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Old 2012-03-26, 16:53   Link #3681
LyricalAura
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Why does Beatrice being a piece or not have anything to do with Erika failing to solve the game? Is EP3 unfair to Battler because of Eva-Beatrice?
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Old 2012-03-26, 17:11   Link #3682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
No, in that case she would be no different from the piece Beatrice at the beginning of EP6, that Battler created in his delusions. And since she would still be a fake he would be troll NR.1 of the umineko universe for toying around with Erika.

Since this is EP7 thread i will not go into depth about the "real world" at this point.

Regarding the Beatrices: Both are the personification of the gameboard's rules. So it is possible that they are the same beings, just with... well... one them having amnesia.

The "can never revive again" can be easily defeated. She was "reborn" or "resurrected" and not revived. So the red truth does not apply to her. If that does not work for you, there is still the possibility that She was not dead to begin with.

I mean how many times was Kanon "dead" already? Oh wait... Beato died twice too...

Spoiler for EP8 -- Better DON'T READ THIS if you haven't finished EP8 yet:
They're not the same Beatrice, dude. One's dead. The other is effectively her reincarnation. But that's what Kinzo said about the Kuwadorian Beatrice, too.

Honestly, Kinzo and Battler are so full of parallels it's not even funny.
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Old 2012-03-26, 17:17   Link #3683
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Why does Beatrice being a piece or not have anything to do with Erika failing to solve the game? Is EP3 unfair to Battler because of Eva-Beatrice?
No. But if the Beatrice from EP6 is only a piece-Beato, then what was the purpose of this game? And why all this acting, as if the new Beato was an independant indivual, while in truth she only exists in lower-Meta and nowhere else...?

I guess I misspelled my point. Of course Erika can still win (if we assume that GM is NOT the "absolute controller of the game", including the player(s)), if she just solves the game.

My point was, what motives beside trolling Erika could be existing in AuraTwilight's interpretation for this whole playacting?


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They're not the same Beatrice, dude. One's dead. The other is effectively her reincarnation. But that's what Kinzo said about the Kuwadorian Beatrice, too.

Honestly, Kinzo and Battler are so full of parallels it's not even funny.
Woa... now it sounds as if Battler has a kid... or found some blond girl and kidnapped her... not good... I mean... who else could she be then? I don't want to completly disregard your theory, I just don't understand it completly.
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Old 2012-03-26, 17:44   Link #3684
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Why does she have to be anything besides what she is? The Meta-World is still it's own narrative besides it's symbolic layer. If Battler is reviving Beatrice in a symbolic sense, why can't this simply be via Battler remembering her and honoring her memory?
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Old 2012-03-26, 17:52   Link #3685
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Hm. It's also possible that Rudolf didn't make his apology in Lion's world, by Bern's meddling. After all, she claims to have had to search diligently for Lion through the kakera, but it's also pretty obvious that Lion's world, outside the "trapped between multiverses" chapel, isn't a regular mystery / fantasy gameboard like the others we've seen, anyway. So it'd be no real thing to say "Rudolf never apologized, here." If anything, it's a far smaller switch than Natsuhi accepting the baby, Kinzo still being alive, and Kyrie going ape-nuts despite not even having a cash-card to go ape-nuts over.
It can be. I've noticed another interesting thing in EP 7.
Bern says that there's only a chance for Yasu to become Lion, therefore Lion's world should be the only one in which Lion can exist but then talk about the possibility of a world with Lion in which Kinzo had a relation with him/her.
If there's only a world with Lion AS SHE TOLD TO LION, either the world with Kinzo abusing Lion doesn't exist or is that one and if it's that one Lion should know. Otherwise Bern lied and there are more than one world with Yasu becoming Lion (which would confirm my theory that the 'only 1 world with Yasu becoming Lion' is actually the 'only 1 world with Yasu becoming Lion and the tragedy take place anyway').

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So? Whose burial is EP7 about? "Murder Beatrice", "Doll Beatrice", "Revived Beatrice" or maybe is it one that was created artificially by Bern/Aurora? What do you think?
Kinzo is mourning Kuwadorian Beato and possibly Beatrice Castiglioni as well while Battler is likely mourning MetaBeato from EP 1-4, the Beato taht can't be revived.

However the interesting part is that said scene was cut from the manga.
As Ryukishi said he would keep an eye on the manga I wonder if this removal was due to his own decision and if it has a purpose that's more than just 'cutting an extra part'.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
My problem is this: what is the book on the altar on the nonfantasy gameboard? If it is what we are led to believe it to be in EP8, then what is it doing there?
The book in EP 7 is a tale Battler wrote for Beato. The book in EP 8 is the book of the single truth. The key Battler handed to Ange can open it so I guess opening it is one of the options Ange could have chosen in EP 8 (and it's in fact, one she'll choose), though likely it's an option Battler didn't want her to chose.

In my personal meta interpretation that game was created by Ange's mind and represented the conflict in her between knowing and not knowing, believing in her family and not believing, dying and going on living so Battler is merely a representation of one of Ange's sides while Bern is the representation of another.

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1. He is a worse ass than all of the other witches combined, because he trolled Erika with a non-existent-fake-piece-Beato in EP6 and pretended a scenario, where Erika had a chance to win the game, that did not exist at all.
Well, technically he created another Beato so a Beato existed... just not the previous.
Also it's not like he had a chance. He needed to stage that game to show his understanding of Beato's game and he needed to show it to an adversary.
If that wasn't the case he would have had no problems with Bern wishing to leave and take Erika with herself. Instead he needed Erika to tackle his mistery.

As we don't really see which was his game's intended plan since the game got warped by Erika, resumed by Beato and abandoned in between I don't really know if he made it unsolvable.

I don't really like much the trick Beato used to resume the game but maybe that's because I'm missing something.

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No. But if the Beatrice from EP6 is only a piece-Beato, then what was the purpose of this game? And why all this acting, as if the new Beato was an independant indivual, while in truth she only exists in lower-Meta and nowhere else...?
EP 5 too had a pieceBeato that wasn't MetaBeato and actually came from an entirely different background as it wasn't anymore an illusion Yasu created but one Natsuhi created.

EP6 Beato is likely a metaphor/representation for something.
Battler says she's not a mere piece he can control so she has her own will.
I like to see her as a PreBeato like Beato the elder.

In a fashion the metapart is all about things that should have happened BEFORE 1986.
We've the Beato that existed only to play pranks and the Beato who loves Battler and believes in him (and that should be prior to Yasu losing faith in Battler's return even if the meta says she was created AFTER Beato died) and we've 'Battler leaving' and the 'duel' between Shannon and Kanon, things that also should have happened prior to the Rokkenjima incident when Yasu had already taken a decision (in EP 7 also it's implied the 'duel' took place prior to those fateful days).

So the meta to me it's an extra hint about what had happened in the past inside Yasu, twisted so it would look like it was happening right then.
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Old 2012-03-26, 18:00   Link #3686
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I think on the layer of Erika's and Battler's wedding, it would be best to just accept that Beatrice as the same one. She started out as the resurrected chick!Beato, but when she saw finally understood who she was, she became Full!Beatrice, the same one who died. The Over-world* is almost purely fantasy and is a story of it's own, don't over think it.

*Because even the "Meta-word" is completely twisted upon itself like we see in EP6, I think we need a better way to name these things. In EP6 we got Ange reading a story to Hachijou about BATTLER creating a game in which Ange reads a story to Featherine about BATTLER playing a game against Erika that is supposed to tell the truth of what happened to the Ushiromiya family October 1986. Plus we had Beato jumping a level or two. And even the top layer I described might be actually be the second or third layer below more layers. Ugh my head hurts.
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Old 2012-03-26, 18:54   Link #3687
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It can be. I've noticed another interesting thing in EP 7.
Bern says that there's only a chance for Yasu to become Lion, therefore Lion's world should be the only one in which Lion can exist but then talk about the possibility of a world with Lion in which Kinzo had a relation with him/her.
If there's only a world with Lion AS SHE TOLD TO LION, either the world with Kinzo abusing Lion doesn't exist or is that one and if it's that one Lion should know. Otherwise Bern lied and there are more than one world with Yasu becoming Lion (which would confirm my theory that the 'only 1 world with Yasu becoming Lion' is actually the 'only 1 world with Yasu becoming Lion and the tragedy take place anyway').
There's definitely more than one world with Lion, it's just hard for Bern to find one because it occurs at a low rate compared to others. I think Bern was mostly trolling that THAT Lion's world ended in tragedy, anyway, and he has such a low rate of occurence that he can barely survive as a Meta concept (she does kill him at the end, after all).

...but then, I also think that there's only one "real world" in the story, and the Lion we see exists entirely as the Mary Sue embodiment of kinder forgery writers who feel "maybe it didn't HAVE to be so awful." Of course, people are dicks and almost noone thinks this, so the same logic applies to kill Lion anyways. Lambda adopting him means something like "there will always be at least one person willing to consider how your life may have turned out differently, in a good way." For me, anyways.
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Old 2012-03-26, 19:41   Link #3688
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There's definitely more than one world with Lion, it's just hard for Bern to find one because it occurs at a low rate compared to others. I think Bern was mostly trolling that THAT Lion's world ended in tragedy, anyway, and he has such a low rate of occurence that he can barely survive as a Meta concept (she does kill him at the end, after all).
Well, to me Bern's words seem to imply more the idea that there was only 1 world with Lion than that worlds with Lion were hard to find as probably is expressed in numbers not in percentage.

Quote:
"......There's no need to thank her. ......After all, it took a dizzying span of time just to find a Fragment with you in it. Mathematically speaking, there's actually a 2,578,916/2,578,917 chance of her refusing to raise you. You should probably be thanking me for creating this miracle, not Natsuhi. ...*giggle*giggle*."
Quote:
"That is correct. I had to find one Fragment out of 2,578,917 in order to discover the miracle that is you. ......However, it was very, very easy to find this result for your world. After all, probability isn't a factor. ......I'm a witch who can find any miracle, no matter how unlikely it is."
"But I can't find things that don't exist. ......If the Witch of Certainty really guarantees that something is certain, even I can't win against her."
"But......then......I............"
"With a 2,578,916 out of 2,578,917 probability, you live in the world as Clair, are toyed with by an inescapable fate, and reach a tragic end. And, with a 1 out of 2,578,917 probability, you live as Ushiromiya Lion...and are killed by Kyrie tonight."
"......In other words, your fate...no, the fate the two of you share, ......traps you in an inescapable dead end, a hell of fate, with a 2,578,917 out of 2,578,917 probability. To put it another way, it's a certain fate, with absolutely no chance for a miracle! *giggle*, eheheheheheheheheheh!! Sucks for you, Clair. No, Beatrice."

... but it can be just me.

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...but then, I also think that there's only one "real world" in the story, and the Lion we see exists entirely as the Mary Sue embodiment of kinder forgery writers who feel "maybe it didn't HAVE to be so awful." Of course, people are dicks and almost noone thinks this, so the same logic applies to kill Lion anyways. Lambda adopting him means something like "there will always be at least one person willing to consider how your life may have turned out differently, in a good way." For me, anyways.
I like to think as Lion (and Will) as a meta representation of how Yasu (and Battler) survived the incident (although they became Ikuko and Toya) as there are parallels between the 2 couple but this might be just me.
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Old 2012-03-26, 20:13   Link #3689
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I'm not a fan of Ikuko = Yasu theory for some reason. I have nothing to say for or against it though.

At first it seems like Bern is just rattling off the numbers she's experienced. There are probably a lot more than 2,578,917 Fragments, but that's all that Bern found yet? Now that Bern has "opened a larger catbox" maybe more Fragments will begin to exist in which Lion is Lion? I don't know, I'm tired and maybe this isn't making sense.

But maybe the scene showing Lion dying is depicting a piece of Prime: it doesn't matter if she's Yasu or Lion, she will die because on October 4th and 5th 1986 that's what happened.
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Old 2012-03-27, 09:53   Link #3690
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Hey, i was tempted some times to post my thoughts here too, but it is just the EP7 thread, so maybe we should at least put EP8 content into spoiler tags.
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Old 2012-03-29, 14:58   Link #3691
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, to me Bern's words seem to imply more the idea that there was only 1 world with Lion than that worlds with Lion were hard to find as probably is expressed in numbers not in percentage.

... but it can be just me.
How are ... you arriving at that conclusion? The numbers Bern gave can totally be read as a percentage. It's something like 0.00000004%, rounding up a little. That's how often "Lion worlds" occur. And in the part you qupted, she says "A" fragment with you in in it, not "THE fragment with you in it". Of course, there's the part where she tries to imply that every instance of Lyon will certainly be shot in the face by Kyrie, but I'm preeeeetty sure she's just trolling, like she was with her "This is all truth" red to Ange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
At first it seems like Bern is just rattling off the numbers she's experienced. There are probably a lot more than 2,578,917 Fragments, but that's all that Bern found yet? Now that Bern has "opened a larger catbox" maybe more Fragments will begin to exist in which Lion is Lion? I don't know, I'm tired and maybe this isn't making sense.

But maybe the scene showing Lion dying is depicting a piece of Prime: it doesn't matter if she's Yasu or Lion, she will die because on October 4th and 5th 1986 that's what happened.
I'd go conservative and say she went through many, many more fragments than that, which would allow her to state that obnoviously specific probability rate more accurately, and justifies the line "However, it was very, very easy to find this result for your world.", which implies that she found several Lion worlds that had him die. Or maybe she was just trolling in that line, too. It's possible.
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Old 2012-03-29, 20:17   Link #3692
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How are ... you arriving at that conclusion? The numbers Bern gave can totally be read as a percentage. It's something like 0.00000004%, rounding up a little. That's how often "Lion worlds" occur. And in the part you qupted, she says "A" fragment with you in in it, not "THE fragment with you in it". Of course, there's the part where she tries to imply that every instance of Lyon will certainly be shot in the face by Kyrie, but I'm preeeeetty sure she's just trolling, like she was with her "This is all truth" red to Ange.
English isn't my first language so my translation can be imperfect however there's nowhere a % sign and, if there were more Lions, the importance and the satisfation of destroying 1 would become smaller as others would survive and reach a happy ending.
Of course Bern might have been lying and the fragments with Lion in it might have been way more than the ones with Yasu in... but if we assume she was lying then everything is possible, even that the worlds with Lion in it are much more than the ones with Yasu in it.

After all to have Lion in it we don't need to have Natsuhi accepting it first sight. We could have Genji merely telling Kinzo the injured baby survived.
Natsuhi looked pretty guilt striken after the baby's fall so I doubt she would try to toss Lion down a cliff again.
And hey, who says Beato 2 has to die? There could be fragments in which she survived and raised the baby (assuming the baby is hers).
And we could have fragments in which Natsuhi had Jessica prior to Lion so Kinzo wouldn't tell her something hurtful when handing her the baby.
Actually we could even have Kinzo not telling her something hurtful.
Or we could have Kinzo entrusting the baby to Eva.
Or Natsuhi falling off a cliff in Lion & the maid's place.
And so on.

For me the point was Bern was searching only through fragments that could fit with the catbox and the catbox ended with the Rokkenjima explosion. So, even if she 'put it in a bigger one' the bigger one stretch in the past not in the future and ends always with the incident.
In this way she can tell a painful truth even if her words aren't the complete truth.

In the catbox she was interested in there are 2,578,917 fragments and only 1 has Lion. Though is she were to consider different catboxes she could find more Lions...
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Old 2012-03-29, 23:23   Link #3693
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It doesn't matter if there's more Lions or only one Lion; if any Lion can't escape the tragedy of 1986, it sends the mission that NONE of them can and that Yasu is completely unable to secure any sort of happy future. You're putting way too much stock on Bernkastel's probabilities. She's not being literal.
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Old 2012-03-30, 04:55   Link #3694
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Still, 2,578,917 is an awfully specific number. If she was just being metaphorical you'd think she'd use a less exact number like just 'two billion' or something.
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Old 2012-03-30, 14:56   Link #3695
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It's an awfully BIG number that's specific enough to sound real. It's exactly because she's not just using "two billion" that it sounds more impressive and imposing. No other means of expressing this can send home the sheer improbability of Lion's existence even if there's more than one of him. He's rare. He is exceedingly unlikely to occur. But there's more than 2,578,917 fragments in existence because the catbox is infinite. Therefore, in a relative sense, Lion himself is also probably infinite, but to a smaller degree.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:21   Link #3696
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I always thought about the "probability" as "the chance that this is the truth in the real world" or in other words "the chances that this is PRIME".

It was never said in EP7 that Lion was going to huge parties with many people everywhere. So EP7 could be a construction, where Lion was always there in PRIME, but people just didn't know. And that would explain, why her probability to exist is so low, I mean how high are the chances, that no one (who is willing to talk to witch hunters) knows about Lion existing and being the heir.

I thought this from the first moment on, after I saw that scene, and was sure most people here had the same thoughts, but it seems I was wrong about that
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:38   Link #3697
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I always thought about the "probability" as "the chance that this is the truth in the real world" or in other words "the chances that this is PRIME".

It was never said in EP7 that Lion was going to huge parties with many people everywhere. So EP7 could be a construction, where Lion was always there in PRIME, but people just didn't know. And that would explain, why her probability to exist is so low, I mean how high are the chances, that no one (who is willing to talk to witch hunters) knows about Lion existing and being the heir.

I thought this from the first moment on, after I saw that scene, and was sure most people here had the same thoughts, but it seems I was wrong about that
I've considered this theory but there's a hole in it.
Lion goes to the same school as Jessica and Lion is also student representative (or something like that) so we would have a lot of people among teachers, students and people working in the school that know about Lion's existence.
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Old 2012-03-30, 20:50   Link #3698
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Which would thus make Lion's probability of existence 0%, so that's obviously not how we're supposed to interpret this.
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Old 2012-03-30, 21:02   Link #3699
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No, again, I'm still leaning towards the "no matter what Yasuda/Lion/this person won't survive Oct. 1986" which is why
Spoiler for EP8:
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Old 2012-03-30, 21:10   Link #3700
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Lion is a piece who was created for the first time in Bern's EP7 gameboard. So at the time, that's the only fragment he existed in by definition, right?
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