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Old 2010-08-18, 11:48   Link #301
MeoTwister5
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Final summaries for today. I need sleep.

This is from the first meeting with the Italian submarine crew to the discovery of the submarine's secret cargo

Spoiler for Summaries:


Honestly though once it was mentioned that the submarine had a secret cargo I could already tell with what this secret cargo was.
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Old 2010-08-18, 12:48   Link #302
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Spoiler for Beato diminution:
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Old 2010-08-18, 13:22   Link #303
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Dante Alighieri was from Florence. Probably fitting enough to place Beatrice there too, eh? And the RSI was up in the north, too.
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Old 2010-08-18, 13:49   Link #304
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Castiglioni looks like a north family name. She could be from Toscana or Lombardia (region where Milan is located), since Salò is near Brescia. Since Bice father was an RSI officier near to the Duce Mussolini, we can probably assume she was from north italy. That can be truth in the percentage of 60%, nothing more since we don't have any other clues about the precise location. But that's just a curiosity, nothing that can give us some useful lights on the mistery.
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Old 2010-08-18, 13:51   Link #305
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Italian wikipedia also supports the Lombardia Theory

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castiglioni

Quote:
Castiglioni è un diffusissimo cognome lombardo, relativo ad esempio a:

* Francesco Saverio Castiglioni - Papa Pio VIII
* fratelli Achille Castiglioni e Pier Giacomo Castiglioni - Architetti e designer
* Angelo e Alfredo Castiglioni - Archeologi, etnologi e antropologi
* Ettore Castiglioni (1908-1944), alpinista
* Giovanni Castiglioni - Fondatore della Cagiva
First line: "Castiglioni is a widespread family name on Lombardia ( so Milan's region)
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Old 2010-08-18, 14:55   Link #306
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Just my two cents after having finished it ^^;
Spoiler for EP7:
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Old 2010-08-18, 14:59   Link #307
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You can say this is true as much as you like. Heck, you can say the entire story I just showed you is true. You could perhaps even tell the whole story in red, if you'd like. Reds apply to the fictional/fragmentary/board stories, as we've known from the start. So why couldn't somebody say something is true? It's true to say that, in this story, things happened as depicted. Isn't that self-evident?
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Old 2010-08-18, 16:54   Link #308
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After all Maria said This story really happened!!.
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Old 2010-08-18, 17:00   Link #309
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It surprises me that I can't see anyone mentioning this, but Kyrie wouldn't be the main culprit anyway, right? Because they found the gold first, so the real murderer stops and someone else takes over? Like Eva in ep 3. Kyrie did it this time :P

Or Bern is just fucking with Ange...
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Old 2010-08-18, 17:19   Link #310
Oliver
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I still don't get why Kyrie starts murdering everyone.

The island will blow up in 24 hours. There is very little chance anyone will wander off outside the 1km blast radius during that time -- the only way that can possibly happen is if someone knows about the tunnels already. The most practical solution, therefore, would be to call, in particular, Battler somewhere, knock him out with a blow on the head, and hole up in the gold storage room, barricading it from inside - say, with that four-poster bed, or maybe, anything found inside the tunnels which are supposed to lead into the expansive military base. Just in case anyone else knows about the tunnels. When it blows up and Battler comes around, you can tell him a story how you heroically dragged him across the entire island, or something, he'll be an obedient son for the rest of his life. If you can cook up the story of heirship test to murder the cousins, you can cook up a story to convince Battler or keep him completely unaware.

Everyone on the surface will die on their own, why bother, risk resistance, dirty your hands? If you believe the bomb won't work, shooting anyone is absurd as evidence will not be concealed. If you believe the bomb will work, shooting anyone is pointless, as they die on their own anyway. I have advanced that argument before, and in the situation described in Ep7, it is eminently applicable, far more than in the usual unknown hypothetical that we are dealing with.

What's going on here?
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Old 2010-08-18, 17:24   Link #311
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I've also been thinking the same thing actually. The whole Family massacre in the Tea party was utterly unnecessary.
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Old 2010-08-18, 17:34   Link #312
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Indeed in any given arc anyone's death is unnecessary.

If culprit knows about the bomb - Hiding and wait for it to blow up is the best solution.
If the culprit doesn't know about the bomb - the murders will be ridiculously easy to solve on the cops gets there (if no bomb blew up) so it's senseless to do murders in such an odd fashion.

The way I see it something feels stupid in both case, it's likely we're missing a part of the solution to make sense out of "crazy anti-perfect murders" + "bomb explosion".

The only way I can see some sense is that this is all a game, and the rules of a game. You don't question if any given board game's rules and goals make much sense when you play it, but if you weren't aware it's a game you'd be confused.
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Old 2010-08-18, 17:47   Link #313
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Kyrie's words are also odd. Putting aside Ange, which we really don't know one way or the other how Kyrie feels about Ange, it is more her indifference about Rudolph that is suspicious. Hating Ange and using her as an 'anchor' for Rudolph is one thing. But even the most cold hearted person would be visibly upset that the person they have been dedicating 24+ years of their life to, 18 of which were spent 'in Hell' would be upset at that being crushed.

It was pointed out to me by Chrono that Kyrie might have been after the Ushiromiya family's wealth, but after thinking about that, I am not sure that makes sense. If that were true, I think after Rudolph got with Asumu, she wouldn't have kept going after him, especially not for 18 years. I think she would have found some other rich person. She's certainly intelligent enough to net other guys.
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:09   Link #314
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And still the question why Okonogi wanted Ange dead so bad and why he was able to drag the Sumaderas into all of this.
I'm still thinking if maybe Ange wasn't absent because of sickness, but because she was held hostage by somebody and Kyrie had to do what she did, because it was the only chance to save Ange. Considering her 'turning the chessboard over' logic, she would have also known, that the only way to get Eva to care for Ange in case Eva survived instead of herself, was to make her feel pity for Ange (because her own youth was messed up as well).

Somehow I think that there is a grain of truth regarding the fact that Kyrie commits murders, but I think there is more to it than just an elaborate plan to get her hands on the money.

The only thing still making me crazy is that the solution is not supossed to be horrible...please don't do a snuggly happy end. They made it fit more or less with Higurashi...but it would crush Umineko for me
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:26   Link #315
marebito
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What chounokoe said.

And considering why the murders happen if the bomb kills everyone anyway:
You have to keep in mind that it is indeed possible to get to Kuwadorian without the underground tunnels. Rosa proved this in the past and we also know that you are out of the explosion's range if you get there. So whoever really murders, s/he has to make sure noone leaves this range, which is likely to happen when suddenly the adults vanish or are found dead, even if nobody knows about the bomb it's just too risky for the culprit to let everyone walk around freely.
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:33   Link #316
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Nevermind all that, where the Hell did Battler go during the Tea Party? The last we see of him, he's wandering off toward the chapel. He never seems to get there. But there's nobody around to kill him, Rudolf doesn't intend to, Eva wouldn't want to (unless she thought him threatening, but even then she didn't seem too inclined after all the "accidents" and murders), it hardly seems like anyone else, even if alive, would desire his death.

So, uh... where was he? You can't just have the main character walk off and never be seen again!

Stranger still: Why not present to Ange that Battler joined his parents? Or is Battler's piece simply incapable of such an act (which I strongly believe)? That would have completely destroyed her. But then again, why she didn't notice nobody seemed to kill Battler is stranger still... hell, even if he had been shot, Eva survived it. I actually suspected as much might be possible from ep3 to 1998, though it's been pretty clear for a while that 1998 was unrelated.

Other mysteries:
  • Why would there be a hair trigger bomb in the universe where L[y/i/e]on exists?
  • Is Kinzo still alive in that 1986?
  • What happened to Kanon and Shannon? If Shkanon is true in any form, or Shannon or anyone else is Beatrice (and the adults don't recognize her, which they appear not to), what happens when Kyrie and Rudolf can't find the "missing" servant? Kyrie has no reason whatsoever to know anyone on the island is posing as two people. From her perspective, Kanon (or whoever) is unable to be found. A witness you can't find is going to be a major problem, but it never seems to even cross her mind... and this from a woman who didn't seem all that surprised that Eva survived.
  • Um... the stakes?
I don't think there will be an "everybody lives" happy ending, but if Bern is even halfway right in describing the facts of the Tea Party as accurate, Battler is almost certainly still alive. Given that the next episode would parallel ep4 and is "for Ange," her "even if I can't get that miracle, I'd settle for just one to come home" ending seems like it's in the cards.
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:38   Link #317
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marebito View Post
So whoever really murders, s/he has to make sure noone leaves this range, which is likely to happen when suddenly the adults vanish or are found dead, even if nobody knows about the bomb it's just too risky for the culprit to let everyone walk around freely.
If you do think so, you need to also answer why it never happened in any of the games so far presented until their end. Nobody was keeping anybody locked up. In fact, hiding in locked rooms was always the answer, even when the existence of Kuwadorian was publicised. Unless it's Kanon who runs away in this manner, but then you're breaking a different premise offered by Ep7.

Obviously, only those who ever see the trigger even suspect there might be a bomb, so there is no need to worry.
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:40   Link #318
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And they never would have seen the trigger, in this interpretation, were they not told. It's completely non-obvious.

I think a broader question is whether it was ever set on the 4th, then turned off. It's clear that it had to be inactive, because it's triggered at 00:00. That means it has to have been off at midnight on the 5th, then has to have been activated thereafter.
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:52   Link #319
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Maybe the point of the murders is to kill off everybody besides the culprit(s). They don't know about the bomb, and they're confident they can escape legal repercussions. The murderers plan to leave the country before the victims' families decide that there's something wrong with the absence and lack of contact with their extended family.

The murderer(s) may also feel that they can destroy whatever evidence they left that could lead to their arrest(s), by burning down the mansion and guesthouse or some such.

Actually, I just realized that the murderers would have to explain what happened to Captain Kawabata. They could get around that by hiding their own boat on the island, maybe with the help of the servants. Provided they could pilot it, the culprits could leave after the storm.
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Old 2010-08-18, 18:53   Link #320
Oliver
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...as a side note, how to effectively ensure no witnesses in the starting situation from the epitaph solution and adults dead without killing anyone manually, or at least, with limiting yourself to only one more victim:
  1. Go to Kinzo's study. Destroy the autolock release button.
  2. Call everyone in by phone about an important announcement, you solved the epitaph after all, so you're the new head and you're about to say things will be different starting today.
  3. When everybody is in, leave the room with your accomplices. Kick the door until it clicks.
  4. Gloat for a few hours until the inhabitants despair and turn to strong drink. That part is just for fun.
If you're really anal about it you can also destroy the gutter outside so nobody can climb down.

You only need to kill at most Genji to do it, and that only if Natsuhi is not keeping the key on her person.
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