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Old 2011-11-15, 01:40   Link #3501
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She need not have survived the incident, though it does seem like Lion is a fantasy of hers she had. A daydream. Perhaps she write it down somewhere, or perhaps EP7 is purely meta and was never written down in Rokkenjima Prime.

Or maybe whoever wrote EP7 made it up, including the "Lion" name being given to Yasu.
Well what you said is possible. But still i think who ever wrote that Ep knows about the truth about Rokkenjima.

Well thing that bother me. I don't get the part where they talked about " Who killed Beatrice of 1986?" well what's the point of all of that? Will told us that the culprit is the live cat But how can a cat be a culprit? That impossible.

Also Is this implying that the Actor who played Beatrice just killed the character off and didn't really died at all?

Now im starting to think that The whole epitapt murder was Yasu's way to kill the three Characters Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice so that she can start a new life. But things never went according to plan.
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Old 2011-11-15, 02:10   Link #3502
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It's all a metaphor. What it means is that Beatrice doesn't exist because Lion does. Lion has a happy life and has no need to pretend to be a witch. The Live Cat/Dead Cat thing was a Schroedinger's Cat reference.
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Old 2011-11-15, 02:58   Link #3503
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Now im starting to think that The whole epitapt murder was Yasu's way to kill the three Characters Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice so that she can start a new life. But things never went according to plan.
This is not a bad guess if we look at Episode 6 closely, but why kill all three? One of them could have a chance at love.

In general, though, I don't think it's possible to make sense of Umineko without being able to hold conflicting interpretations in mind simultaneously. An uncharitable reader could call this a cheap dodge, a Devil's Proof by Ryu against any possible plot holes.

But I'd rather think of it as one of those optical illusions where you can see either a vase or two people kissing, depending on which parts of the picture you look at.
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Old 2011-11-15, 03:30   Link #3504
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That's possible. But I'm still not convinced that Yasu planned to murder anyone at all. She just wanted one of her loves to bear fruit, meaning the other two characters would "die", but the Tea Party makes it pretty clear that since everything happens in Lion's world, then Yasu is PROBABLY innocent.
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Old 2011-11-15, 04:00   Link #3505
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Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt View Post
This is not a bad guess if we look at Episode 6 closely, but why kill all three? One of them could have a chance at love.
Remember from EP2 that Beato didn't think Shannon's and Kanon's relationships would work out in the long term. Now that we have more information, we can tell that it was because Shannon couldn't bear children for George and Kanon wasn't a boy. Maybe these weren't really insurmountable obstacles to love, but to Yasu, they at least seemed insurmountable.

If you look at her mindset before she found out Battler was coming, maybe she really did think about just abandoning everything. And then Battler showed up, and she decided to give him one chance to earn her forgiveness and keep her from leaving.

I wonder if she was originally thinking that she could pass off Kinzo's burnt corpse as her own.
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Old 2011-11-15, 04:23   Link #3506
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's all a metaphor. What it means is that Beatrice doesn't exist because Lion does. Lion has a happy life and has no need to pretend to be a witch. The Live Cat/Dead Cat thing was a Schroedinger's Cat reference.
you're talking about lion being the culprit and I know that. Will found two cuprits the dead cat and the live cat. Lion was the dead cat and the live cat was yasu
i think. "only the actors can kill the character" Beatrice was a character so the culprit must be a actor . We only know one great actor in Rokkenjima and it was Yasu.

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Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt View Post
This is not a bad guess if we look at Episode 6 closely, but why kill all three? One of them could have a chance at love.

In general, though, I don't think it's possible to make sense of Umineko without being able to hold conflicting interpretations in mind simultaneously. An uncharitable reader could call this a cheap dodge, a Devil's Proof by Ryu against any possible plot holes.

But I'd rather think of it as one of those optical illusions where you can see either a vase or two people kissing, depending on which parts of the picture you look at.
I think there's a reason to it. First of all, the character Kanon have the weakest love in the three so he lost to shannon. his character disappeared. Second shannon's love was powerful but she lost to Beatrice since Beatrice's love was nurtured for seven years and its so powerful that she felt like she have torns in her chest. shannon's character disappeared .
lastly, i think Beatrice disappeared because Battler didn't remembered her.

This is the part that i just want to believe that happened in the series.

I'll assume that Battler and Beatrice survive that incident. Battler happened to fall out of the boat because of his fear of falling then somehow got an amnesia when he hit some rocks.

I think at some point in time Yasu killed the Beatrice persona and change to something else. She then wrote two stories and place it in the bottles after the incident. She gave it to a fisherman and paid him with money to lie how he found the message bottle. Then after that she help Toya find the truth by helping him write stories based on the two message bottles. When Battler finally realize the truth It was to late to apologize because beatrice was already dead. Who knows Maybe Yasu was the one who gave voice for Beatrice in Their forgeries and Killed the character off after what happened in Ep4.
Now something came to mind. I think in EP7 Will was the representation of Toya. That's why Battler doesn't know about the existence of Ep7.

This is kinda stupid but its possible that this happened in the end.

Sorry Off topic there.

Anyway, Why are you guys thinking that Yasu Died on the Rokkenjima? I don't get it.
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Old 2011-11-15, 04:42   Link #3507
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That's possible. But I'm still not convinced that Yasu planned to murder anyone at all. She just wanted one of her loves to bear fruit, meaning the other two characters would "die", but the Tea Party makes it pretty clear that since everything happens in Lion's world, then Yasu is PROBABLY innocent
Er, this is exactly what I meant. I was using "kill" in the metaphorical sense. I'm not sure what other sense it can have when applied to certain characters. In particular, I meant it in the same sense that George would have to metaphorically "kill" his mother.

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Remember from EP2 that Beato didn't think Shannon's and Kanon's relationships would work out in the long term. Now that we have more information, we can tell that it was because Shannon couldn't bear children for George and Kanon wasn't a boy. Maybe these weren't really insurmountable obstacles to love, but to Yasu, they at least seemed insurmountable.

If you look at her mindset before she found out Battler was coming, maybe she really did think about just abandoning everything. And then Battler showed up, and she decided to give him one chance to earn her forgiveness and keep her from leaving.
Also possible. Alternative: Yasu's story is metaphorical and Shannon/Kanon was a servant who daydreamed about being the heir of the family, and was bisexual and conflicted. In this case, a choice would be possible and all of the lover's duels in Ep 6 make a little more sense. The only evidence I can provide for this claim, besides te duels, is "argument from prior probability." Simple explanations (without surgeries and vanishing heirs and so on) are better than wild ones.

Yasu's story is so full of narrow chances and contrivances that it would take a TON of evidence to make it more plausible than "Shannon/Kanon had an uncertain gender identity, a good head for riddles and mysteries, and an active imagination." Bern's narration is not a ton of evidence.

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"only the actors can kill the character" Beatrice was a character so the culprit must be a actor . We only know one great actor in Rokkenjima and it was Yasu.
If Beatrice is just a character and we're speaking metaphorically, surely she can be killed by anyone who assumes her role. And why should that someone have to literally be on Rokkenjima? For that matter, there are a lot of really good actors on Rokkenjima.

Also, see above reply. "Dead" has a lot of possible meanings here.

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Anyway, Why are you guys thinking that Yasu Died on the Rokkenjima? I don't get it.
Well, if the Ange segments are even remotely truthful, there was only one survivor, Eva.

Yasu could have faked death, but we have almost nothing that really suggests that as a clue, besides wishful thinking or magic. Bottles could have been tossed out before the incident, after all. Also, it's unclear how Yasu could have gotten off the island, and if they lived in Kuwadorian, well, that's another can of worms. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's exactly the kind of complicated hypothesis that needs evidence to back it up.

Even "Yasu never existed" strikes me as more plausible than "Yasu is alive."

Last edited by WitchOfDoubt; 2011-11-15 at 04:53.
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Old 2011-11-15, 05:40   Link #3508
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Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt View Post


If Beatrice is just a character and we're speaking metaphorically, surely she can be killed by anyone who assumes her role. And why should that someone have to literally be on Rokkenjima? For that matter, there are a lot of really good actors on Rokkenjima.
i am actually talking about what Will told us in Ep7 that Beatrice was a character that can be killed and revived by the actor. Its Beatrice of 1986 not the future Beatrice so yasu was the only person that fit the character.


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Well, if the Ange segments are even remotely truthful, there was only one survivor, Eva.

Yasu could have faked death, but we have almost nothing that really suggests that as a clue, besides wishful thinking or magic. Bottles could have been tossed out before the incident, after all.

It is unclear how Yasu could have gotten off the island, and if they lived in Kuwadorian, well, that's another can of worms. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's exactly the kind of complicated hypothesis that needs evidence to back it up.

Even "Yasu never existed" strikes me as more plausible than "Yasu is alive."
I think Yasu faked her death to kill the other persona. FOr example, did you forget Shannon's and Kanon's Death? the actor need to faked his/her own death just to do that.

I don't know how she might have survived but consider this things. She had been living there on rokkenjima her whole life. Do you think she don't know anything about the island? she even used some explosive to blow something up. The fact that she knows about the explosive means that she also knows about the existance of the military base. The base have tunnels that she can use and possibly hide some sort of boat in there.

About the message bottle. If the message bottles was tossed out before the incident ."Why was Battler included in the story"? Don't you think that it's weird. Battler was absent in rokkenjima for 6 years( i think, i totaly forgot). why would she add a person that wasn't in the island for so long?
For me it's make more sense if the message bottle was created after the incident.
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Old 2011-11-15, 12:58   Link #3509
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I think Yasu faked her death to kill the other persona. FOr example, did you forget Shannon's and Kanon's Death? the actor need to faked his/her own death just to do that.
This is a clue that Yasu faked death in the context of the "murders," and in a traditional Mystery, would be a strong clue that Yasu also faked death in the context of the explosion. however.

Quote:
she even used some explosive to blow something up. The fact that she knows about the explosive means that she also knows about the existance of the military base. The base have tunnels that she can use and possibly hide some sort of boat in there.
All of this relies on an assumption of Bernkastel's truthfulness, but again, if we go for the Mystery interpretation, I'll grant you that it would have been possible for Yasu to hide successfully.

The question is not possibility, but likelihood.

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If the message bottles was tossed out before the incident ."Why was Battler included in the story"? Don't you think that it's weird. Battler was absent in rokkenjima for 6 years( i think, i totaly forgot). why would she add a person that wasn't in the island for so long?
You may have hit upon something critical there, but I think it points in the other direction. First, remember that if Battler was going to visit, the servants would have some advance notice, giving Yasu time to rewrite. Second:

"If someone HAD decided to add Battler to the story at the last minute, what would the story look like?"

Yasu was unaware of Battler's impending arrival until a few weeks or days before it happened, and hastily wrote him into the message bottles.

Alternative:

Yasu didn't ever expect Battler to return, and put him in the story before distributing the bottles in order to 'show him the truth' on the slim chance that the bottles were found. If Battler was a major part of Yasu's motive, it would be impossible to tell the story fairly without including him.

What, exactly, does Battler DO that affects the plot of the first bottle? For that matter, what does non-Meta-Battler do that affects the plot of the second bottle?

One of my first hypotheses was "Battler was not on Rokkenjima." I think that I can resurrect this one as Yasu did not expect Battler to be on Rokkenjima, and so the non-forged bottles were initially written as if he were not even there.

The alternative: all bottles were forged, much to Ange's unhappiness.
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Old 2011-11-15, 13:17   Link #3510
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Will: "The crime didn't occur because Battler left.......It happened because Battler came back."

This is the start of a conversation in episode 7 between Will and Claire about how the Rokkenjima accident happens because Battler returns not because he left. And that if he returned any other year there'd still have been an event it just would have been a lot smaller because 1986 is for some reason the worst year for him to return.

Yasu didn't have to know when he would come back. She'd have written the stories with the premise that he came back even if he never did.
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Old 2011-11-15, 14:18   Link #3511
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you're talking about lion being the culprit and I know that. Will found two cuprits the dead cat and the live cat. Lion was the dead cat and the live cat was yasu
Other way around. Lion is the live cat. Yasu kills Beatrice because she no longer wants to be her, and Lion kills her by never becoming her in the first place.

Quote:
Anyway, Why are you guys thinking that Yasu Died on the Rokkenjima? I don't get it.
Because she's suicidal and expresses multiple times that she doesn't desire, or is perhaps unable, to live past October 5th, 1986. Lion's death drives this home.

Quote:
Also possible. Alternative: Yasu's story is metaphorical and Shannon/Kanon was a servant who daydreamed about being the heir of the family, and was bisexual and conflicted. In this case, a choice would be possible and all of the lover's duels in Ep 6 make a little more sense. The only evidence I can provide for this claim, besides te duels, is "argument from prior probability." Simple explanations (without surgeries and vanishing heirs and so on) are better than wild ones.

Yasu's story is so full of narrow chances and contrivances that it would take a TON of evidence to make it more plausible than "Shannon/Kanon had an uncertain gender identity, a good head for riddles and mysteries, and an active imagination." Bern's narration is not a ton of evidence.
Well, it's actually Yasu narrating her own life-story, and it's supposed to be her confession of the truth. If Yasu actually wrote it, we can trust it, I think. The only reason to doubt it is if a Witch-hunter wrote it.

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Well, if the Ange segments are even remotely truthful, there was only one survivor, Eva.
Only one KNOWN survivor. The only person confirmed to be dead is Maria. Everyone else is technically missing.

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You may have hit upon something critical there, but I think it points in the other direction. First, remember that if Battler was going to visit, the servants would have some advance notice, giving Yasu time to rewrite.
Alternatively, she was one of the first people to know that Battler was coming back, for much the same reason she SOMEHOW found out about the baby switch.

Is Yasu in cahoots with Rudolf?
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Old 2011-11-16, 02:49   Link #3512
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Other way around. Lion is the live cat. Yasu kills Beatrice because she no longer wants to be her, and Lion kills her by never becoming her in the first place.
Seconded, across multiple interpretations.

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Because she's suicidal and expresses multiple times that she doesn't desire, or is perhaps unable, to live past October 5th, 1986. Lion's death drives this home.
I use different reasoning. She is dead because "died with the others" is a much more plausible idea on its surface than amnesia, a faked disappearance that left no traces and required no external support, switching places with another character, or any number of other ruses. Saying otherwise requires us to specifically single her out for survival.

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Well, it's actually Yasu narrating her own life-story, and it's supposed to be her confession of the truth. If Yasu actually wrote it, we can trust it, I think. The only reason to doubt it is if a Witch-hunter wrote it.
Memory is reconstructive, and autobiography is hard even for the sane. Confessional autobiography is especially dicey.

I agree on the probable parts, but... Yasu's grasp on reality is not exactly firm. I wonder about the secret blood relationship to Kinzo. In prior episodes, it's been strongly hinted that when a person hears someone tell them exactly what they want to hear, that this is likely to be Fantasy.

Wouldn't Yasu want to have a story that explains why they are treated so differently? It could be for some reason that is terrible and unchangeable and sad, or it could be that they're the secret heir, the true heir, Beatrice.

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Only one KNOWN survivor. The only person confirmed to be dead is Maria. Everyone else is technically missing.
Granted. It is possible that someone else survives even in the Ange future. I don't believe it, but it is quite possible.

Quote:
Alternatively, she was one of the first people to know that Battler was coming back, for much the same reason she SOMEHOW found out about the baby switch.

Is Yasu in cahoots with Rudolf?
The Yasu/Rudolf conspiracy meshes nicely with a theory that Rudolf betrayed Yasu during a murder mystery game and killed everyone. Not that I actually hold such a theory - I'm still in the anti-Mystery/anti-Fantasy "big stupid accident + media lies + forgeries + Ange imagination" camp.
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Old 2011-11-16, 03:09   Link #3513
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I agree on the probable parts, but... Yasu's grasp on reality is not exactly firm. I wonder about the secret blood relationship to Kinzo. In prior episodes, it's been strongly hinted that when a person hears someone tell them exactly what they want to hear, that this is likely to be Fantasy.
I don't think Yasu would want to know that she was an incestual rape baby that was thrown off a cliff; and if she's not related to Kinzo or the previous Beatrice where in the hell did the baby come from and why does Kinzo care about it?

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Wouldn't Yasu want to have a story that explains why they are treated so differently? It could be for some reason that is terrible and unchangeable and sad, or it could be that they're the secret heir, the true heir, Beatrice.
But if the story is just her fantasy, then WHY is she treated so differently? Why is she given her own private room and brought in as a servant from such a young age? Why do Kumasawa and Genji treat her as the true head, and show her special consideration and affection before she even meets Kinzo?

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The Yasu/Rudolf conspiracy meshes nicely with a theory that Rudolf betrayed Yasu during a murder mystery game and killed everyone. Not that I actually hold such a theory - I'm still in the anti-Mystery/anti-Fantasy "big stupid accident + media lies + forgeries + Ange imagination" camp.
I like the Big Stupid Accident idea, but if I have to pick a culprit, George is more elegant.

I think we can dismiss the Rudolf/Kyrie angle precisely on the basis that Bernkastel, the villain, was the one to bring it up.
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Old 2011-11-16, 04:21   Link #3514
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I don't think Yasu would want to know that she was an incestual rape baby that was thrown off a cliff; and if she's not related to Kinzo or the previous Beatrice where in the hell did the baby come from and why does Kinzo care about it?
We are only told that Kinzo cared about a mystery baby in Episodes 5 onward, which are Bern games. The very absence of this information from the first four games is dubious - either the author failed to drop a really important clue, or the baby switch is exactly as fake as it sounds.

Let's assume, for the moment, that there was a child that Kinzo passed off to Natsuhi, and even that this child was his. This child needn't have actually been Yasu. What if Yasu heard the story of a tragedy on the cliff from someone and made up a role from that point on? Yasu does seem to be big on jumping into existing stories and taking them on.

Also, what a person fantasizes is not necessarily only what they "want" in a positive sense. They might also fantasize horrible things that they also "want" out of self-hatred.

Also...

Quote:
But if the story is just her fantasy, then WHY is she treated so differently? Why is she given her own private room and brought in as a servant from such a young age? Why do Kumasawa and Genji treat her as the true head, and show her special consideration and affection before she even meets Kinzo?
This actually gives me an idea. What if it was their scheme?

If they could convince Kinzo that Yasu was the dead child, and Genji gave away the answer to the riddle to Yasu...

They could effectively control the entire fortune by controlling Yasu, who seemed passive, manipulable, and gullible.


Maybe this scheme actually worked.

Genji tricked Yasu and Kinzo into believing a lie in order to get control of the gold.... he is truly a demon.

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I like the Big Stupid Accident idea, but if I have to pick a culprit, George is more elegant.

I think we can dismiss the Rudolf/Kyrie angle precisely on the basis that Bernkastel, the villain, was the one to bring it up.
Sadly, Bern mixes truth and deception so freely that we can't even do that. But it does seem like a strike against that interpretation.
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Old 2011-11-16, 04:40   Link #3515
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We are only told that Kinzo cared about a mystery baby in Episodes 5 onward, which are Bern games. The very absence of this information from the first four games is dubious - either the author failed to drop a really important clue, or the baby switch is exactly as fake as it sounds.

Let's assume, for the moment, that there was a child that Kinzo passed off to Natsuhi, and even that this child was his. This child needn't have actually been Yasu. What if Yasu heard the story of a tragedy on the cliff from someone and made up a role from that point on? Yasu does seem to be big on jumping into existing stories and taking them on.

Also, what a person fantasizes is not necessarily only what they "want" in a positive sense. They might also fantasize horrible things that they also "want" out of self-hatred.
The thing is, though, that Bernkastel is trying her damndest to expose the truth, and Will affirms everything Clair talks about.

Quote:
This actually gives me an idea. What if it was their scheme?

If they could convince Kinzo that Yasu was the dead child, and Genji gave away the answer to the riddle to Yasu...

They could effectively control the entire fortune by controlling Yasu, who seemed passive, manipulable, and gullible.

Maybe this scheme actually worked.

Genji tricked Yasu and Kinzo into believing a lie in order to get control of the gold.... he is truly a demon.
Except none of them acquire control of the gold. And if that was their motive, they could just wait for Kinzo to die, since no one knows the location of the gold; why bring in Yasu, who is a total wild card that they'd need to keep deceived and manipulated?
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Old 2011-11-16, 11:09   Link #3516
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We are only told that Kinzo cared about a mystery baby in Episodes 5 onward, which are Bern games.
Just a little correction, EP5, 6 and 8 (save for her game in the game) are not Berns games. To have control over the construction of a game you have to be the Gamemaster, which she probably only was during the main part of EP7. For EP5 it was Lambda (who is probably the Pro-Anti-Mystery angle) and for 6 and 8 it was BATTLER.
Also, a Gamemaster might throw in wild ideas but it has to be somehow in the Canon of the body of work you are writing in...so she can't just create that baby out o thin air. And like AT said, Bern did try her "best" to uncover the truth, though she wanted to do it in an entertaining "don't ever bore us" kinda way...which screwed with the presentation.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Except none of them acquire control of the gold. And if that was their motive, they could just wait for Kinzo to die, since no one knows the location of the gold; why bring in Yasu, who is a total wild card that they'd need to keep deceived and manipulated?
But I have to say that I considered that angle many times as well. Especially Genji is a very suspicious character and when you see him in connection to Ronove, many things make him look even more shady.
  • Kinz˘ admitted in EP8 that he trusted Genji with his life and we learned earlier that he knew most of all the secrets connected to Rokkenjima
  • In EP1 Genji vehemently denied the existence of any baby born between Kinz˘ and his mistress
  • In EP2 the explosion happens even though Yasu apparently died way before midnight. Genji on the other hand was still alive and lead Battler to the study.
  • In EP3 it is not Beatrice who catches the ring from Kinz˘ but Ronove. He only hands it to Beatrice then.
  • In the same Episode he is depicted as helping Beatrice in constructing the first twilight and also assisting the new Beatrice.
  • In EP4 he is shown to work with Goldsmith and Virgilia and imprisons Shannon and Kanon as well.

Genji could gain from using Yasu as a way to control Kinz˘s fortune and would also secure his position. He is also said to "wait for his final resting place in the Golden Land, but that an obstinate persons foolishness took that from him" in EP2 TIPs...so that would imply that he actually wanted to die but Yasu somehow prevented that from happening. So the fact that the baby he prepared and raised to carry out his wish would prevent his dream to come true...that could actually lead to a good motive.
Also Genji seems to have been the only one who knew of the exact location of the gold chamber, but he has no way to actually take control over it so that could probably angry him as well...

The problem is that No servant is allowed to be the culprit and Genji the butler clearly is a servant. Though I'd say that he is probably guiltier than he appears to be.
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Old 2011-11-16, 22:05   Link #3517
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Because she's suicidal and expresses multiple times that she doesn't desire, or is perhaps unable, to live past October 5th, 1986. Lion's death drives this home.
Objection
Yasu wasn't even portray in any stories up until ep7. She also wasn't said to be dead in red truth. Only the two characters that she played actually died and there's always the "illusion to illusion" thing in every death of those two characters. SO with that its possible that the character shannon/kanon died but not the actor who played them. Even Will said to lion that the actor can be still be alive even though the character that the actor played died.
Those two death was just a fake and yasu can even revive them at anytime just like what we saw in Ep3 so..
Take That!
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Old 2011-11-17, 01:07   Link #3518
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Yasu wasn't even portray in any stories up until ep7.
Yea, but Yasu and Meta-Beatrice are effectively synonymous since they have the same will, desires, and feelings.

The rest of what you said is totally irrelevant.

Spoiler:
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

Last edited by AuraTwilight; 2011-11-17 at 01:37. Reason: Spoiler button needs to work >:(
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Old 2011-11-17, 01:10   Link #3519
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
Only the two characters that she played actually died and there's always the "illusion to illusion" thing in every death of those two characters. SO with that its possible that the character shannon/kanon died but not the actor who played them. Even Will said to lion that the actor can be still be alive even though the character that the actor played died.
"Earth to earth. Nobody would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."?

ಠ_ಠ
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Old 2011-11-17, 03:16   Link #3520
unsuspectingvisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, but Yasu and Meta-Beatrice are effectively synonymous since they have the same will, desires, and feelings.

The rest of what you said is totally irrelevant.
Im talking about the character Shannon/Kanon in the Gameboard not the Meta beatrice.
Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler for :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
"Earth to earth. Nobody would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."?

ಠ_ಠ
i admit i got that wrong. But my point still stand.
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