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Old 2010-08-20, 09:45   Link #401
Gohan78
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Out of curiosity, is there any way you can twist "Ronoue" into, say... Italian? Giuseppe to Genji? I dunno, but we've got an Italian around, we should ask and see if anything's similar.
Sorry, it doesn't resemble any Italian names I am aware of.
I think "Ronoue" comes from the demon Ronove and is probably a fake surname given to Genji by Kinzo.

BTW I have a question for the people who already read the new episode. Is it true that the Logic Error of Ep.6 is resolved as "it was all fantasy, lol"? Because that would be extremely disappointing.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:00   Link #402
Renall
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Sorry, it doesn't resemble any Italian names I am aware of.
I think "Ronoue" comes from the demon Ronove and is probably a fake surname given to Genji by Kinzo.

BTW I have a question for the people who already read the new episode. Is it true that the Logic Error of Ep.6 is resolved as "it was all fantasy, lol"? Because that would be extremely disappointing.
I think people got confused because in the Will/Claire duel, Will describes a lot of things as illusions. He doesn't mean they're literal fantasies, but that they're tricks.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:15   Link #403
Will Wright
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I may be getting confused here, but isn't it possible Battler's logic error was done on purpose? Something along the lines of 'Umineko is Beatrice's logic error. Battler is the one who can get her out of that logic error. To show her he understood her tale, he put himself in a logic error she could get him out of'? Or something?

Also, is there a translation of Will's duel with Claire? My Japanese isn't the most accurate, so I wouldn't mind a more accurate source before I begin to speculate based on wording.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:24   Link #404
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
BTW I have a question for the people who already read the new episode. Is it true that the Logic Error of Ep.6 is resolved as "it was all fantasy, lol"? Because that would be extremely disappointing.
As Renall said, the "Mirages" Will talked about didn't refer to fantasies, but to tricks - most of them were things people had already thought about (for example, the chapel not actually being locked by the time the murders for EP2's 1st Twilight happened).

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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I may be getting confused here, but isn't it possible Battler's logic error was done on purpose? Something along the lines of 'Umineko is Beatrice's logic error. Battler is the one who can get her out of that logic error. To show her he understood her tale, he put himself in a logic error she could get him out of'? Or something?
Yes, there are already theories on EP6's actually going exactly as Battler planned it. But well, this is the first time I've heard anyone thinking the whole game was a logic error itself.

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Also, is there a translation of Will's duel with Claire? My Japanese isn't the most accurate, so I wouldn't mind a more accurate source before I begin to speculate based on wording.
I think I've seen some around, but if by tomorrow no one has posted any, I think I can translate it for you.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:31   Link #405
chronotrig
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Speaking of that duel, it seems we can learn a lot from it. Of course, it isn't 100% certain that Will's right, but since the clues are made so vaguely, I doubt he's wrong. Also, for him to be wrong would violate the Van Dine rules themselves, plus this follows the pattern of the new meta-detective solving the game in each core arc (Battler, Beatrice, Wright). So, if we do assume that his answers are the right ones, where does that lead us?

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Old 2010-08-20, 10:43   Link #406
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He argues, repeatedly, that Kanon's existence is an illusion. However, he also fails to actually get rid of Claire and fails to defeat Bernkastel, so I'm not totally sure how right or wrong Will is. He's also very terse (the duel is certainly not an involved, in-depth "this is exactly how each twilight worked out"), so he gives us a snappy "solution" but still requires us to puzzle out what his solution means. It's more obvious in some cases than others.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:49   Link #407
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Out of curiosity, is there any way you can twist "Ronoue" into, say... Italian? Giuseppe to Genji? I dunno, but we've got an Italian around, we should ask and see if anything's similar.
"Ronove" can be associated probably with French (sounding like "ro" [rome] "no" and "ve" [as "venice"] . Giuseppe is Joseph in english, i don't think it can apply to Genji.

Nothing else that can help in that.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:56   Link #408
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Yes, there are already theories on EP6's actually going exactly as Battler planned it. But well, this is the first time I've heard anyone thinking the whole game was a logic error itself.
Haha, forgive me for the crazy argument. It just occurred to me that Beatrice didn't even know the answer to some twilights herself, as they were her logic errors. She was laying them out to Battler so he could find an answer and save her from it.

Quote:
I think I've seen some around, but if by tomorrow no one has posted any, I think I can translate it for you.
Thank you, that would be great.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:01   Link #409
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He's also very terse (the duel is certainly not an involved, in-depth "this is exactly how each twilight worked out"), so he gives us a snappy "solution" but still requires us to puzzle out what his solution means.
Well, I wouldn't put the blame on Will for this, but on R07. If you remember, he said he wouldn't give us any straight answers. That duel in EP7 is, quite likely, as much as you'll get. You can do whatever you want with it, but we won't get full explanations as in Higurashi Kai. R07 clearly said he wouldn't do that in Umineko. This is precisely why he said Chiru shouldn't be considered answer arcs.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:02   Link #410
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Well, Battler does promise to take Beatrice away from the board. If she had been trapped in a Logic Error for a thousand years, that would be a valid reason to help her escape and explain what Lambda's "patronage" really means.

Of course that leaves the problem that, as of the end of ep5, Beatrice appears to be gone, and if Ange was right at the end of ep6, she's actually "satisfied." Yet Battler still exists in the meta-world, Bernkastel still has the board, and things just generally don't seem too terribly "resolved" yet.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:03   Link #411
Will Wright
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Also question about the ending, what exactly happened to Will? You guys think we'll see him in episode 8?

Quote:
Of course that leaves the problem that, as of the end of ep5, Beatrice appears to be gone, and if Ange was right at the end of ep6, she's actually "satisfied." Yet Battler still exists in the meta-world, Bernkastel still has the board, and things just generally don't seem too terribly "resolved" yet.
I could get around that with twisted logic. She could just have gone insane as logic errors have that effect on people after a while, since episode 5 beatrice and episode 6 battler are comparable. Her time "ran out" so to speak. And as for her being satisfied, that's because tried to/solved everything.

It's a shaky explanation at best, but it's passable.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:09   Link #412
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Bern knocked their pieces down on the actual board. The implication being that she took him out. Whether that's true, or whether it matters (after all, pieces get killed off all the time), hard to say.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:11   Link #413
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Oh, I see. I hope we get to see Will again. He is by far my favorite character in the series so far.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:34   Link #414
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Sorry, it doesn't resemble any Italian names I am aware of.
I think "Ronoue" comes from the demon Ronove and is probably a fake surname given to Genji by Kinzo.
Ep7 claims that Ronove and Gaap are names handed out explicitly by MARIA during the same party that introduces the rabbit weapons, which dates this event to 1984-1985. Ronove even makes sure to point out what a nice coincidence it is to get a magical name so much like his non-magical one.

However, there's also many other things Ep7 claims that I can't say I accept, so we're left blank with it... On the other hand, if Genji's name is Kinzo's invention, whatever it's source really is, I think I have a good definition of "furniture" that fits all cases of people being called "furniture", that is, Genji, Kanon and Shannon:

Furniture is someone who's legal personhood and related paper trail is a deliberate, possibly flawed creation, and not a naturally occurring fact. This is the case for many Fukuin children, which Ep1 explicitly says to be "children rejected by their parents", rather than simply orphans. That would naturally often happen completely anonymously and without any legal record of their existence until they become Fukuin students, so their very name is almost invariably "fake", as far as such a thing as a fake name can exist at all. Ep7 explicitly says this is the case with Yasu, and Genji's last name clearly suggests this is also the case with him.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:41   Link #415
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Furniture is someone who's legal personhood and related paper trail is a deliberate, possibly flawed creation, and not a naturally occurring fact..
Well, according to Yasu in EP7, Furniture is someone who is unable to love (or was it be loved? I don't remember well). She said this much during that flashback Lyon had before Kyrie shoot her. Yasu was very angry/frustrated asking why Genji and Nanjo saved her, since that big injury she has makes her unable to love/be loved, and that because of that, she cannot be called human but furniture.

Now, why Genji refers to himself as furniture, I have no idea.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:48   Link #416
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Well, according to Yasu in EP7, Furniture is someone who is unable to love (or was it be loved? I don't remember well). She said this much during that flashback Lyon had before Kyrie shoot her. Yasu was very angry/frustrated asking why Genji and Nanjo saved her, since that big injury she has makes her unable to love/be loved, and that because of that, she cannot be called human but furniture.
Just what kind of injury can make a person 'unable to love or be loved'? I look at pictures of Stephen Hawking and innumerable other examples of people having even worse things happen to them (Hawking is just one of the more graphic and famous cases) and still being objects of affection, and wonder if such an injury can at all exist. If thinking otherwise is the reason for Yasu's condition, Battler's sin whittles down into nothingness, whatever his action, it would not end well.

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Now, why Genji refers to himself as furniture, I have no idea.
People who's legal identity does not stand up to detailed scrutiny are going to have problems registering a marriage.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:50   Link #417
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But taking that line of reasoning further, why are they all fighting over one thing? It's not like being acknowledged by Kinzo necessarily clears up the splotch on one's legal identity. And Shannon's is apparently workable enough to go to school. How hard could it be?
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:52   Link #418
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
He argues, repeatedly, that Kanon's existence is an illusion. However, he also fails to actually get rid of Claire and fails to defeat Bernkastel, so I'm not totally sure how right or wrong Will is.
Well, as for defeating Bernkastel, that's an entirely different battlefield. In that case, he was trying to prove the Kyrie world wrong using the Van Dine rules. I think his loss only means that Bern's theory satisfied the Van Dine rules, at least as far as he was willing to use them (he's probably abandoned a few of the rules when he left his group).

Since the Kyrie world had no magic themed murders, it's impossible for it to have been done in the same manner as EP1-4, so even if it is the truth, it isn't the truth of any of the question arcs. Personally, I think the entire thing is very plausible, with the possible exception of Kyrie's behavior.


Another reason I think he's right is the whole Yasu half of the game. If that were mostly a troll, you think it would have made more immediate sense but less sense in the long run. However, though it seems to be a mishmash at first, the more I look at it, the more sense it seems to make. Furthermore, if you want it to make sense, you must assume that a great many scenes were simply left out of the story, which would fit with this being the second to last episode and not the last one.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:54   Link #419
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Just what kind of injury can make a person 'unable to love or be loved'?
I've got no idea to be honest. I've heard the weirdest things, but some of them do make sense.
One of them is - regardless of Yasu's sex - s(he) damaged his/her genitals in that fall. It was said in EP7 that Yasu's growth was rather slow, and that's why s(he) was presented as being 3 years younger than s(he) actually was. So, I think it makes some sense.
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Old 2010-08-20, 11:57   Link #420
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Another reason I think he's right is the whole Yasu half of the game. If that were mostly a troll, you think it would have made more immediate sense but less sense in the long run. However, though it seems to be a mishmash at first, the more I look at it, the more sense it seems to make. Furthermore, if you want it to make sense, you must assume that a great many scenes were simply left out of the story, which would fit with this being the second to last episode and not the last one.
It is a troll, undeniably, in the sense that he is still playing coy with it. There's no reason for that except that he wants to keep people arguing about it.

It's certainly clear that he wants us to take a particular interpretation from it. I just don't think that interpretation is the sole possible or, if you want to put it another way, only necessary interpretation. The question is, was he meaning there to be any other interpretation, or did he just want the prospects to continue existing so he could keep people arguing over it? At this point, it's hard to think he isn't just doing it to tweak us, to the point that he's working very hard to provide the "strongest" evidence for and against it at the same time while still remaining utterly noncommittal.

I don't really like that. It's distracting, especially if this whole Kyrie thing is true, as it appears to be mostly irrelevant to whatever it is Kyrie's up to. Granted, that hardly means it's irrelevant overall.
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