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Old 2010-08-17, 14:49   Link #221
Klashikari
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I do not believe that myself either, but Episode 7 has a lot of possible explanations for a lot of things.
In fact, it doesn't really set things in stone, aside Rion's associated identities (although I'm still not convinced about Kanon thrown in the lot).

At least, the red herring is only based on the presentation, no "unecessary" red.
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Old 2010-08-17, 14:54   Link #222
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Well, Bern realized something about the red that many have not: I can be just as annoying as it is useful to confound the detective.

By providing him with an ordinary story, she's basically left every element or all elements completely open to interpretation or fabrication. There's no bedrock red on which any particular piece can be attacked. She's trusting the apparent coherency of the tale to avoid questions that might diminish it. I'm not sure she's fooling anyone, but at this point in Chiru I'm not sure she's supposed to, since we're obviously going to get the big finish in ep8... whatever that turns out to be.

It could be anything from "ep7 was completely wrong" to "ep7 was right, but I'm going to tell you the real reasons for the facts, whose interpretations were twisted around."
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:20   Link #223
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The Yasu business just makes me think the bearer of sin should be Natsuhi rather than Battler.

But one must bomb everyone to death when Battler came back?


Illogical.

THus something was probably wrong. Bern's interpretation was definitely missing something.
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:23   Link #224
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I think saying EP7 is wrong is naive thinking. R07 said himself that the answers would be contained in EP6 and EP7. So, this is it.

Now, whether we can take things at face value is another thing. During EP6, R07 was never direct about anything. Some things may have been clear, but they were still up to interpretation, whereas, in EP7, other than Lyon's sex, almost everything was thrown into your face. Especially during the Tea Party, in which we're told that's the plain truth and there's even Red for that. Of course, once again, what you make out of that is up to you.

Personally, I don't find too many inconsistencies between EP7 and past episodes. In fact, EP7 ties many things very, very well. It even makes the whole Shkanontrice deal somewhat more palatable. Sure, the whole deal about personalities getting killed acknowledged by the Red is complete rubbish. Hopefully, there'll be a better explanation for that. If not, well, too bad.
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:31   Link #225
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Personally, I don't find too many inconsistencies between EP7 and past episodes. In fact, EP7 ties many things very, very well. It even makes the whole Shkanontrice deal somewhat more palatable. Sure, the whole deal about personalities getting killed acknowledged by the Red is complete rubbish. Hopefully, there'll be a better explanation for that. If not, well, too bad.
Have you actually read that part? It's maudlin crap. For Chrissakes, the way the whole epitaph and Kinzo thing plays out is downright laughable ("WOOP TIME TO DIE HERE I GO!"), and the Tea Party has plot holes big enough to dock a submarine in ("Here's everything you might need to murder each other and cause a disaster. Don't murder each other and cause a disaster!"). Ryukishi may not write fantastic romances, but he knows at least enough about evoking emotion to steer clear of unintentional melodrama.
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:48   Link #226
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Ryukishi may not write fantastic romances, but he knows at least enough about evoking emotion to steer clear of unintentional melodrama.
Thats EXACTLY what he wants you to think! hahahaha.wav

*cough**splutter* Ahem...

From what I've seen so far from you lot on here it seems all rather rushed a bit from Bern. It all works at first glance but doesn't hold up in the light of day.

A quick wondering from myself though. Could we have a situation where Bern is lulling the readers and I assume Battler into a trap?

The story seems to have enough holes in it to be picked apart but could it be leading to a bigger more soul destroying reveal?

Kyrie and Rudolf being heartless murderers is pretty damning of course but coming from Bern its effect is dulled somewhat, if battler was lead into confirming it wouldn't it be Bern's Masterpiece? Ange being told Mum and dad are heartless murderers by trollkastel is one thing, but by her beloved Onii-chan?
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:55   Link #227
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Bern's obviously playing an angle. Her behavior around Will is clearly off (and it's obvious she knows we'll notice). If she has a purpose other than what she does to Ange in ep7, I can't say. If she has any goal with respect to Battler, I also can't say, as he's seemingly not even in it much. Whether Battler is watching, or supposed to be watching, is unclear; though if the tail end of the story is even remotely accurate, he seems to have been aware of it.
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:56   Link #228
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Personally, I don't find too many inconsistencies between EP7 and past episodes. In fact, EP7 ties many things very, very well. It even makes the whole Shkanontrice deal somewhat more palatable.
Yes, I agree with this. After I read it, I felt completely satisfied, and this is as someone who absolutely loathed the idea of Shkanontrice going in.

In fact, if Leon had lived somehow, the game could have ended with this episode and felt perfectly complete.
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Old 2010-08-17, 15:59   Link #229
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Bern's obviously playing an angle. Her behavior around Will is clearly off (and it's obvious she knows we'll notice).
Of course it is. She brought him there to kill what was left of Beatrice's illusion. Will is a good guy, so he's not going to do anything that a cackling villain is going to tell him to do. That's what allows her to pull the guts from Claire and watch exactly how things played out.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:03   Link #230
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I'm sure he's seen what happened, Bern has just portrayed his Dad and Kyrie as murderers and child killers of the worst kind. They may not see eye to eye constantly but he has enough affection for them to care for them thats clear throughout the episodes.

She's definately up to something and if the "no happy ending" bit is true the reveal isn't going to be all flowers and sunshine.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:08   Link #231
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I have the theory that she is still allied with Battler, and they are now taking revenge for Beatrice ' tsun and suddenly switch to dere' - tactic, but thats probably just my imagination...
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:12   Link #232
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I think the red probably just means we'll see a return of the gold text. I'm not really sure what the point of saying there will be no happy ending in red since it's really somewhat subjective in what someone believes is a happy ending in the first place. This kind of reminds me of all the back-and-forth between Maria and Ange in EP4 about Rosa and how it's possible to put the situation under both a negative and positive light.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:13   Link #233
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Have you actually read that part? It's maudlin crap. For Chrissakes, the way the whole epitaph and Kinzo thing plays out is downright laughable ("WOOP TIME TO DIE HERE I GO!"), and the Tea Party has plot holes big enough to dock a submarine in ("Here's everything you might need to murder each other and cause a disaster. Don't murder each other and cause a disaster!"). Ryukishi may not write fantastic romances, but he knows at least enough about evoking emotion to steer clear of unintentional melodrama.
Of course, as I said before, several things are there for you to make them out. Kinzo dying after Yasu solved the Epitaph? That doesn't necessarily mean he died in that instant, but you can take it as him dying shortly afterwards. It's a play, after all.

As for the Tea Party, I don't think it has too many plot-holes. The bomb switch being there makes sense to me. Now, why would Kinzo set up such a thing is another matter, but thinking too much about it will only give me a headache. The guns being there also make sense, since Beatrice said she was ready to murder them all, had they not solved the Epitaph. Of course, whether mere greed and opportunism was the real reason behind those events is up to interpretation. Because of the Red, we know that what happened in that room is the real thing. However, the reason behind it is an entirely different matter.

Either way, anyone has any idea what injury Yasu had that made him/her think s(he)'s unable to be loved, thus becoming furniture?
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:16   Link #234
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Yes, I agree with this. After I read it, I felt completely satisfied, and this is as someone who absolutely loathed the idea of Shkanontrice going in.

In fact, if Leon had lived somehow, the game could have ended with this episode and felt perfectly complete.
Is that sarcasm? Regardless of whether Shkanon is true or false, Bern's murder solution didn't even necessitate it one way or another. In fact, the way Bernkastel has presented it, the entire story does not require Shkanon be determined with any veracity whatsoever. It can be true, it can be false, it doesn't even matter. That alone should be a giant red flag to Shkanon supporters and deniers alike; if the very same episode goes to such incredible lengths to discuss this strange personage, why doesn't the solution really even need him/her to exist?

Heck, take out "Beatrice" and the Tea Party could just as well play out the same way. Epitaph solved, adults flip out, Kyrie and Rudolf go gangsta on everybody. What part of this required Shkanon? What part of this was caused by Battler's sin? There is a clear and gaping divide between this supposed "answer," the answers Will gives in the main story, and the setup leading up to the end of the main story.

What's going on here? Things are not reconciled, not even slightly.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:23   Link #235
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Also I feel that Kanon doesn't really fit in into the whole Yasu thing. Just my opinion though. Also "yasu" itself is a kinda a joke.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:25   Link #236
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Is that sarcasm? Regardless of whether Shkanon is true or false, Bern's murder solution didn't even necessitate it one way or another. In fact, the way Bernkastel has presented it, the entire story does not require Shkanon be determined with any veracity whatsoever. It can be true, it can be false, it doesn't even matter. That alone should be a giant red flag to Shkanon supporters and deniers alike; if the very same episode goes to such incredible lengths to discuss this strange personage, why doesn't the solution really even need him/her to exist?
Because she's the one who decides to keep the game.
The closed room murders exist to prove that there's something going on with Shannon and Kanon.
The Epitaph is the for the gold and the bomb to be found.

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Heck, take out "Beatrice" and the Tea Party could just as well play out the same way. Epitaph solved, adults flip out, Kyrie and Rudolf go gangsta on everybody. What part of this required Shkanon? What part of this was caused by Battler's sin? There is a clear and gaping divide between this supposed "answer," the answers Will gives in the main story, and the setup leading up to the end of the main story.
Take out Beatrice and there are no letters.
Take out the letters and no one would have given one fuck about the Epitaph - at least, not enough to take it seriously, and solve it.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:25   Link #237
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It also completely contradicts the Love Trial of ep6. We're told this is a serious internal conflict (if we buy that there's a triple identity) between three equal pulls. Yet ep7 seems to suggest Yasu/Beatrice/Leon is basically the only one that matters, and her affection for Battler is the only thing that matters. Kanon's feelings for Jessica, or Shannon and George's engagement, are scarcely even touched on. Aren't those things important, if this theory is true?
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Because she's the one who decides to keep the game.
The closed room murders exist to prove that there's something going on with Shannon and Kanon.
The Epitaph is the for the gold and the bomb to be found.
Why has no one ever found the bomb before? If it's a trigger, who triggers it, and why? Is it necessary that the epitaph always be solved in every episode?

The closed rooms don't really touch on Kanon or Shannon half the time, save instances where they're directly involved. Again, are we suggesting those are all just noise outright?
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Take out Beatrice and there are no letters.
Take out the letters and no one would have given one fuck about the Epitaph - at least, not enough to take it seriously, and solve it.
Fair point, but "Beatrice" need not be anybody. The letter could have been written by Kinzo himself for all it matters if all "Beatrice" needs to do is spur people on to solve the epitaph. All her problems and internal conflicts set up prior to that point seem wholly irrelevant. That can't be right, can it?
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:33   Link #238
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It also completely contradicts the Love Trial of ep6. We're told this is a serious internal conflict (if we buy that there's a triple identity) between three equal pulls. Yet ep7 seems to suggest Yasu/Beatrice/Leon is basically the only one that matters, and her affection for Battler is the only thing that matters. Kanon's feelings for Jessica, or Shannon and George's engagement, are scarcely even touched on. Aren't those things important, if this theory is true?
That's also which I found quite weird. Maybe I'm a little subjective but why build all the drama around those other couples and give them so much development with each other if in the end only Yasu's feelings for Battler matter. I find that almost stupid as Shannon dated George for 2 years, is even engaged and Kanon himself said he held feelings for her almost from the very beginning (about three years).
The lack of Jessica's involvement is also weird. Wasn't the excuse to hire Yasu that he/she was supposed ot be a playmate for her?
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:36   Link #239
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It also completely contradicts the Love Trial of ep6. We're told this is a serious internal conflict (if we buy that there's a triple identity) between three equal pulls. Yet ep7 seems to suggest Yasu/Beatrice/Leon is basically the only one that matters, and her affection for Battler is the only thing that matters. Kanon's feelings for Jessica, or Shannon and George's engagement, are scarcely even touched on. Aren't those things important, if this theory is true?
Even in EP6 it was quite clear that Battler was always #1. In fact, from EP1 onwards that's rather obvious when everyone but Battler is getting murdered. Why did Battler and Beato lost the trial? Because Battler disappeared. EP7 tells us Kanon was born soon after Shannon "gave her feelings" to Beatrice. Shannon fell in love with George and Kanon fell for Jessica. This happened because Battler disappeared for 6 years.

I don't really see any major contractions.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:43   Link #240
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Even in EP6 it was quite clear that Battler was always #1. In fact, from EP1 onwards that's rather obvious when everyone but Battler is getting murdered. Why did Battler and Beato lost the trial? Because Battler disappeared. EP7 tells us Kanon was born soon after Shannon "gave her feelings" to Beatrice. Shannon fell in love with George and Kanon fell for Jessica. This happened because Battler disappeared for 6 years.

I don't really see any major contractions.
Also Shannon is the only person who could have killed everyone in EP1.

The questions are just:
Why did Hideyoshi lie about seing her corpse?
Assuming that the shed has never ben a closed room:
How the hell did she get out after Genji locked it?(note he used a brand new lock)
The usual procedure would be doubting the CR, but we have to consider that it is a shed and not a room with 90 x 200 door...
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