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Old 2011-02-26, 15:13   Link #3201
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
If she didn't plan to use the bomb, why the message bottles? If she did plan to use it, why the mystery game? Clair says she gave everything up to fate. So if nobody solves the mystery or the epitaph, then boom. Something's still wrong with that, and I was supposed to say something but don't remember anymore.
I was thinking that the plan to bomb was someone else's and that she simply accepted that would happen. For one reason or another she goes along with it or submits to it.

However, she then still does her own things, like the fake murder mystery for Battler's sake and the message bottles, knowing that in the end she won't survive.
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Old 2011-02-26, 18:20   Link #3202
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I always assumed the certainty was the secret gold - it was described as a powerful magic that made people do anything you wanted them to, I believe. It's an assurance that Yasu can pretty much buy out anybody's cooperation.

Forgive me, but most of what you're saying here is pretty much repeating things we were blatantly told in EP7 or TIPS or something.


On an unrelated note, I've had a few thought lately:

(1). Lambda saying that Beato "really knows what it means to be the main character" in EP6. While of course this refers to her theatricality and penchant for dramatics, I suddenly thought "Does Beato in the Meta-World aso know that she's a character in the story WE'RE reading?" More meta, mind blown, etc.
About the gold being compared to Lambda's power, it is a good observation, but I remember it was said that Lambdadelta made Beato a temporary witch for two days, which she then expanded to infinity. So I guess the gold isn't actually what's referred to in the text, as it has been around longer. Same could be said about the bomb as well... So anything except the typhoon which lasts two days?

And about repeating things, you are of course forgiven, as I do realize it myself. I guess I was trying to use some things as lead-ups to speculation, but I'll try to cut down the futilities.

Beatrice knowing she's in a story is probably most easily explained if the meta-world is part of the message bottle narratives (I think it is implied to be). Which is not many steps away from us.


Could the final letter in EP1 that is only read by Natsuhi be about "the man from 19 years ago"/Lion? It might explain Natsuhi not wanting to disclose it to others and facing the one who "claims to succeed the Ushiromiya family" alone. And the bloody handmarks on Natsuhi's door in both EP1 and 2? They could be an extra prank by Yasu to show her hatred towards Natsuhi for throwing her to such fate. Little hints of Natsuhi's involvement early on? Difficulties with having a child, Fukuin being an orphanage for children abandoned by their parents...
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-02-26 at 18:31.
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Old 2011-02-26, 19:11   Link #3203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Beatrice knowing she's in a story is probably most easily explained if the meta-world is part of the message bottle narratives (I think it is implied to be). Which is not many steps away from us.
The question is, why would the meta-world be included in the message bottle narratives? It pretty much makes no sense at several points of the story.
I think it was more or less a nod to how we are placed on the same level as witches like Featherine during the story, seeing the whole event like a play and not as a real life tragedy.

Quote:
Could the final letter in EP1 that is only read by Natsuhi be about "the man from 19 years ago"/Lion? It might explain Natsuhi not wanting to disclose it to others and facing the one who "claims to succeed the Ushiromiya family" alone. And the bloody handmarks on Natsuhi's door in both EP1 and 2? They could be an extra prank by Yasu to show her hatred towards Natsuhi for throwing her to such fate.
That Natsuhi faced the man from 19 years ago/Lion at the end of EP1 is pretty clear I think. She comments how she would have never wanted to believe that somebody like that actually existed and how this duel would decide who would truly inherit the title of head of the Ushiromiya family.
It's quite possible that either the handprints on the door were a way to punish Natsuhi for abandoning her as a child or maybe it truly was just an act to keep the charade of an actuall witch going...
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Old 2011-02-26, 20:53   Link #3204
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Did Battler ever see that door, by the way? It might be a total Fantasy.
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Old 2011-02-26, 21:30   Link #3205
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Again, although we use the word "personalities" as shorthand, I don't think that's very ... accurate. As you say, they're more like "roles" or "characters" - otherwise you might say something like "Sakutarou is one of Maria's personalities", and that's just NO.
Why? Sakutaro's a character isn't he? Just one Maria created instead?

This TIP has been used to support Shkanon in the past.

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Old 2011-02-26, 22:45   Link #3206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Did Battler ever see that door, by the way? It might be a total Fantasy.
Basically every Episode among the first 4 is highly doubtable in that department.
Let's consider what Battler, considering he is claimed to be the detective and therefore he cannot perceive wrongly, actually saw:

Episode 1:
Spoiler for for length:


Well...at least Episode 1 gave us some things, even though I think it shows how the central elements are never really under supervision of the detective.
It's not as bad as Episode 4, which basically has Battler in one room during most of the game, but still it shows that we definitely need to consider what we are shown, even in the non-detective scenes.
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Old 2011-02-26, 22:57   Link #3207
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Did Battler ever see that door, by the way? It might be a total Fantasy.
Not in episode 1. He does in the next episode though.
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Old 2011-02-26, 23:34   Link #3208
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I think Natsuhi does mention the door at one point, though.
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Old 2011-02-26, 23:54   Link #3209
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Why? Sakutaro's a character isn't he? Just one Maria created instead?

This TIP has been used to support Shkanon in the past.
Well I'll be adarned - I somehow missed that.
I guess what I meant was, I doubt Yasu literally has clinical DID or whatever. Of course, I don't claim to know much about DID, but I feel pretty confident that Yasu still holds her own mental reigns over these ... people of variable existence.
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Old 2011-02-27, 00:08   Link #3210
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I guess what I meant was, I doubt Yasu literally has clinical DID or whatever. Of course, I don't claim to know much about DID, but I feel pretty confident that Yasu still holds her own mental reigns over these ... people of variable existence.
Well I pretty much completely agree with that.
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Old 2011-02-27, 00:21   Link #3211
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Indeed. Ontop of it, she has complete memory of what all her identities do, and, well, someone with DID can't just rewrite their characters as if they were characters.
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Old 2011-02-27, 04:56   Link #3212
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Indeed. Ontop of it, she has complete memory of what all her identities do, and, well, someone with DID can't just rewrite their characters as if they were characters.
Indeed, is role-playing, not DID.

But whether it is DID or not, we cannot deny the truth that Yasu mind is pretty fucked up.
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Old 2011-02-27, 05:21   Link #3213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The question is, why would the meta-world be included in the message bottle narratives? It pretty much makes no sense at several points of the story.
I think it was more or less a nod to how we are placed on the same level as witches like Featherine during the story, seeing the whole event like a play and not as a real life tragedy.

That Natsuhi faced the man from 19 years ago/Lion at the end of EP1 is pretty clear I think. She comments how she would have never wanted to believe that somebody like that actually existed and how this duel would decide who would truly inherit the title of head of the Ushiromiya family.
It's quite possible that either the handprints on the door were a way to punish Natsuhi for abandoning her as a child or maybe it truly was just an act to keep the charade of an actuall witch going...
I wonder what explains Beato's behaviour in EP3 if there's no meta-world, as then there's no Meta-Battler to show good habits to. It would seem quite non-sensical. Unless Beatrice goes to the humans' side because she has lost her position as the Golden Witch, or in the message bottle narrative, there's just Beatrice in the start and Eva-Beatrice in the end, with no interference from Beatrice during the last events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Indeed, is role-playing, not DID.

But whether it is DID or not, we cannot deny the truth that Yasu mind is pretty fucked up.
I agree, unless someone says she was crazy from the get-go and brought it upon herself.
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Old 2011-02-27, 07:49   Link #3214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I wonder what explains Beato's behaviour in EP3 if there's no meta-world, as then there's no Meta-Battler to show good habits to. It would seem quite non-sensical. Unless Beatrice goes to the humans' side because she has lost her position as the Golden Witch, or in the message bottle narrative, there's just Beatrice in the start and Eva-Beatrice in the end, with no interference from Beatrice during the last events.
Well, there are two things I would consider about EP3.
1) It was written by somebody else and is already among the narratives that were created out of the two bottle letters that reached the shore.
2) We have to look if there are actually any passages which are impossible to include without the meta-world. I think there are actually pretty few of those, because Beatrice's disgust with Eva-Beatrice's methods becomes clear from the start.
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Old 2011-02-27, 11:04   Link #3215
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Another thing to keep in mind is that EP3-4's meta worlds don't make sense unless the Turn message bottle also had a meta world, since there are back-references. You could say that Hachijou tacked the meta onto Turn after the fact, but then where did she get the information about Beato's personality?

Although... Maybe something like that explains why Turn's Meta-Battler didn't observe any of the fantasy scenes until the tea party? I don't think we ever got an explanation for that bit of strangeness.
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Old 2011-02-27, 12:27   Link #3216
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1st game, 6th-8th twilights: "The blind girl sings a song of illusion." I got the impression from the original wording that Maria's singing itself was the illusion, namely that she wasn't actually singing continuously between the phone call and when everyone burst into the room.
The illusion of a closed room is as follows: The door is locked, no one could have entered. If we assume Yasu is still alive, having faked his death as Kanon by the help of Nanjo it becomes painfully simple: Yasu entered the room, acted as Beatrice, told Maria to face the wall and sing and then killed the rest, exited and locked the door.
The reason she's called blind is that Maria only recognises people by the way they act, and thinks of Beatrice as a witch who wouldn't enter the room using a key. So even though she probably saw Shanon or Kanon enter the room she was blind to this for this person acted as -and was therefore for Maria- Beatrice.
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Old 2011-02-27, 16:45   Link #3217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos of Crows View Post
The illusion of a closed room is as follows: The door is locked, no one could have entered. If we assume Yasu is still alive, having faked his death as Kanon by the help of Nanjo it becomes painfully simple: Yasu entered the room, acted as Beatrice, told Maria to face the wall and sing and then killed the rest, exited and locked the door.
The reason she's called blind is that Maria only recognises people by the way they act, and thinks of Beatrice as a witch who wouldn't enter the room using a key. So even though she probably saw Shanon or Kanon enter the room she was blind to this for this person acted as -and was therefore for Maria- Beatrice.
On the contrary I think the illusion does not refer to the closed room (that is not even a closed room, since there are many passpartout free all over the house and also, Maria has no problems in seeing Shannon or Kanon in place of Beatrice, since Beatrice can "take control of them" as said from Maria to Will in EP7), but -as textually said- to Maria's song. In fact many people think that the purpose of the phone call is to let the people hear Maria's singing voice, but I do not, for two main reasons: (1) Natsuhi absolutely does not want to answer the phone and when Battler says "if you don't do, I'm gonna do it", she doesn't let him do it and does it himself and (2) because Natsuhi spend a long time saying "hello, hello". My opinion is that the 19 years ago ago child (Shkanontrice) treated Natsuhi through the phone (obliging her -through a blackmail- to say hello as if she doesn't hear nothing) and that is why Natsuhi after went out of the parlor and got killed. Maria's song is nothing but an illusion thought to blackmail and kill Natsuhi and make the people in Kinzo's study come out.
This thank to Natsuhi's afraidness about Jessica knowing the truth about the 19 years ago child and so on.
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Old 2011-02-27, 17:08   Link #3218
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I think you guys are over-complicating a simple room, as the solution has been readily apparent since Lambda's red's at the end of EP4. Well, I'd say it's definitely among the easiest from Beato's game's.

"Illusion of the blind girl's song". So either her 'blindness' or the song was an illusion. Kanon-culprit-san enters room, asks Maria to sing, kills Gensawajo. The proposal of the above poster is way too complicated - the text said Natsuhi was hesitant, not that she fought tooth and nail against answering. She willingly handed the phone to Battler when he asked for it, and he also heard the singing. I don't see the need or purpose of recording devices, secret blackmails, etc.

The blindness is an illusion because, c'mon, "Nope, guys, I didn't hear a THING." and all that Maria-nonsense. Because it's Maria, we kinda have to believe in her sincerity, but if you really think she literally saw and heard nothing...
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Old 2011-02-27, 17:51   Link #3219
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Was it ever declared that they were dead in the first place? I forget whether Battler did a proper close up inspection on them. I think he just kinda rushed over to Maria after a glance and they all started to question her. I don't think there was any red declaring them dead at the end of EP4 either...

So really, Maria could really have just turned around and heard nothing. Gensawajo probably just took out some slices of salami and tomato sauce, lied down and that's it.

And to keep things going, the letter is left for Natsuhi... and... who was it that notices her gone? George? ... Apparently it's George in the manga... I just checked.


Also one thing to keep in mind is Natsuhi was already recruited to act as the Key in the game, so she is in on some of the what appears to be suspicious actions throughout EP1. Although when she starts realizing that all is not going according to plan is debatable, I'd think she was in on the placing of the letter and the whole setup to get the 4 people kicked out of the study. (What the "Key" is is explained in my signature.)

I tend to think by the final shootout she started to act on her own though, though I can't be sure...
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Old 2011-02-27, 17:59   Link #3220
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And of course, the three were killed by other people!
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