lifestyle.
It's a large amount of money. But is it mind-blowing? After sharing the money with the siblings, she and Rudolf would still have more than enough to get the company back on its feet. Then they can expand their company and retire with a lucrative pension, just as she could've with 1 billion yen. It's not a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, like 10 tons of gold are; it's just a large amount of money. When she blows up the island, she also gives up the rest of the gold, which should at least be worth something in confidence, even if she believes it can't be converted (which is ridiculous; calculating Kyrie would know it can be converted after seeing the card, or hearing it from Krauss - even after Krauss died she could've asked Shannon or probably one of her associates).

Considering this, the only way to accept Kyrie and Rudolf can do what they did (it's not just them; all siblings seemed to have little regard for their family's lives), is to believe they are evil and stupid. They killed their family, risked their lives, and killed their chances of getting much more than 1 billion yen with those 10 tons of gold, for a card worth some money. How did Kyrie and Rudolf even know the explosives and card work? Why would they trust Shannon, who just appeared from nowhere? But they have 10 ton gold in front of their eyes, and they give it up!There are so many holes in this story I find it hard to believe anyone would consider it true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
There are also precedents in the game of first presenting people as nice and caring, and them revealing them to be completely cruel: Bernkastel, Beatrice in Episode 3. I think the previous games have enough hints to suggest the possibility that Kyrie's supposed empathy is just a mask of convenience. Like she says in this EP7 tea party, of course she *acted* nice in front of other people.
I'm sure Kyrie acted in front of everyone. I can almost say for a fact she is a cruel person. But evil, and stupid?

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-21 at 00:42.
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Old 2010-12-21, 00:47   Link #2114
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Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
IIRC, Natsuhi was really trying to stop all the cousins from looking at the bodies, but she's just one person and it was futile just by the nature of the situation.
ITYM "just two people"; Eva was also trying to stop the cousins. Perhaps also Hideyoshi.

Also, while $10M is quite a large on a personal scale, it's a small amount as far as businesses go. I think a typical budget for a TV anime is $100K per episode, so it might cover about 4 seasons at the quality of Umineko.
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Old 2010-12-21, 03:14   Link #2115
Kirroha
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By the way, was it explained what happened to the servant who was 'cursed by Beatrice-sama' and fell down the stairs?
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Old 2010-12-21, 03:33   Link #2116
Nero Allelujah
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By the way, was it explained what happened to the servant who was 'cursed by Beatrice-sama' and fell down the stairs?
It wasn't explained as in detail as the key disappearing from the key ring, but we could just safely assume that it was Shannon who pushed her down the stairs. Could've been the case if she didn't see anyone behind her or if it was a night shift.
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Old 2010-12-21, 03:36   Link #2117
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Won't put it past her to do it to Runon.

I lol'd when the fate of the shrine from Ep1 was explained.
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Old 2010-12-21, 06:42   Link #2118
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Won't put it past her to do it to Runon.

I lol'd when the fate of the shrine from Ep1 was explained.
Spoiler for Shrine:
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Old 2010-12-21, 06:54   Link #2119
Kirroha
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Yep. Looks like it was small bombs after all... (just didn't expect there to be 900 tons of them, but hey.)

I think Shannon probably smashed the mirror before doing all that to the shrine. XD
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Old 2010-12-21, 06:57   Link #2120
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Poor Battler... he'll forever be haunted by his small bombs theory.
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