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Old 2011-02-05, 19:40   Link #3001
AuraTwilight
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Well, in Clair's flashback, Yasu discusses that the stakes exist in Kinzo's storage.

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There's no way she could know a story Kinzo explicitly avoids ever telling anyone, though. I mean, maybe Claire can, but Yasu can't (even though Claire is... y'know what screw it). Anything she'd know someone would have to have told her. There's always going to be a bias layer there, so we either have to accept that this truth about Kinzo can somehow be dragged out or that it's someone's opinion, which makes it equally as questionable as Kinzo's own story. Unfortunately we just don't have any metric for veracity since, as has been noted, the spectator authority never promises objective truth.
I personally hold the opinion that Yasu added her own opinion to things, instead of actually hearing anything. It's not at all difficult to imagine that Kinzo was a soldier and schemed to get Nazi Gold; many of us here speculated as such long before EP7 ever came out.

Alternatively, Nanjo and Genji spilled the beans. "I'm the head, tell me everything."

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Well, we don't actually know if there was any faking on R-Prime, nor any murders. Especially if some variant on the shooting spree theory is the truth. Or it's all just a hilarious accident!
I acknowledge that; It does seem, however, that Yasu had this First Twilight thing PLANNED. Whether she got to execute it is arguable, but it's clearly in her head.
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Old 2011-02-05, 19:42   Link #3002
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Accidental Doublepost.
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Old 2011-02-05, 19:43   Link #3003
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, in Clair's flashback, Yasu discusses that the stakes exist in Kinzo's storage.
I remember that too. But we learn that Kinzo bought them in episode 5 as well in the tea party. So that didn't seem like new information to me when I read it.
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Old 2011-02-05, 20:13   Link #3004
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
Doesn't it violate with Knox 10, Which umineko follows?
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
How is poison any of these things? It neither unknown or hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Again, no one is saying that any later Twilights are faked. Stop being a retard and get your dick out of your face. I know you're capable of reading and understanding what I have to say.
The problem is, no one but Yasu could kill these people! It was a coffin locked from the inside.


# Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual (In this case, usual refers to the closed room scenarios prior.)
# The door and the windows were locked from the inside
# There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place
# Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off
# Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them
# And let me say this, the parlor's the same
# The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room
# So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!


Why did Yasu kill George and Gohda? Rosa couldn't do it! The room is locked from the INSIDE.

Also, Rosa couldn't kill anyone because she definitely didn't know about the motherfucking bomb.

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No one's entire half of a head is missing, and it's possible to fake having your face missing with makeup. It's not like Yasu can't afford Hollywood-quality professional makeup.
# Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

And, i mean, there are also headless bodies...
Let alone that none of this explains why would Krauss kill anyone. He doesn't know about the bomb or the gold.

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Suffocation.
She suffocated herself? Yasu suffocated her? What?


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That's not a Howdunnit. Do you know what the term means?
I read why, sorry.


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And why are they helping Yasu commit mass murder?
Because moneys.


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If Genji was as you say, he'd of just let Kinzo have at Yasu. Genji did not condone Kinzo's actions, and did what he did in order to allow Kinzo an oppurtunity to redeem himself for his actions. This is not a man who would robotically be complicit in mass murder.
But he DID manipulate half of Yasu life for Kinzo.

Reintroduce the baby properly or keep her away forever, do not trick her for all of childhood, causing her to hear people talking in her head.

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Suffocation doesn't always leave marks. And the use of poison isn't forbidden for suicide, since suicide is not murder.[
Again, i don't understand where are you pulling the "poison is forbidden stuff".
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Old 2011-02-05, 20:41   Link #3005
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Why did Yasu kill George and Gohda? Rosa couldn't do it! The room is locked from the INSIDE.
You have this strange idea that I'm arguing against the idea of Yasu being the culprit for the first four games. I'm not, and you need to stop telling me what my position is.

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# Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

And, i mean, there are also headless bodies...
Let alone that none of this explains why would Krauss kill anyone. He doesn't know about the bomb or the gold.
There are no headless bodies in the First Twilight. I've provided evidence for the First Twilight to be faked. There is evidence of death fakery, and thus fake blood, and thus makeup.

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She suffocated herself? Yasu suffocated her? What?
Either or.

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Because moneys.
That's retarded. Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa would never kill anyone because of money. Even if they were motivated by money, they know where the gold is. They can just grab some and run, or something.

You're treating Yasu and the servants as heartless human beings who go on mass murder sprees just because they can.

Quote:
But he DID manipulate half of Yasu life for Kinzo.

Reintroduce the baby properly or keep her away forever, do not trick her for all of childhood, causing her to hear people talking in her head.
He's not at fault for Yasu playing elaborate games of pretend with herself. She would have done that anyway; she did it to escape from bullying, and she was bullied at the orphanage too. If her narrative is reliable, she had Shannon as an imaginary friend before she even came to Rokkenjima.

Moreover, Yasu has the right to know who she really is. It's also not safe for her to be on the island with her identity exposed after Natsuhi tried to kill her. What the fuck is Genji supposed to do, here?
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Old 2011-02-05, 20:43   Link #3006
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Because moneys.
Refers to Episode 1. Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers

This is such a general statement about their character that lots of people like to apply this to all games.
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Old 2011-02-05, 21:23   Link #3007
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
To add on to this, EP6's purpose is to demonstrate that Battler understands the truth. If the Fake First Twilight thing is bullshit he made up, then this doesn't satisfy anything.
Final evidence: Battler claimed his closed rooms were just rehashes of some of Beatrice's.

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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
# Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual (In this case, usual refers to the closed room scenarios prior.)
# The door and the windows were locked from the inside
# There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place
# Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off
# Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them
# And let me say this, the parlor's the same
# The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room
# So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!


Why did Yasu kill George and Gohda? Rosa couldn't do it! The room is locked from the INSIDE.
None of these remotely suggest that Rosa can't be the culprit. In fact, these reds HAND HER THE KEYS. Why couldn't she have done it during one of the periods when Battler was drugged asleep?
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Old 2011-02-06, 01:03   Link #3008
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What Sherry said. Hypothesis:


Shannon and Kanon do not behave consistently within the stories, and it's very obvious that they use meta-knowledge and such to justify their actions. they're vehicles for the author inserted into the story and thus do not need in-universe motivations or justifications for their actions.

This is all supported within the text.
Hey, semi-regular lurker here.

Just to backpedal a bit, this is an issue that, in my opinion, prevents me from feeling satisfied with alot of the mystery elements : "Why did this person do that thing?" In light of all the events in Chiru (havent read EP8 yet, but I get the gist of what goes down) and the whole "Author Theory" thing, I can swallow that, sometimes, pieces can act in a new or unexpected way, so long as it's "possible for that person".

To get to the meat of it, alot of things seem to happen, and when you question the motivations for a person's actions, well, we speculate, and some speculations are pretty good. But sometimes it has to be handwaved as "Well, that's what they decided to do. Because." I'd probably accept that fully if not for Evatrice's EP3 "LULZ BRAINWASHED WITH MY MAGIC" move against Kyrie.

I can definitely see why Kumasawa said that Evatrice was using a "rare move" that Beato herself "never used". I assume that it to mean that in Yasu's writing, she's just never particularly concerned for rationally explaining (i.e, properly foreshadowing) every single piece of contradictory behavior. I assume further, since it's only brought up by Evatrice that once, that issues of "Why did character X do this silly thing?" are never a main theme in future writings, either. Currently on the mind - Shkanon shenanigans in EP6.

Actions that don't seem to make sense, and golden truth everywhere. It's just interesting to me because in the Question Arcs, Battler spent alot of time trying to reason out these things, whereas Will's solutions of only deciphering the specific Twilight Tricks leave those kinda of questions to a sort of "Well, whatever fills in the blank best for you."

I dunno. It just feels like we'd be an eternity trying to reach a consensus on the depths of Genji's passive-aggressive multi-task-trolling.
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Old 2011-02-06, 01:53   Link #3009
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Why did Yasu kill George and Gohda? Rosa couldn't do it! The room is locked from the INSIDE.
By all means, please explain how she disposed of the gun after giving herself a fatal head wound.
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Old 2011-02-06, 05:31   Link #3010
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By all means, please explain how she disposed of the gun after giving herself a fatal head wound.
They didn't search the room thoroughly. It could be lying around somewhere.

It could happen because after all, it was all in Yasu's writing.
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Old 2011-02-06, 06:08   Link #3011
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Hey, semi-regular lurker here.

Just to backpedal a bit, this is an issue that, in my opinion, prevents me from feeling satisfied with alot of the mystery elements : "Why did this person do that thing?" In light of all the events in Chiru (havent read EP8 yet, but I get the gist of what goes down) and the whole "Author Theory" thing, I can swallow that, sometimes, pieces can act in a new or unexpected way, so long as it's "possible for that person".

To get to the meat of it, alot of things seem to happen, and when you question the motivations for a person's actions, well, we speculate, and some speculations are pretty good. But sometimes it has to be handwaved as "Well, that's what they decided to do. Because." I'd probably accept that fully if not for Evatrice's EP3 "LULZ BRAINWASHED WITH MY MAGIC" move against Kyrie.

I can definitely see why Kumasawa said that Evatrice was using a "rare move" that Beato herself "never used". I assume that it to mean that in Yasu's writing, she's just never particularly concerned for rationally explaining (i.e, properly foreshadowing) every single piece of contradictory behavior. I assume further, since it's only brought up by Evatrice that once, that issues of "Why did character X do this silly thing?" are never a main theme in future writings, either. Currently on the mind - Shkanon shenanigans in EP6.

Actions that don't seem to make sense, and golden truth everywhere. It's just interesting to me because in the Question Arcs, Battler spent alot of time trying to reason out these things, whereas Will's solutions of only deciphering the specific Twilight Tricks leave those kinda of questions to a sort of "Well, whatever fills in the blank best for you."

I dunno. It just feels like we'd be an eternity trying to reach a consensus on the depths of Genji's passive-aggressive multi-task-trolling.
The thing is, Shannon and Kanon are different from every other character. They're treated like fantasy/meta characters, and being Yasu's inventions, their "character" is whatever she defines them as.
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Old 2011-02-06, 07:00   Link #3012
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
To get to the meat of it, alot of things seem to happen, and when you question the motivations for a person's actions, well, we speculate, and some speculations are pretty good. But sometimes it has to be handwaved as "Well, that's what they decided to do. Because." I'd probably accept that fully if not for Evatrice's EP3 "LULZ BRAINWASHED WITH MY MAGIC" move against Kyrie.
Uh you mean why Kyrie left the guest house? If i remember correct there was foreshadowing when she talked to Hideyoshi i think even the ashtray was mentioned beforehand but even without it it was clear she was getting food to isolate Hideyoshi. The move was rationaly answered in the same EP with the cigarstump and the "I told her with my magic" was just a fantasy vs mystery move to checkmate Meta-Battler. At least in my opinion.
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Old 2011-02-06, 07:50   Link #3013
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You have this strange idea that I'm arguing against the idea of Yasu being the culprit for the first four games. I'm not, and you need to stop telling me what my position is.



There are no headless bodies in the First Twilight. I've provided evidence for the First Twilight to be faked. There is evidence of death fakery, and thus fake blood, and thus makeup.
So, are you saying that Yasu faked the first Twilight, but he's also the culprit for the first 4 games? This doesn't make any sense, can you explain your point clearly? Because i'm totally lost.





Quote:
That's retarded. Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa would never kill anyone because of money. Even if they were motivated by money, they know where the gold is. They can just grab some and run, or something.




You're treating Yasu and the servants as heartless human beings who go on mass murder sprees just because they can.
Then why did Yasu send moneys to their relatives? Actually, if she was planning an innocent Fake Murder Mystery there was no need to do something like that.


Quote:
He's not at fault for Yasu playing elaborate games of pretend with herself. She would have done that anyway; she did it to escape from bullying, and she was bullied at the orphanage too. If her narrative is reliable, she had Shannon as an imaginary friend before she even came to Rokkenjima.

Moreover, Yasu has the right to know who she really is. It's also not safe for her to be on the island with her identity exposed after Natsuhi tried to kill her. What the fuck is Genji supposed to do, here?
All that ever mattered to Genji was Kinzo.

If he had really cared Yasu happiness he would have given him to a normal family, and if she and Kinzo wanted to meet later he could arrange the thing.

There was no need to do that Epitaph thing because it's not like Kinzo could know if she solved that alone or not. He's a loyal servant fixated with loyalty devoted to the family head and he would go along with anything Kinzo said. How many times did he lie to Natsuhi and the others about Yasu when they asked him? Even in potentially dangerous situations?

Last edited by FirstTwilight; 2011-02-06 at 09:02.
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Old 2011-02-06, 10:05   Link #3014
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
They didn't search the room thoroughly. It could be lying around somewhere.

It could happen because after all, it was all in Yasu's writing.
If she shot herself in the head with a rifle, she wouldn't have been able to have a grip on it because of the actual length, and her arms fell to her side rather than landing on the dresser somewhere. So I find it hard to picture any kind of muscle spasm that could knock the gun a significant distance to either side.

Let me give an alternative scenario. Yasu was planning to fake the fourth through sixth twilights along with George and Gohda. However, while she was out of the room, they were murdered by Culprit X. When she discovered this, she was consumed with guilt, so she smashed the mirror in disgust with herself and then committed suicide by propping a stake up on the dresser and bashing her head against it the way Rika did in Watanagashi-hen.

Yasu could have committed suicide this way if she were the culprit too, but it doesn't actually require anyone in the room to be the murderer.
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Old 2011-02-06, 14:28   Link #3015
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So, are you saying that Yasu faked the first Twilight, but he's also the culprit for the first 4 games? This doesn't make any sense, can you explain your point clearly? Because i'm totally lost.
Well, it's pretty clear from their behavior that Shannon and Kanon are motivated by a meta-motive. They only kill so that someone else doesn't kill; they're scapegoats in the stories.

But a part of her also wants the truth to come out, so part of the real world slips through. Like the First Twilight being faked as part of her innocent murder game; it was only because she did this that the culprit did these Epitaph Twilight killings.

Quote:
Then why did Yasu send moneys to their relatives? Actually, if she was planning an innocent Fake Murder Mystery there was no need to do something like that.
You know this isn't true. She could've been sending people money as payment for their help in her murder-free, innocent plans. She could've been sending the money as reparations for murders that someone else did. Those are just two possibilities off the top of my head, I can probably think of more.

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All that ever mattered to Genji was Kinzo.
...And Yasu/Lion, who he acknowledges as the true master of the island once Kinzo dies. If Kinzo was all he cared about, he would've never felt disgust as Kinzo's actions and acted to protect Yasu from him.

Quote:
If he had really cared Yasu happiness he would have given him to a normal family, and if she and Kinzo wanted to meet later he could arrange the thing.
Genji felt that the happiest possibility for Yasu was for her to grow up on Rokkenjima, her true home. You can argue whether or not it was really the best thing for her, but it's irrelevant. GENJI thought it was necessary for her happiness. He's allowed to make mistakes while trying to do what he thinks is best, he's not all-knowing. He can't see Yasu's future and see "Oh, no, wait, her life will totally suck if I do this" and once she's been serving there for a long time, it's a bit too late to just boot her out; that'd make Yasu miserable anyway.

Quote:
There was no need to do that Epitaph thing because it's not like Kinzo could know if she solved that alone or not. He's a loyal servant fixated with loyalty devoted to the family head and he would go along with anything Kinzo said. How many times did he lie to Natsuhi and the others about Yasu when they asked him? Even in potentially dangerous situations?
Genji isn't going to lie if it's not necessary. No, he would not go along with anything Kinzo said; this is patently wrong. It's only an illusion that everyone in the characters assume is true, just like "Kinzo is a crazy magician."

He has very good reasons to lie about Yasu; his existence is not supposed to be known and bringing the subject up isn't wise during the actual murders. "Hey, Natsuhi, I know you're paranoid and trigger-happy, but you know that baby you tried to kill? It's alive and also the product of Kinzo raping his daughter he had with a mistress and also they're the proper head of the famil-OW WHY'D YOU SHOOT ME?"

The Epitaph was necessary in that it was "proof" of a miracle. Genji, by his own admission, left things up to fate to decide.
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Old 2011-02-06, 14:46   Link #3016
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If she shot herself in the head with a rifle, she wouldn't have been able to have a grip on it because of the actual length, and her arms fell to her side rather than landing on the dresser somewhere. So I find it hard to picture any kind of muscle spasm that could knock the gun a significant distance to either side.
I find it hard to picture that the killer never misses and that every wound is exactly where he or she wants it to be. But that's just one of those "things" in mystery fiction. If Beatrice wants to write up something like "Shannon shot herself with a gun in ep4 and the gun fell down the well," well, we'll have to go with that even knowing that there is a very good chance in the "real world" that something about that wouldn't work. Because it's not the real world.

A broader question is why Battler wouldn't look very hard, or what's up with Gohda's positioning.
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Old 2011-02-06, 16:10   Link #3017
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I find it hard to picture that the killer never misses and that every wound is exactly where he or she wants it to be. But that's just one of those "things" in mystery fiction. If Beatrice wants to write up something like "Shannon shot herself with a gun in ep4 and the gun fell down the well," well, we'll have to go with that even knowing that there is a very good chance in the "real world" that something about that wouldn't work. Because it's not the real world.

A broader question is why Battler wouldn't look very hard, or what's up with Gohda's positioning.
Still, I think this is very different to the well. The well and the fact that the shot appeared to rise up out of the well (especially in the anime) gives a good clue that the gun could've been hidden that way. Wheras in ep2... what kindof hint do we get that there's a hiding place for the gun?

It's not even something we need to accept for the mystery to work...
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Old 2011-02-06, 18:56   Link #3018
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A broader question is why Battler wouldn't look very hard, or what's up with Gohda's positioning.
Well, he stopped looking because Rosa told him to.
He started examining Shannon's corpse but was knocked away by Rosa. She said it would be best to wait for the police to arrive and leave the examination of the crimescene to the professionals.

This is still something that leads me to believe that Rosa actually at least knew something about the murders or Yasu's game during EP2. She was in the chapel and accepted Beatrice (the scene during the EP7 tea party is highly reminiscent of that) and later she was the one keeping Battler from closely examining Shannon or even the locked room she was in...
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Old 2011-02-06, 20:06   Link #3019
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The thing is, Shannon and Kanon are different from every other character. They're treated like fantasy/meta characters, and being Yasu's inventions, their "character" is whatever she defines them as.
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Originally Posted by winter 923 View Post
Uh you mean why Kyrie left the guest house? If i remember correct there was foreshadowing when she talked to Hideyoshi i think even the ashtray was mentioned beforehand but even without it it was clear she was getting food to isolate Hideyoshi. The move was rationaly answered in the same EP with the cigarstump and the "I told her with my magic" was just a fantasy vs mystery move to checkmate Meta-Battler. At least in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, it's pretty clear from their behavior that Shannon and Kanon are motivated by a meta-motive. They only kill so that someone else doesn't kill; they're scapegoats in the stories
This is part of the issue I have, I guess. The "meta-motive". The issue of why Kyrie left the guesthouse in EP3 implies to me that a meta-motive for wierd behavior is unacceptable. I certainly have to acknowledge that Shannon and Kanon are "different", especially because we can never know how deep the Shkanon-hole goes ... but it feels wierd to settle for people doing things for no reason in particular.

Of course, then I remember Erika's EP6 shenanigans, and my head explodes.
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Old 2011-02-06, 20:19   Link #3020
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This is part of the issue I have, I guess. The "meta-motive". The issue of why Kyrie left the guesthouse in EP3 implies to me that a meta-motive for wierd behavior is unacceptable. I certainly have to acknowledge that Shannon and Kanon are "different", especially because we can never know how deep the Shkanon-hole goes ... but it feels wierd to settle for people doing things for no reason in particular.
There's a difference between the reasons you're citing. You're comparing "Shannon and Kanon act this way to personify the guilt and martyrdom complex of Yasu/Clair", with "Kyrie did this because a witch made her do it."

Fantasy and Meta are not the same thing. I'm getting tired of having to explain this to people.
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