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Old 2011-03-01, 00:08   Link #3281
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In Episode6 it is said that Ange appeared on Hachijou's second novel in other words EP4. However we don't know if that means that the whole story from Ange's perspective of EP4 was just Hachijou's fiction.
And then again why should we trust EP6's 1998? Maybe that's the fiction.
That's the problem with meta-fiction when you try to analyse it from a point of linear storytelling. We have not only fiction-in-fiction but also fiction-in-fiction-in-fiction or fiction-about-fiction-in-fiction within Umineko...it's pretty similar to a novel called City of Glass by Paul Auster.

We start with the message bottles which tell the story of Rokkenjima within the story of Umineko. This is fiction in fiction.
But then later we get the fact that some of the fictional events (1998 Ange in EP4) in one part were only the fiction of another character (Featherine). That fiction is not really part of the fictional universe created by the first two Episodes but is just adjecent to it.
And then we have the meta-world which discusses events that are happening in a world that is a fictional recreation of a world that is observed by somebody whose quests are fictionalized by an author who is not the author of that fictional recreation...

I'm not saying my answers to that problem are correct, but I think it's a lot more complex than just saying "Hachij˘ wrote EP4, therefore those are not Ange's exploits".
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:23   Link #3282
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How the existence of an old military base directly connects to that?
Why was an old military base STOCKED WITH EXPLOSIVES left to be bought by a private citizen?

Quote:
That never happens. Eva tells Ange that she made her fortune by herself she never tells her that she was giving her the gold of the witch.
"I'll give you the cursed gold" doesn't ring a bell?
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:31   Link #3283
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Why was an old military base STOCKED WITH EXPLOSIVES left to be bought by a private citizen?
Are you doing that on purpose?
Why a military base must necessarily be stocked with 900 tons of explosives? Who in his right mind would think that an abandoned military base would be definitely stocked with that?

There is no need to deny the existence of the military base itself.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"I'll give you the cursed gold" doesn't ring a bell?
She doesn't say so, she said "I'll leave behind the cursed gold". Which is what she did, since she never got it in the first place.
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:36   Link #3284
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Quote:
Are you doing that on purpose?
Why a military base must necessarily be stocked with 900 tons of explosives? Who in his right mind would think that an abandoned military base would be definitely stocked with that?

There is no need to deny the existence of the military base itself.
"....Um. It blew up because of...lightning hitting the fertilizer. Or something."

They're gonna have to deny SOMETHING, and there's no public evidence for the existence of such a military base outside of stories saying that there was a witch and Eva is dead and also there might have been bunny girls.

Quote:
She doesn't say so, she said "I'll leave behind the cursed gold". Which is what she did, since she never got it in the first place.
That's not what my patch says; must be outdated. It's really a tangential point anyway.
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:43   Link #3285
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"....Um. It blew up because of...lightning hitting the fertilizer. Or something."

They're gonna have to deny SOMETHING, and there's no public evidence for the existence of such a military base outside of stories saying that there was a witch and Eva is dead and also there might have been bunny girls.
Yeah but my point is that we don't know! Maybe you are right and they denied the military base completely... but maybe not... it's not unthinkable especially if there are too many witnesses about it. They found Kuwadorian after all, so who says that they didn't find the military base as well?


And yeah it seems quite logic to think that the government would want to hide such an incredible blunder, but then what kind of excuse they came up with for that explosion?
Again we don't know.
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Old 2011-03-01, 01:10   Link #3286
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"....Um. It blew up because of...lightning hitting the fertilizer. Or something."

They're gonna have to deny SOMETHING, and there's no public evidence for the existence of such a military base outside of stories saying that there was a witch and Eva is dead and also there might have been bunny girls.
Well of course there's also slander and with all the Eva hate the following is not out of the question. "Yeah we had a base there so what? You guys know about that Kinzo guy? He was a liar and a cheat. He stole the island from us under our nose when the Americans came, then he illegally bought a bunch of explosives and then somebody blew it up. How he got the money for that I have no idea. But remember he's a cheater and he's rich therefore he must be evil"
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Old 2011-03-01, 01:13   Link #3287
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Well, if the military base WASN'T found (and considering it wasn't brought up until EP7), they could claim any such thing like a terrorist bombing or a volcano eruption or whatever the hell.

Also, I just checked Rondo of Witch and Reasonng and compared it to my PC edition in both English and Japanese.

The ???? describes Eva inheriting the fortune of Rokkenjima and building it like Kinzo did, showing the gold backround multiple times, and then when deciding how to torment Ange after she's gone, Eva says she'll leave Ange the fortune she's amassed and...well lemme transcribe her words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Ushiromiya
"The cursed mass of gold and the inheritance of the Ushiromiya fortune, as well as...as well as...the name of the Golden Witch, Beatrice,...I will give it to you now. Enjoy your insane, twisted life fitting for the name of the witch!"
So yea, I was pretty much entirely correct.
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Old 2011-03-01, 01:36   Link #3288
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In Episode6 it is said that Ange appeared on Hachijou's second novel in other words EP4. However we don't know if that means that the whole story from Ange's perspective of EP4 was just Hachijou's fiction.
And then again why should we trust EP6's 1998? Maybe that's the fiction.
We definitely shouldn't trust EP6's 1998 because of Ange noticing that her memory had been edited. The question is, does EP4's appearance as a forgery in EP6 mean that it's also a fiction, or was it referencing real events as if they were fictional?

So we might have [Parent-world [Alliance] [Dawn]], or else just [Alliance [Dawn]], but in either case Dawn can't be "more real" than Alliance is.
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Old 2011-03-01, 02:28   Link #3289
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A simpler explanation would be that Alliance details (if it details 1998 at all) a world similar to the world the actual Ange lives in, but not that world itself (that is, a very closely-modeled fiction).
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Old 2011-03-01, 08:35   Link #3290
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So yea, I was pretty much entirely correct.
Let's even accept that Eva said so and that it wasn't just a metaphor of her riches. How is that an evidence of the gold existing from the 1998 perspective? Does anything that Eva says in that situation makes any sense?

Did Ange actually see the gold at all?

How the hell Eva was able to retrieve it after the incident?

I'll keep my claim that there's no evidence of the gold's existence from the 1998's perspective.
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Old 2011-03-01, 09:03   Link #3291
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Pointless argument is pointless. The Tea party tells us the gold blows up in the explosion, and with the location of the gold being the chapel, which was destroyed also, that's very, very, likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'm not saying my answers to that problem are correct, but I think it's a lot more complex than just saying "Hachij˘ wrote EP4, therefore those are not Ange's exploits".
There's a classsic Tolkein studies argument whenever a silly idea comes up that says Aragorn isn't wearing pants, because he's never described as having any and it asks you to prove otherwise by citing the book. I don't know how that's relevant, but I felt like mentioning it.
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Old 2011-03-01, 09:28   Link #3292
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Pointless argument is pointless. The Tea party tells us the gold blows up in the explosion, and with the location of the gold being the chapel, which was destroyed also, that's very, very, likely.
Clearly, the gold was thrown clear of the blast, and Eva wandered around with a grabby arm and a shopping cart plucking it all out of the debris.
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Old 2011-03-01, 12:07   Link #3293
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Was it ever declared that they were dead in the first place? I forget whether Battler did a proper close up inspection on them. I think he just kinda rushed over to Maria after a glance and they all started to question her. I don't think there was any red declaring them dead at the end of EP4 either...

So really, Maria could really have just turned around and heard nothing. Gensawajo probably just took out some slices of salami and tomato sauce, lied down and that's it.

And to keep things going, the letter is left for Natsuhi... and... who was it that notices her gone? George? ... Apparently it's George in the manga... I just checked.


Also one thing to keep in mind is Natsuhi was already recruited to act as the Key in the game, so she is in on some of the what appears to be suspicious actions throughout EP1. Although when she starts realizing that all is not going according to plan is debatable, I'd think she was in on the placing of the letter and the whole setup to get the 4 people kicked out of the study. (What the "Key" is is explained in my signature.)

I tend to think by the final shootout she started to act on her own though, though I can't be sure...
Nope, I personally think the letter was put from Maria... Simply because there are two cases in which a letter sudden appears from nowhere and in both Maria is present nontheless one of the suspects. And... I'm almost sure Natsuhi has nothing to do at all with the various murders/plans...
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Old 2011-03-01, 13:06   Link #3294
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I honestly still think that the final letter in Episode 1 never existed. We have only Maria's word that it existed in the first place, and there are a number of points against it:
- The letter disappeared from Natsuhi's body.
- George, Jessica, and Battler walked right past it without noticing it.
- Maria wasn't in a good position to see Natsuhi read the letter.
- With previous letters, rather than opening them herself (which required her to set aside her gun), Natsuhi had somebody else open and read them.

Remember the letter in Episode 5? It seems impossible for it to appear, and the usual explanation is that there was no letter; there is no confirmation that it existed. I think that was intended as a clue to this event.
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Old 2011-03-01, 13:13   Link #3295
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Let's even accept that Eva said so and that it wasn't just a metaphor of her riches. How is that an evidence of the gold existing from the 1998 perspective? Does anything that Eva says in that situation makes any sense?

Did Ange actually see the gold at all?

How the hell Eva was able to retrieve it after the incident?

I'll keep my claim that there's no evidence of the gold's existence from the 1998's perspective.
She describes it separately from the actual fortune, though, what the fuck?

"I will give you this terrible weapon, ALONG WITH THIS APPLE THAT REPRESENTS LOSS OF INNOCENCE DO YOU GET THE SYMBOLISM I HOPE YOU DO I'M DYING."

Quote:
Clearly, the gold was thrown clear of the blast, and Eva wandered around with a grabby arm and a shopping cart plucking it all out of the debris.
It's never actually said to be under the chapel, technically, is it? Just that the tunnel leads to it, and for all we know, the gold is right under Kuwadorian. And since there's no explosives in the actual gold room, the bombs could be any theoretical distance away so long as they're wired to the clock switch.

Quote:
The Tea party tells us the gold blows up in the explosion
Where?
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Old 2011-03-01, 13:27   Link #3296
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I think Eva just sortof assumes the gold will blow up. She may be mistaken.
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Old 2011-03-01, 14:22   Link #3297
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Where?
Twice.

Beatrice explains that there is a underground passage in the VIP Room they're in that leads to a military base 2 kilometers away that will escape the blast. By that logic the VIP room with the gold will not escape the blast.

Later Rosa asks about what will happen to the gold if Eva blows up the island for an explosion accident and accuses her of wanting to blow it all away. So Eva suggests carrying the gold to the military base, which of course is unrealistic as well. And it continues after that.

If she's talking about cursed gold in episode 4 it's probably from the key card.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-03-01 at 14:43.
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Old 2011-03-01, 14:50   Link #3298
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Oh, I thought you were talking about EP3.

You should know that I don't trust EP7's tea party any more than Satan's left nut.
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Old 2011-03-01, 16:53   Link #3299
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The teaparty is likely to be mostly true, but the way the relatives act was probably picked by Bernkastel to hurt Ange and Lion as much as possible, as the whole point of showing what happened seems to be to make Ange think negatively of her parents (which Battler is against with all that loving memory thing of his) and to crush Lion's hopes of leading a succesful life. "I lost to Beatrice so I'm going to screw you -her hope of a better life-" by making you think there's no way for you to survive. I see no point in questioning the scene in the VIP room, but I also won't buy it as what happened on RPrime. The scene however acts as a hint that things might have gone horribly wrong.
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Old 2011-03-01, 17:36   Link #3300
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Fair enough, but for the very reasons you brought up, I wouldn't trust a single word of it as gospel like I would other parts.
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