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Old 2010-12-28, 19:27   Link #2461
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
@Jan-Poo: basically regular Shkanon (Shannon = Kanon, no such person as Kanon exists) versus my take on Shkanon (I outlined it in the latest page of Spoilers & Speculations).
Well... I find it very unlikely that there are several different shkanon setups in the various gameboards. I believe it's a lot more probable that there is a single explanation for everything. This is an Occam razor logic. The theory that explains the most with less is probably the right one. The fictional shkanon theory doesn't requires case by case explanations.

In addition any theory that sassumes the existence of two distinct persons named Kanon and Shannon does't explain the love duel as well as a theory that assumes there's only one person.
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:29   Link #2462
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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
And I'm still searching for a plausible answer as to why Genji is doing it as well.
Well, some of the masters of the genre during the golden age treated servants like furniture, as in really just accessories to the house. I think Carr wrote something about it at one point actively calling them furniture. So Genji and Shannon/Kanon (superficially) are probably trying to fit that traditional mold of the servants in that era
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:36   Link #2463
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How does Shkanon get by the first twilight of the first game? There are no body double tricks, and Battler is standing beside Kanon, who burns Shannon's face into his eyes.

So, there are 2 possibilities I can see.
1) Hideyoshi is lying, there is no corpse there, and Kanon (being Shannon) is playing along.
2) Kanon isn't actually there, and the scene is a lie.

Is there some other option here? If you pick number 1, does that mean Hideyoshi/Eva are the culprit? But then why do they die next, and the murder is almost certainly carried out by Kanon and crew?

If you pick #2, well, if you ask me, that's a pretty lame solution. That means most of what we've seen is probably false too.
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:38   Link #2464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well, some of the masters of the genre during the golden age treated servants like furniture, as in really just accessories to the house. I think Carr wrote something about it at one point actively calling them furniture. So Genji and Shannon/Kanon (superficially) are probably trying to fit that traditional mold of the servants in that era
But Yasu only seems to make up the description "furniture" to apply to herself after she's complained to Genji and Nanjo about "that body which is unable to love", doesn't she?

Only possible reason I thought of concerning Genji was the following:
Yasu was so deranged because of her body issues, that she actually started to refer to herself as "furniture" in front of others, such as the fellow servants, or Natsuhi/Krauss (maybe even Kinzo). To cover this up and not make Yasu stand out even more, he started using the expression as well.

But then why doesn't Kumasawa use it as well to refer to herself? (She doesn't if I remember correctly? Or am I wrong here?) She was always shown as kind of a protective mother figure to Yasu, so she'd probably want to support her as well.
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:41   Link #2465
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
How does Shkanon get by the first twilight of the first game? There are no body double tricks, and Battler is standing beside Kanon, who burns Shannon's face into his eyes.

So, there are 2 possibilities I can see.
1) Hideyoshi is lying, there is no corpse there, and Kanon (being Shannon) is playing along.
2) Kanon isn't actually there, and the scene is a lie.

Is there some other option here? If you pick number 1, does that mean Hideyoshi/Eva are the culprit? But then why do they die next, and the murder is almost certainly carried out by Kanon and crew?
If you go by the assumption that Will made the correct deductions in Ep7, you'd probably have to go with the first one.

After "battling" Clair, he even says something along the lines of:
"But this was a risky game to begin with. What if the poor guy wanted to see her face and stepped inside?"

Which can only mean George and is thus heavily implying Shannon's corpse was never there to begin with.
Which leaves the question as to why Hideyoshi was lying.
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:46   Link #2466
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This is my last post for now; I'm retiring for the night. If you want to continue this, TehChron, I'll read your response tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Don't you mean why don't I tell you why you're wrong?
Oh boy.

Quote:
Then that entire basis is irrelevant. Ultimately the fiction puts Kanon forth as an entity on the same level as Shannon, with the same knowledge base. The Love Duel presents a context for why that is, specifically, they're the same person.

The issue here isn't that there is foreshadowing that Kanon and Shannon are the same or are different individuals. The problem is that there's no foreshadowing that Shannon is exclusively pretending to be a stand-in for real Kanon. A one-sided impersonation is entirely your invention.

Prove your basis if you want to be taken seriously.
I don't understand what you call my invention. Did I say Shannon is a stand-in for Kanon? Don't tell me what my argument is. I said I have no problem with Shannon having a "Kanon" identity that is separate from Kanon, which, far as I can see, resolves this problem.

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Irony.
And if you want to be taken seriously, maintain at least a basic level of respect to people you talk with.

Quote:
On what basis? Sorry, it shouldn't be a problem to demonstrate what lines exactly foreshadow this possibility, right?
Foreshadow that Kanon was killed before? I have two reasons to suspect this: one, my claim that there were 16 people in EPs 1-4, but 18 people in EPs 5-7 (I did provide basis for this, if you read my argument), and two, I believe it's a simpler, and more logical explanation than regular Shkanon, which I believe overcomplicates the issue (as I already explained several times).

Quote:
Do you even know why the Logic Error strongly implies Shkannon as the solution? And why the character status credits at the end show Kanon as being "dead on the second twilight", the only dead character not on the first? Kanon dies on the second twilight. The only chance he has to do so is after rescuing Battler, since only Kanon can use his name, and the reds state he did in fact save Battler.

Do I need to explain that logic error to you? Would you like me to? ahahaha.wav
The end credits are hardly a source you can trust. And it is your opinion that the Logic Error strongly implies Shkanon, not a fact I have to accept. If you think this is the case, justify it, like you keep telling me to.

Quote:
Quit demanding proof for other basis' when your own interpretation is even less supported by the text.

The onus isn't on others to cure you of your ignorance, read the novel like the rest of us did. Simple. You're the one who's raising a counter theory, so you're just as obligated to provide evidence as regular Shkanon is.

That's what it means to debate. That's what it means to make a case. Get with the program or get moving.
1) I am getting tired of reading baseless claims from you, when you expect me to provide you with the highest standard of evidence. If you want something beyond the justifications I gave in my posts (which you either didn't read or didn't understand), I'm sorry, but I don't have the time right now, and I don't see the point.
2) "Because everyone thinks so" is not automatic proof for Shkanon, and I am -not- the only one to raise objections to Shkanon (there were several objections earlier in the thread, and more in the Spoilers & Speculations thread; the latest I remember was Renall's, but I know of more). I don't even disagree with Shkanon, only the most common iteration of it.
3) Let me tell you what a debate is. It's not an aggressive back-and-forth "argument", for one. It's not a game of proving me wrong. It's objectively, patiently, and respectfully weighing your perspective against another's, and forming unbiased conclusions. You haven't once been respectful or patient, nor have you ever tried to even consider what I'm saying might be more than complete rubbish. I expect at least some maturity from anyone I debate with, and you've exhibited none of it. Have I been mature? Maybe not enough. But I carefully weighed my position against yours and Aura's, and I freely admitted I could very well be wrong.

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-28 at 20:00.
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:52   Link #2467
Mcjon01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
I don't remember this, sorry. If you give me the exact context (the lines), I could tell you what I think about it. Either way I don't think this is a big problem.
Since nobody else did, this is the scene he was talking about.

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:56   Link #2468
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They are probably referring to Kinzo when they say "father" though. Not Battler.
This is what I thought from the beginning, seeing as how they've always been said to have been made by Kinzo.

However I never suspected that they actually meant their biological father...
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Old 2010-12-28, 19:57   Link #2469
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Is there some other option here? If you pick number 1, does that mean Hideyoshi/Eva are the culprit? But then why do they die next, and the murder is almost certainly carried out by Kanon and crew?
That's a pretty big leap to claim that they have to be the culprit just because they go along with a lie. When everybody has so far gone with more than one lie at some point in Umineko. Episodes 5 and 6 pretty much demonstrate this to the up-tenth degree. You're forgetting plenty of other people who are complicit in being silent about this lie in this scene too.
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:00   Link #2470
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Oh boy.
Like it? I thought you would need some confirmation of what my intentions were.


Quote:
I don't understand what you call my invention. Did I say Shannon is a stand-in for Kanon? Don't tell me what my argument is. I said I have no problem with Shannon having a "Kanon" identity that is separate from Kanon, which, far as I can see, resolves this problem.
So how is that different from what I said is your invention? Either way, a one sided stand in or a "separate Shannon identity from the real Kanon" is still entirely your invention.

Supporting evidence is something you demanded of others.


Quote:
And if you want to be taken seriously, maintain at least a basic level of respect to people you talk with.
I don't respect people who call others a dolt when they haven't even been insulted yet. Respects something that's earned, after all.

Why should I take you seriously, anyway? Aren't you the one looking for validation?

Quote:
Foreshadow that Kanon was killed before? I have two reasons to suspect this: one, my claim that there were 16 people in EPs 1-4, but 18 people in EPs 5-7 (I did provide basis for this, if you read my argument), and two, I believe it's a simpler, and more logical explanation than regular Shkanon, which I believe overcomplicates the issue (as I already explained several times).
Where is it stated in red that there are 18 people in those episodes?

There are only 17, confirmed, in Episode 6. Once again, your explanation is not supported by the text. I did read your argument, but it's almost entirely your speculation. But please, if the evidence is on hand, feel free to re-cite it.

Quote:
The end credits are hardly a source you can trust. And it is your opinion that the Logic Error strongly implies Shkanon, not a fact I have to accept. If you think this is the case, justify it, like you keep telling me to.
The Logic Error is free to imply anything, it implies Shkannon very strongly. You don't have to accept it, but the fact of the matter is that it does. Until you can come up with an alternative explanation for why Kanon is dead on the second twilight after saving Battler, I'll take you seriously.

If it's supported by the text, even better.
Quote:
1) I am getting tired of reading baseless claims from you, when you expect me to provide you with the highest standard of evidence. If you want something beyond the justifications I gave in my posts (which you either didn't read or didn't understand), I'm sorry, but I don't have the time right now, and I don't see the point.
Get over yourself. You're not in a position to demand proof from others and then hide behind excuses for why you can't meet the same standard you apply to others.

That's hypocrisy.
Quote:
2) "Because everyone thinks so" is not automatic proof for Shkanon, and I am -not- the only one to raise objections to Shkanon (there were several objections earlier in the thread, and more in the Spoilers & Speculations thread; the latest I remember was Renall's, but I know of more).
So? I've raised objections to Shkannon too, but that doesn't invalidate it as an argument.

Just because you refuse to accept it doesnt make it any less viable a possibility. Again, arrogance.
Quote:
3) Let me tell you what a debate is. It's not an argument, for one. It's not a game of proving me wrong. It's objectively, patiently, and respectfully weighing your perspective against another's, and forming unbiased conclusions. You haven't once been respectful or patient, nor have you ever tried to even consider what I'm saying might be more than complete rubbish. I expect at least some maturity from anyone I debate with, and you've exhibited none of it. Have I been mature? Maybe not enough. But I carefully weighed my position against yours and Aura's, and I freely admitted I could very well be wrong.
Your childishness in addressing me, the fact that you're not even being objective in your subjective applications of facts, stubborn refusal to consider the validity of other arguments "because you dont remember what they're referring to", and the fact that you're being entirely disrespectful of Aura's defense of the "disguise" issue based on his personal experience by refusing to accept it's plausibility.

So let me tell you something: When you yourself can adhere to the standards you yourself have set, then you can lecture others. But until you can get over your own bias towards your own conclusions, you have no business acting like an authority on argumentation.
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:06   Link #2471
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
They are probably referring to Kinzo when they say "father" though. Not Battler.
This is what I thought from the beginning, seeing as how they've always been said to have been made by Kinzo.

However I never suspected that they actually meant their biological father...
Reading this as Yasu being their Father is actually pretty interesting. So, I was wondering what makes Kanon turn into Shannon in the ep6 closed room. It would have to be based on who Erika is, right? Does this mean Erika is actually George in episode 6? Or is it Jessica, and it breaks Kanon's heart that she's a murderer? Though Erika couldn't really be either of them in episode 5, since they are supposed to be dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's a pretty big leap to claim that they have to be the culprit just because they go along with a lie. When everybody has so far gone with more than one lie at some point in Umineko. Episodes 5 and 6 pretty much demonstrate this to the up-tenth degree. You're forgetting plenty of other people who are complicit in being silent about this lie in this scene too.
That's why it is a question. I can't come up with a reasonable explanation for why Hideyoshi would lie about this. Especially if it was clear that the others were actually dead instead of play-dead. And then Hideyoshi dies afterwards, which is so suspicious.
Additionally, we can believe Yasu would take such a large chance, but Hideyoshi taking such a chance, too? Wouldn't Hideyoshi be scared someone would look at the non-existant corpse's face?
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:08   Link #2472
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Yes, but Hideyoshi was the one that convinced George to not come look. Right? Those were some wonderfully effective lines.
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:40   Link #2473
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Again, you're stating this as if it was a fact... Iirc, Gohda was the only servant actually shown dead in the Tea Party, and it was also explicitly stated that it was Gohda's key ring that Kyrie stole. It is quite unclear which servants she actually killed.
Kyrie and Rudolf speak as if they took care of all the servants. I doubt they'd just kill Gohda and then says "servants are taken care of."

Quote:
How does Shkanon get by the first twilight of the first game? There are no body double tricks, and Battler is standing beside Kanon, who burns Shannon's face into his eyes.
Battler never sees Shannon's body. We've told you this a million times and you just ignore it.

Quote:
They are probably referring to Kinzo when they say "father" though. Not Battler.
This is what I thought from the beginning, seeing as how they've always been said to have been made by Kinzo.

However I never suspected that they actually meant their biological father...
I agree. I referenced Battler simply because he's more closely connected in this particular episode, but Meta-Battler is sort of acting like a Kinzo allegory anyway.

The point of the matter is that both Shannon and Kanon refer to Kinzo/Kinzo Allegory as their Father. This makes sense for Shannon, but why Kanon?

Quote:
Reading this as Yasu being their Father is actually pretty interesting. So, I was wondering what makes Kanon turn into Shannon in the ep6 closed room. It would have to be based on who Erika is, right? Does this mean Erika is actually George in episode 6? Or is it Jessica, and it breaks Kanon's heart that she's a murderer? Though Erika couldn't really be either of them in episode 5, since they are supposed to be dead.
In EP6, Erika pretty much has to be Jessica by process of elimination.
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:50   Link #2474
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Battler never sees Shannon's body. We've told you this a million times and you just ignore it.
And in the million times, you have never come up with a good answer to my question and just ignore it. Why would Hideyoshi lie about this, especially if the others are real-dead when they're supposed to be fake-dead?

Wouldn't Hideyoshi be worried that someone besides George would see Shannon's non-existant body?

If Hideyoshi is lying, he is somehow in on the murders, but why does he end up dead next? Especially when the only person who would kill him is the Shkanon that he just cooperated with?
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:52   Link #2475
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
And in the million times, you have never come up with a good answer to my question and just ignore it. Why would Hideyoshi lie about this, especially if the others are real-dead when they're supposed to be fake-dead?

Wouldn't Hideyoshi be worried that someone besides George would see Shannon's non-existant body?

If Hideyoshi is lying, he is somehow in on the murders, but why does he end up dead next? Especially when the only person who would kill him is the Shkanon that he just cooperated with?
He's in on the fake murders, because he's been paid off by YasuShannontrice.

Kanon's fine since he's YasuShannon. And the reason the pay off works is because Hideyoshi's share of that 1 billion yen would probably be enough to save his company.
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:57   Link #2476
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And then Yasu murders him and Eva? That doesn't follow. Especially for those people who do not suspect Yasu of murdering everyone.
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Old 2010-12-28, 20:59   Link #2477
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
And then Yasu murders him and Eva? That doesn't follow. Especially for those people who do not suspect Yasu of murdering everyone.
Fake murders are fake. Will described all of Episode 1's murders up until Natsuhi's death as "Illusion to Illusion", right? That's confirmation enough that they're all part of the fake Twilights plan.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:01   Link #2478
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No, the illusion in the second twilight was the lock, not the murders. And it would be pretty darn hard to fake a stake in your head, or you're so pale in the shower that all your blood has run out.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:09   Link #2479
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And in the million times, you have never come up with a good answer to my question and just ignore it. Why would Hideyoshi lie about this, especially if the others are real-dead when they're supposed to be fake-dead?
It's all a game. They're not dead (as far as Hideoyshi knows) it's just convincing makeup. This is all a scripted scene.

That, or Kanon secretly has a pistol against Hideyoshi and is all "Do what I say, fatso."

Quote:
And then Yasu murders him and Eva? That doesn't follow. Especially for those people who do not suspect Yasu of murdering everyone.
OR, Culprit X (Let's say for the sake of argument that Genji did it) broke in and killed them, in contrast and opposition of Yasu's fake murder game.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:09   Link #2480
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
No, the illusion in the second twilight was the lock, not the murders. And it would be pretty darn hard to fake a stake in your head, or you're so pale in the shower that all your blood has run out.
If theyre fake corpses it's not difficult at all. And the illusion was that the chain was never locked. Why would it never be locked? Eva and Hideyoshi aren't fool enough to not take precautions like that when the master keys are out and about.

Eva is much too cautious for such an oversight. So clearly they thought there was no danger.

So therefore, why did they think there was no danger? Thats the question. And the only reasonable answer is that they didn't think it could affect them. Why is that? Either theyre the culprits themselves (lol) or they knew about the murder game.

That they really got murdered or not has no bearing on whether or not they thought the first twilight was real. But the status of the chain does.
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