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Old 2011-01-19, 03:50   Link #2801
winter 923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She says the crisis would've been averted if Battler came back a year earlier or later. You're paraphrasing incorrectly.
Yea i got it wrong here is the original wording
Spoiler for space:
I can see that people say that incident would be Yasu quitting and leaving the island but the comparing with a murder threw me off.
Spoiler for eh 6 years passed?:
What i don't like about making every Episode fictional is the meta world. It is basicly ignoring that Battler from EP1 got in the meta world and did fight with Beatrice over several Episodes. The whole "Battler remembers his crime and finds Beatrice's truth" is a long road in the meta world beginning from EP1. I can't see how this fits into the Author theory
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Old 2011-01-19, 04:04   Link #2802
Witch of Uncertainty
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Okay, I only have one last question regarding the "one" real world thing.
As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.
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Old 2011-01-19, 05:06   Link #2803
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Originally Posted by winter 923 View Post
What i don't like about making every Episode fictional is the meta world. It is basicly ignoring that Battler from EP1 got in the meta world and did fight with Beatrice over several Episodes. The whole "Battler remembers his crime and finds Beatrice's truth" is a long road in the meta world beginning from EP1. I can't see how this fits into the Author theory
If you're talking about the Author Theory that some of us discuss on here, then Meta-Battler is technically one of the characters in the fiction. And the Meta World is also part of the fiction, to some degree.

The Author Theory isn't just that the stories are fiction. That's one of the early forms of the theory. The one I proposed (or rather the theory I proposed that makes it so that it's not useless) states that the episodes were written with clues and truth in mind; so that the authors are compelling you to try and find the truth or to convey the truth, etc.

Especially so for Beatrice/Yasu's stories.

The full explanation is in my signature link, under Umineko Unified Theories. The theories there only spoil till EP6. I haven't needed to update any of them after EP7 or 8.


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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.
My idea is that the Erika that we see in EP5 and 6 may not even really be the Rokkenjima Prime Erika. Or, basically her character and the idea that she is a traditional 'Great Detective' doesn't really hold water for Rokkenjima Prime in my opinion. How can there be a 'detective character' in a real world? So, I believe the person 'Furudo Erika' was hijacked into a character for EP5 and 6 and her portrayal in those stories may not even slightly resemble the Erika from Rokkenjima Prime.

But yah, her family, and her real world circumstances don't seem to really count in EP5 and 6... she seems to be a character of convenience... 8)
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Old 2011-01-19, 06:14   Link #2804
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Quote:
Clair "However, as long as the fact that Battler-san returns in 1986 remains unchanged, ......some sort of tragedy would certainly have occurred."
Will "That's right. If Battler had returned a year earlier or later, ...that incident might not have occurred."
Narrator "No, some small incident would probably have occurred. And it would surely have been a mysterious, impossible incident, which no one could understand.
But even so, compared to the Rokkenjima serial murders, it would be a tiny thing..."
I'm pretty sure this is referring to either Shannon or Kanon ceasing to exist. The adults flipping out and getting into a fight over gold wouldn't be a tiny thing.

Quote:
...thanks to looking after this part i found something strange
Clair "It made me walk the path of a witch, and when I solved the epitaph, I became a true witch. ...Then, six years passed, and I learned of his return."

It might be because of my insufficient english knowledge but doesn't this say six years passed after she solved the epitaph?
Not quite. It should be written better, but it's more like "Then I completed the Epitaph. Then, I noticed that it had been six years since [Battler left]."

The change in the subject implies a shift in time comparison.

Quote:
Okay, I only have one last question regarding the "one" real world thing.
As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.
The idea is that Erika never came to Rokkenjima, so she "can't exist there." Morever, apparently Bernkastel took the Erika Furudo character and sort of remade it to fit her purposes. At the very least, she says she gave Erika blue hair. It's sort of like a fictional version based on the real Erika who just sort of drowned.
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Old 2011-01-19, 09:03   Link #2805
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If alternate universes exist, how can One Truth be possible?
Well this actually made me think about what the truth I want exposed. There's no two ways about it, what matters is what happened in the world where we can see the 1998 perspective, with grown up Ange etc.

Of course there are others. For example the "happy ending" Willard is looking for...but I don't care about that one. Actually, Willard kind of annoyed me when he revealed that in the end. Does that mean he has an agenda, to never accept a truth that's unhappy? What was his deduction and the identification of Beatrice then? Just fabrication? Bernkastel actually taunted him about this, saying it's ridiculous for him of all people to give up to magic, and I have to agree.

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Moreover, is there necessarily a difference between a fictional story and a parallel universe?
Philosophical. I personally don't care for either thing and will be happy with one truth. XD
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Old 2011-01-19, 09:24   Link #2806
maximilianjenus
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Since I can't get into an agreement in the rokkenjima prime/author theory as I prefer the akasha/quantum concept because I find it religiously elegant , I will avoid talking about that and move to the "what would happen if battler did not come back to rokkenjima" discussion.

In case he came back later, shannon would have already married george, that already ensures an incident related to eva not liking that, so a big fight would happen, the family would take sides; if shannon did not reveal that she is the family head then not even a murder would happen as eva is not a murderer; it would have been worse if shannon revealed to be the family head as that would involve the rest of the family including murderer kyrie.

In case he came back earlier he would have beaten george and jessica in the love duel, nobody would oppose to their marriage and even if shannon for no good reason revealed to be the family head kyrie would be on their side so the murders would be kept at a minimum if they happened at all ( my guess is that kyrie would wait until everythign calmed down then kill krauss' family with magic).
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Old 2011-01-19, 09:52   Link #2807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
Okay, I only have one last question regarding the "one" real world thing.
As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.
Most people already started explaining this but I will give it another go.

There was a Furudo Erika who took a boat-trip with her boyfriend during the time the family conference occured.
This boat of course also got into the typhoon that hit the islands.
Through not closer examined circumstances Furudo Erika went over board and was never rescued (I for one assume she was pushed over by her boyfriend).

Because her body was never recovered (which is not uncommon in that part of the sea) people have assumed several things about her and they can because she basically never died...she just vanished.
So Hachij˘ T˘ya decided to use her as a character in the stories (probably some other authors too) and ended her fate in that way, that she somehow made it to the shore of Rokkenjima and became a detective there...and because Rokkenjima is a catbox nobody can prove that she was not on the island.
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Old 2011-01-19, 10:41   Link #2808
maximilianjenus
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was her boyfriend ever implied to be in the boat as well i got the impression that hey had broken up for a few weeks already, which also implie s asuicide from erika's part.
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Old 2011-01-19, 10:46   Link #2809
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Such a thing was never implied. Suicide is the most probable explanation here.
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Old 2011-01-19, 11:24   Link #2810
maximilianjenus
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a)Just to point out that while Is eriously disagree with you on the author theory and I am letting that go, as I have been (slowly) reading the pre patch post (I am currently on page 75 of this topic) I pretty much agree with you on your reasoning on several other account regarding umineko.

b)Something that I consider an interesting exercise (but I am waiting until after ep08 is translated to do it properly) is to write a single scenario for which all red truth applies.
Is there a list of red truths somewhere online, preferably separated by episode ?

c)I am very satisfied with this episode, as I suspected kyrie and kanon a lot especially after episode 4 was out and I got a chance to re-read the previous ones, but I cna understand a lot of people hating it, especially because the first pages of the topic gave me that impression; can't wait until 8 is translated.
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Old 2011-01-19, 11:58   Link #2811
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
Is there a list of red truths somewhere online, preferably separated by episode ?
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth
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Old 2011-01-19, 14:59   Link #2812
AuraTwilight
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Of course there are others. For example the "happy ending" Willard is looking for...but I don't care about that one. Actually, Willard kind of annoyed me when he revealed that in the end. Does that mean he has an agenda, to never accept a truth that's unhappy? What was his deduction and the identification of Beatrice then? Just fabrication? Bernkastel actually taunted him about this, saying it's ridiculous for him of all people to give up to magic, and I have to agree.
No, Will wasn't really biased in his Clair execution. The thing is that he feels Bernkastel is artificially editing Lion's story to end tragically for no reason.

"Even though none of that backstory happens...um....everyone flips out and Lion dies, lol."

Quote:
In case he came back later, shannon would have already married george, that already ensures an incident related to eva not liking that, so a big fight would happen, the family would take sides; if shannon did not reveal that she is the family head then not even a murder would happen as eva is not a murderer; it would have been worse if shannon revealed to be the family head as that would involve the rest of the family including murderer kyrie.

In case he came back earlier he would have beaten george and jessica in the love duel, nobody would oppose to their marriage and even if shannon for no good reason revealed to be the family head kyrie would be on their side so the murders would be kept at a minimum if they happened at all ( my guess is that kyrie would wait until everythign calmed down then kill krauss' family with magic).
What makes you so sure Kyrie would kill anyone in those circumstances? The only reason she decided to kill anyone in the EP7 Tea Party was because she could destroy the evidence with the bomb.
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Old 2011-01-19, 16:30   Link #2813
maximilianjenus
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She would kill people to make sure that nobody interfers with battler becoming the new head, since the role of the female head is to make whoever marries her the head.
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Old 2011-01-19, 16:39   Link #2814
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
She would kill people to make sure that nobody interfers with battler becoming the new head, since the role of the female head is to make whoever marries her the head.
Killing his whole family because Battler doesn't like commitment is a pretty shallow reason to be a murderer. Funny how it's not denied by the red at all.
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:04   Link #2815
winter 923
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm pretty sure this is referring to either Shannon or Kanon ceasing to exist. The adults flipping out and getting into a fight over gold wouldn't be a tiny thing.
But there is still the "mysterious" and "no one could understand" if there is only one world then only Yasu knows that Kanon exist anyway there is nobody for anything to understand. It's her persona, the same with Gaap. Doesn't Kanon only exists in the real world because Yasu included him in the Message Bottles and Eva didn't say anything. I Agree that the gunfight wouldn't be tiny but let's say a death of Yasu and/or Rudolf would still be tiny compared to 15 dead people.
Quote:
If alternate universes exist, how can One Truth be possible?
Depends on the truth you seek. There is a "why did the bomb go off" and also "why Beatrice got killed". Meh might not even be the right question to solve this puzzle but my point is that there can be one truth and i am not talking about red.
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:11   Link #2816
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But there is still the "mysterious" and "no one could understand" if there is only one world then only Yasu knows that Kanon exist anyway there is nobody for anything to understand. It's her persona, the same with Gaap. Doesn't Kanon only exists in the real world because Yasu included him in the Message Bottles and Eva didn't say anything. I Agree that the gunfight wouldn't be tiny but let's say a death of Yasu and/or Rudolf would still be tiny compared to 15 dead people.
Quote:
Yasu walks around dressed as Shannon and Kanon. As far as most people know, Shannon and Kanon are actual people that George and Jessica are dating. If she marries George, Kanon will mysteriously disappear and no one will understand. Vice versa if she goes with Jessica and Shannon vanishes.

Also, I really doubt Yasu could predict ahead of time that a gunfight would happen when she merely learns that Battler's going to show up. She's not psychic, and it's not something she controls, like what happens to Shannon and Kanon.

Quote:
Depends on the truth you seek. There is a "why did the bomb go off" and also "why Beatrice got killed". Meh might not even be the right question to solve this puzzle but my point is that there can be one truth and i am not talking about red.
But if there are multiple universes, there are multiple answers. Higurashi isn't at all comparable, as Higurashi never even once pretended there was "One Truth" like Umineko.
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:11   Link #2817
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Spoiler for Higurashi:
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:21   Link #2818
maximilianjenus
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Killing his whole family because Battler doesn't like commitment is a pretty shallow reason to be a murderer. Funny how it's not denied by the red at all.
again, I guess my post was not clear enough; what does battler's commitment has to do with anything, the scenario I tried to write was the next:

1) battler marries shanon.
2) shanon says she is yasu thus revealing she is the head.
3) krauss/eva oposse the concept battler becomingthe next head.
4) kyrie kills them with magic.
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:24   Link #2819
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Oh I messed up. I thought you were talking about Yasu. Didn't read what Aura was saying.

But part of the reason for that misunderstanding was because you were talking about the role of the female head. Which shouldn't apply to Kyrie whatsoever. So what are you referring to there?

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-19 at 17:38.
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:28   Link #2820
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So...Kyrie kills them because....?

If she just kills people who dissent against Battler's headship, she won't get away with it and everything will fall apart. Kyrie is pragmatic, and only does things with the most benefit. It'd be better to just beat Krauss or Eva in a legal dispute than just kill them and get sent to jail.
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