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Old 2010-12-21, 16:25   Link #2141
Nero Allelujah
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And that chart still misses Virgilia (former Beatrice), Eva-Beatrice, and Ange-Beatrice
Well the chart addresses the main issue of Beatrice at hand. Virgilia would be another delusion of hers of the appearance of Kumasawa of a good witch.

Yasu could've believed that Eva was a total bitch, so made a witch form of hers in delusion. and Ange? Well, Maria probably told her of what she did, and she formed yet another delusion...This sounds like a plausible way to represent all Beatrices.
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:13   Link #2142
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So, given Yashkannontrice, how does that satisfy the red text that the culprit is not a servant? Yasu, Shannon, and Kanon are all servants, and of course witches don't exist.
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:17   Link #2143
AuraTwilight
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Because that rule exists to deny implicating people who are "above suspicion." A servant with no motive or discernable personality. Shannon and Kanon are very much suspicious.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. One could argue that they're not actually servants, but I don't like that argument, and have one better: Yasu isn't actually the culprit, and is just continuing the martyr game. What was the point of becoming Beatrice to take everyone's blame if she did it anyway?
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:25   Link #2144
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
So, given Yashkannontrice, how does that satisfy the red text that the culprit is not a servant? Yasu, Shannon, and Kanon are all servants, and of course witches don't exist.
Well, remember when Yasu said that she would quit being a servant after Battler returned? That's another possible explanation, but I don't really like that.

I still don't think Yasu has committed any murders, personally.
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:27   Link #2145
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Shannon was going to quit being a servant when Battler returned. That was her promise to Battler. And She keeps her promises.

If Ryukishi were to roll with Shannon/Yasu as the culprit. I think that's the excuse he'd use. I still like to think she's scapegoating for someone else though.

Edit: I just got ninja'd.
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:34   Link #2146
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
So, given Yashkannontrice, how does that satisfy the red text that the culprit is not a servant? Yasu, Shannon, and Kanon are all servants, and of course witches don't exist.
Here's the actual statement by Dine

11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

Most authors wont have a servant be the culprit under any circumstances, at most they'll play around it by making the culprit masquerade as one to sneak out of the crime scenes.

e- I dont think Shkanon is the culprit though so It doesn't matter if it plays out as an accomplice either willingly or unwittingly.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-12-21 at 17:46.
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Old 2010-12-21, 17:46   Link #2147
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I don't think you can say she's not a servant when she is clearly playing the role of a servant.
The actual statement from Van Dine's commandments doesn't actually matter. The red text is pretty clear.

I suppose Kinzo can be the culprit, but that is just super lame, saying it is all Kinzo's fault for banging his daughter and that everything was fated from there.

The next person I want to try making the culprit is Kyrie, but supposedly Rudolph and Kyrie don't have enough evidence to be the culprit. If there isn't enough evidence to convict them, I really don't see how you could blame George, Jessica, or Hideyoshi. That pretty much leaves Rosa and Eva, since red says Krauss and Natsuhi aren't the culprit.
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Old 2010-12-21, 18:14   Link #2148
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
I don't think you can say she's not a servant when she is clearly playing the role of a servant.
The actual statement from Van Dine's commandments doesn't actually matter. The red text is pretty clear.

"Playing a role" != "being"

EP7 showed quite clearly that Yasu is in fact the true Master, even from a legal standpoint. The gold is hers the headship is hers, she's just playing the part of the servant. Of course she actually was a servant in the beginning, but since November 29, 1984 she was no longer.
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Old 2010-12-21, 18:16   Link #2149
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Well... to me, at least, the problem is...
If you take the rules in their original meaning, okay, maybe it does work for this servant problem...
But then, the "no hard to understand scientific device" in the knox rules should work this way as well.
While a DID (or whatever, IF ShKannontrice is true, it is still not a DID, realistically) is not really a "scientific device", it still follows the same idea; it is something that needs an unusual lot of knowledge in one particular thing in order to be really understood (in brief.)...
(Knox 4 have always been annoying me because of this)

But if you don't care about the meaning of the rules and only care about how it is written in red, then Yasu cannot be the culprit anyway.

And it is not really "easy" to guess that Yasu/whatever is not a servant and was only a role with only eps 1-4.
It was said sometimes about Kanon and Shannon IIRC(the part about not being a servant, at least), but mainly as wild guesses or jokes.

Last edited by Axilios; 2010-12-21 at 18:48.
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Old 2010-12-21, 18:42   Link #2150
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
The next person I want to try making the culprit is Kyrie, but supposedly Rudolph and Kyrie don't have enough evidence to be the culprit. If there isn't enough evidence to convict them, I really don't see how you could blame George, Jessica, or Hideyoshi. That pretty much leaves Rosa and Eva, since red says Krauss and Natsuhi aren't the culprit.
Don't be so quick to judge who can and can't be the culprit based on the Tea Party.

The text in the story is more important than the red really. I've also never really seen any powerful hints for either Rosa or Kyrie. There are only really a couple statements I recall in the story that are worth mentioning.
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:00   Link #2151
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And that chart still misses Virgilia (former Beatrice), Eva-Beatrice, and Ange-Beatrice
The question of where Virgilia fits in all this has been bugging me. Let's assume that Beato's memory of her past in EP3 isn't a useless fabrication (which seems reasonable, since she never showed it to Battler). I can understand why Kumasawa might pretend to be a witch for her and show her "magic". What I don't get is why she would present herself as "Beatrice" when she presumably knew all about both Beatrice-2's mother and Kinzo's belief that Beatrice-2 was Beatrice-1's reincarnation.

I feel like there's an important part of the history of Beatrice that we don't really understand yet, and that's why some of these pieces aren't fitting together quite right.

(Also, why does little Beatrice-2 refer to Kinzo as "grandfather"?)
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:09   Link #2152
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(Also, why does little Beatrice-2 refer to Kinzo as "grandfather"?)
This question will probably forever be left unanswered. I really don't think it's Beatrice 2 though. Or that it's in Kuwadorian. Because the narration mentions a lot of servants being there.

Quote:
At that time, the high-pitched scream of a servant could be heard from inside the mansion.`

When I went to see what had happened,......I noticed that several of the servants had gathered, and were cleaning up the remains of the broken vase.
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:19   Link #2153
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The "memory" of Virgilia in the past was a dream... a dream of a delusion...

maybe we shouldn't think too hard about it... or we'll get a headache
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:23   Link #2154
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Really, that's kind of disappointing. I thought that was supposed to be an important hint to understand Beatrice, but there are too many things that do not fit with the truth to consider it a good hint.
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Old 2010-12-21, 19:30   Link #2155
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Well, I always thought that the dream was unusual... when I first saw it.

loli-Beatrice is living in a mansion with a number of servants and is even called Princess... and yet, she desires to be happy through the power of magic. Which, implies that she isn't happy despite her extravagant circumstances...

But, I can't make any interpretations of that at the moment.
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Old 2010-12-21, 20:49   Link #2156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Here's the actual statement by Dine

11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

Most authors wont have a servant be the culprit under any circumstances, at most they'll play around it by making the culprit masquerade as one to sneak out of the crime scenes.

e- I dont think Shkanon is the culprit though so It doesn't matter if it plays out as an accomplice either willingly or unwittingly.
There's nothing to indicate that any of Beato's stories follow Dine. The one time Will tried it against Bern, it did absolutely nothing. Even then, it was "the truth" he was fighting against, not Beato's game-board.
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Old 2010-12-21, 20:56   Link #2157
Cao Ni Ma
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And? There was no explicit evidence that a lot of the mystery genre taboos didn't apply to Beatrice's game either. A lot of them did anyways, like corpses being moved and the like. Just because they aren't confirmed doesn't mean thats whats happening in the background.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:00   Link #2158
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Devil's Proof! Devil's Proof! *covers ears with hands* lalalalalala
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:03   Link #2159
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Hey, I wanted to see that fragment where Bern said that Kinzo thought of Lion as another reincarnation of Beatrice... XD
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:13   Link #2160
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
And? There was no explicit evidence that a lot of the mystery genre taboos didn't apply to Beatrice's game either. A lot of them did anyways, like corpses being moved and the like. Just because they aren't confirmed doesn't mean thats whats happening in the background.
Starve while demanding the fair, and die.

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