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Old 2010-12-28, 21:12   Link #2481
AuraTwilight
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There's also the possibility that Kanon cut the chain before murdering them, so that the Closed Room never existed.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:15   Link #2482
TehChron
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There's also the possibility that Kanon cut the chain before murdering them, so that the Closed Room never existed.
In which case the question of why Hideyoshi warned George off becomes answered as well.

Kanon wasn't burning Shannon's image into his eyes, he was burning Hideyoshi's. Either way, it's solvable.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:18   Link #2483
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's all a game. They're not dead (as far as Hideoyshi knows) it's just convincing makeup. This is all a scripted scene.

That, or Kanon secretly has a pistol against Hideyoshi and is all "Do what I say, fatso."
Assuming they aren't dead, what reasons does Hideyoshi have to go along with the scripted scene?
The fake death scenario from game 5 is to make Natushi confess, but Krauss wouldn't go along with that.
The fake death scenario from game 6 appears to be set up by the family to question Genji, but Genji is the one dead here.


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OR, Culprit X (Let's say for the sake of argument that Genji did it) broke in and killed them, in contrast and opposition of Yasu's fake murder game.
Genji isn't a killer. Who else would do this? There's no point in saying Culprit X. Let's talk about real people, motives, and means.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:24   Link #2484
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Assuming they aren't dead, what reasons does Hideyoshi have to go along with the scripted scene?
The fake death scenario from game 5 is to make Natushi confess, but Krauss wouldn't go along with that.
The fake death scenario from game 6 appears to be set up by the family to question Genji, but Genji is the one dead here.
Hideyoshi has motivation to go along with it by reason of getting lots and lots of money.

Money they were planning to wring out of Krauss. But since someone else actually has the money and is willing to hand it over then and there in exchange for a couple of days of acting, well, why not?


The fake death scenario is certainly set up to implicate Natsuhi, sure.

But Natsuhi isnt the culprit. So the question is why would the dead go along with the scheme? Same reason they go along with it in game 6.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:30   Link #2485
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Assuming they aren't dead, what reasons does Hideyoshi have to go along with the scripted scene?
The fake death scenario from game 5 is to make Natushi confess, but Krauss wouldn't go along with that.
The fake death scenario from game 6 appears to be set up by the family to question Genji, but Genji is the one dead here.
"I'm the heir to the family. I have a shitton of Gold. Do this thing for me and I'll give you all the money to solve all your problems no strings attached."

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Genji isn't a killer. Who else would do this? There's no point in saying Culprit X. Let's talk about real people, motives, and means.
It doesn't have to be Genji, I just picked the first name off my head. The point is that Yasu doesn't have to be the murderer, someone could be running counter to them.

We're continually told that someone is using the phenomena of Beatrice to do the murders without being noticed, so it's entirely logical that someone is doing real murders behind Yasu's show.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:34   Link #2486
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There's also the possibility that Kanon cut the chain before murdering them, so that the Closed Room never existed.
Right, that is pretty much what Will says. The illusion is that the chain wasn't cut until after the murder.

I have a hard time believing they can fake their deaths here, unless the stakes are supposed to be trick weapons. I mean, they're embedded in their foreheads.

Also, they are declared "killed" in red. They don't have any convenient tricks for not dying for real like Shkanon.

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Hideyoshi has motivation to go along with it by reason of getting lots and lots of money.

Money they were planning to wring out of Krauss. But since someone else actually has the money and is willing to hand it over then and there in exchange for a couple of days of acting, well, why not?

The fake death scenario is certainly set up to implicate Natsuhi, sure.

But Natsuhi isnt the culprit. So the question is why would the dead go along with the scheme? Same reason they go along with it in game 6.
But if they already know the location of the gold, they no longer have any need to play games to fool people. Krauss would never go along with fooling his wife, that just doesn't make any sense. He would just explain that Kinzo was really dead after they learned of the gold.

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We're continually told that someone is using the phenomena of Beatrice to do the murders without being noticed, so it's entirely logical that someone is doing real murders behind Yasu's show.
So who do you think it is?
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:45   Link #2487
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But if they already know the location of the gold, they no longer have any need to play games to fool people. Krauss would never go along with fooling his wife, that just doesn't make any sense. He would just explain that Kinzo was really dead after they learned of the gold.
Money is money.

Lots of money is lots of money.

That Yasu offered to pay them off doesn't mean she needed to show the siblings where the Gold was hidden, right?
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:45   Link #2488
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And they would believe Yasu how? And does this mean Yasu doesn't actually want them to solve the epitaph, but instead just play-act with him?
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:54   Link #2489
TehChron
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And they would believe her how?
Let's set that aside for a moment:

We know the money exists. We know the gold exists. We know the siblings know that exists.

Therefore, all that needs to be proven is that Yasu controls those assets. Not that she has them right there on the island.

Therefore, all Yasu needs to do is show them Kinzo's will naming her the heir. Or, if it refers to the one who solves the epitaph, just have the servants corroborate that she did indeed solve it.

With the fact she controls the wealth of the family as leverage, that's enough to get the adults to play along.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:55   Link #2490
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And they would believe her how?
Why are you being so defensive? If you think so hard about answering the answers you're just gonna get a headache.

reread episode 2 or something and come up with your own answer okay?

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And does this mean Yasu doesn't actually want them to solve the epitaph, but instead just play-act with him?
well duh. She has nothing to gain from that right?
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:05   Link #2491
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Also, they are declared "killed" in red. They don't have any convenient tricks for not dying for real like Shkanon.
The fact that we can say that Eva died in red at all proves that the Red can refer to fictions, such as people dying in a game.

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But if they already know the location of the gold, they no longer have any need to play games to fool people. Krauss would never go along with fooling his wife, that just doesn't make any sense. He would just explain that Kinzo was really dead after they learned of the gold.
Everyone was in on it but the cousins. Discussing the game is the reason the kids are ushered out to the guesthouse.

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So who do you think it is?
At this point, I'm not entirely sure a real murderer exists or that it's the slightest bit relevant if they do.

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And they would believe Yasu how?
"Lol Kinzo's ring, all the servants backing up my word, a copy of his will, and a billion yen cash card. Believe me now?"
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:17   Link #2492
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Why are you being so defensive? If you think so hard about answering the answers you're just gonna get a headache.
I'm just trying to explore the implications of what some people are suggesting. I hate that a lot of people stop at "Yep, Yasu is everybody, the end."

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The fact that we can say that Eva died in red at all proves that the Red can refer to fictions, such as people dying in a game.
So the red doesn't really mean anything, then?

"Both killed by another person" according to the fiction, they're actually just fine. "Only one chapel key exists" according to the story. There are actually 17, and we use them all behind your back.

The red only tells the truth about fiction, is it? Very disappointing if true.

I still don't see how they can fake deaths with a stake embedded in their skull. No murders at all? Must make it pretty easy for Battler to get a happy ending.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:24   Link #2493
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I'm just trying to explore the implications of what some people are suggesting. I hate that a lot of people stop at "Yep, Yasu is everybody, the end."


So the red doesn't really mean anything, then?

"Both killed by another person" according to the fiction, they're actually just fine. "Only one chapel key exists" according to the story. There are actually 17, and we use them all behind your back.

The red only tells the truth about fiction, is it? Very disappointing if true.

I still don't see how they can fake deaths with a stake embedded in their skull. No murders at all? Must make it pretty easy for Battler to get a happy ending.
No, the red only tells the truth relative to it's context. Therefore Kanon was the Second Twilight and Kanon was a victim of the First Twilight can coexist and not contradict one another since theyre referring to different episodes.

That being said, of course its referring to fiction, the Rokkenjimma Serial Murders didnt occur in real life.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:27   Link #2494
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That, and there's reds that say Eva is dead. So um...yea, what about this 1998 thing?

People get way to caught up about interpreting the Red literally. It's like a bunch of bulls running off a cliff.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:30   Link #2495
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I still don't see how they can fake deaths with a stake embedded in their skull. No murders at all? Must make it pretty easy for Battler to get a happy ending.
It could be a chopped-off stake glued onto their forehead.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:33   Link #2496
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It could be a chopped-off stake glued onto their forehead.
Or it's a collapsible stake, which doesn't make sense with how short the handle is but whatever. They don't point that out in the VN. Really theories about fake stakes for fake deaths have been around forever.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:34   Link #2497
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Or it's a collapsible stake, which doesn't make sense with how short the handle is but whatever. They don't point that out in the VN. Really theories about fake stakes for fake deaths have been around forever.
Considering the shape is supposedly a spiral, drill like structure, it's not impossible.

They could have been borrowed from Gainax or something.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:39   Link #2498
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I'm not suggesting the reds don't go along with the context from how they are said, or what game they go with. Where did you get that idea?

I take issue with the following interpretation:
Both were killed by another person in the story that everybody is trying to make the kids believe, but they're really perfectly fine.

Some stakes are pulled out of people though. There really isn't anything to suggest the stakes have been modified. I think Battler even examines one at one point.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:50   Link #2499
TehChron
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I'm not suggesting the reds don't go along with the context from how they are said, or what game they go with. Where did you get that idea?

I take issue with the following interpretation:
Both were killed by another person in the story that everybody is trying to make the kids believe, but they're really perfectly fine.

Some stakes are pulled out of people though. There really isn't anything to suggest the stakes have been modified. I think Battler even examines one at one point.
...What? That red you just quoted is a confirmation that a murder happened...so...Im having trouble figuring out what exactly you're taking an issue with here.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:50   Link #2500
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I take issue with the following interpretation:
Both were killed by another person in the story that everybody is trying to make the kids believe, but they're really perfectly fine.
Good thing nobody really interprets it that way then. You were the one who suggested it buddy. We just explained how it was possible.

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Some stakes are pulled out of people though. There really isn't anything to suggest the stakes have been modified. I think Battler even examines one at one point.
He only ever investigates one in episode 4. Since Battler usually never sees any himself up close I'm still skeptical about them being a necessary for it to work. Even though it's implied Kinzo bought them.
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