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Old 2010-08-20, 11:58   Link #421
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But taking that line of reasoning further, why are they all fighting over one thing? It's not like being acknowledged by Kinzo necessarily clears up the splotch on one's legal identity. And Shannon's is apparently workable enough to go to school. How hard could it be?
My guess would be that they are fighting over which of them is to be accepted as Leon, Kinzo's secret child and the fifth Ushiromiya sibling. While that does not actually clear the splotch on the legal identity, should it come true, it causes being accepted by the entire Ushiromiya family and irons it out with the weight of their combined connections and influence.
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Old 2010-08-20, 12:00   Link #422
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I assume then that your argument from a narrative standpoint, without Shkanon, would be that:
  • One of them is the baby given to Natsuhi (if it existed).
  • One of them is Asumu's Battler (if it survived).
  • Neither of them knows which.
  • It is theoretically possible for both to be acknowledged this way.
  • However, what of Beatrice or Yasu or whoever?
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Old 2010-08-20, 12:07   Link #423
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It is a troll, undeniably, in the sense that he is still playing coy with it. There's no reason for that except that he wants to keep people arguing about it.
Well, since you're saying it's a troll for Ryuukishi to not reveal the answer before the final game, I can't say I really agree with you. No one should really be expecting to get the full answer, and he didn't give the full answer. Nothing really to be surprised about.

By troll, I meant having the entire thing be mostly false. I think this person called Yasu really did exist, and eventually became one of the culprits at the time of the crime. As for the details, there may be some debatable points, but I think the overall arc was far too long to be wasted on a wrong theory.
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Old 2010-08-20, 12:19   Link #424
Oliver
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However, what of Beatrice or Yasu or whoever?
Beatrice is a virtual entity in the first place, but not just a virtual entity -- so in this interpretation it's a legacy that one of the two possible characters are entitled to but not both.

Two skeletons in the closet exist:
  • The child of Beatrice-2 and Kinzo, entitled to be Beatrice-3 and to the position of the fifth sibling Leon. Whether this is the favoured position due to being the child of the woman Kinzo actually loved or not is beside the point, in any case it is a much more pleasant role in the family than that of a servant.
  • The Other Battler, entitled to share the status and position with Battler, that is, entitled to be treated as the fifth Ushiromiya cousin.
Both enter the cat box that is the Fukuin admittance process and out come Shannon and Kanon, distinct individuals neither of which has clear legal personhood. They don't know which of them is which, and they probably don't know that the Other Battler slot even exists. It is quite certain that if one of them is conclusively proven to be Leon, the other one has to be the Other Battler, but no such proof is known to exist.

...ooh, idea.

How does Battler's return cause the tragedy, when him leaving doesn't? Battler's return prompts the discovery that the slot of the Other Battler exists, which causes an identity crisis in Shannontrice. Now Shannon and Kanon exist in superposition, if one of them is Leon, the other is certainly the Other Battler, but existing evidence does not allow them to determine which is which. While the elaborate fake murder rampage has been prepared for reason X, it is put on hold when this discovery surfaces.

Then someone jumps at the opportunity, leaving both Shannon and Kanon in the dust!

EDIT: This logic actually works the same in case of Shkanontrice, too.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-08-20 at 12:39.
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Old 2010-08-20, 13:22   Link #425
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, since you're saying it's a troll for Ryuukishi to not reveal the answer before the final game, I can't say I really agree with you. No one should really be expecting to get the full answer, and he didn't give the full answer. Nothing really to be surprised about.

By troll, I meant having the entire thing be mostly false. I think this person called Yasu really did exist, and eventually became one of the culprits at the time of the crime. As for the details, there may be some debatable points, but I think the overall arc was far too long to be wasted on a wrong theory.
You say that every time, but it doesn't make it any less of an obvious ploy by the author. If he wants to keep the answer a secret from the start to the finish, he keeps it a secret. This is exactly the opposite of that. This is "look how very very close I am to confirming this, oooooh but I'm not quite going all the way, huh, why am I doing that, huh huh?" You can defend his behavior if you wish, but I won't acknowledge it as anything but what it is: A way to keep people talking.
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Old 2010-08-20, 13:35   Link #426
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You say that every time, but it doesn't make it any less of an obvious ploy by the author. If he wants to keep the answer a secret from the start to the finish, he keeps it a secret. This is exactly the opposite of that. This is "look how very very close I am to confirming this, oooooh but I'm not quite going all the way, huh, why am I doing that, huh huh?" You can defend his behavior if you wish, but I won't acknowledge it as anything but what it is: A way to keep people talking.
Of course it's a way to keep people talking. Do you expect him to give the answer away before the end, or to provide no helpful clues at all? That's the whole point of having 4 core arcs: to feed us the answer bit by bit until the end. It's not a ploy, it's the basic structure of the story, and should have been obvious to everyone since the time he first divided it into question arcs and core arcs. I fail to see how you could interpret this as a negative thing.
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Old 2010-08-20, 13:39   Link #427
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This is not "feeding the answer bit by bit." Certainly not at this point, anyway. It isn't worth arguing about, but I guess that won't stop anyone.
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Old 2010-08-20, 14:03   Link #428
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Well, actually I have a question to ask:

Is EP7 an answer offered by Featherine? Since we were told in ??? of EP6 that Bern was going to be her "reader", while the answer offered by Featherine was fixed, Bern had the freedom of how to read (she likened it to intonation, pace, etc)

So can I say that while Featherine gave out some answer like

"Kyrie and Rudolf murdered a bunch of people in the prime-Rokenjima, and finally shot down by Eva",

Bern interpreted in the way which we read in the tea party.

And since Featherine was the Witch of Theatergoing, Drama and Spectating, her answer should be similar to "ours", as she was in a different level from the main cast.

Hence people said EP7 was like a cauldron of fan theories thrown together.
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Old 2010-08-20, 14:57   Link #429
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In the ura tea party at the end of this episode, Featherine was satisfied with the answer that Bernkastel had shown.

I can't see why she would satisfied with an answer that portrays Kyrie and Rudolf in such a negative way. Wait... yes I can
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Old 2010-08-20, 15:20   Link #430
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In the ura tea party at the end of this episode, Featherine was satisfied with the answer that Bernkastel had shown.

I can't see why she would satisfied with an answer that portrays Kyrie and Rudolf in such a negative way. Wait... yes I can
Well, we don't know that was the answer she was satisfied with. I think it had more to do with the Episode as a whole.
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Old 2010-08-20, 15:42   Link #431
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If it matched the answer she was expecting, why wouldn't she be satisfied? That says nothing more than that it is an ending she can accept. It's not an ending Ange or Battler (and, if his talk of happy endings is true, Will) can accept, however, so there will be something more.

What's suspicious is that while the Rudolf/Kyrie thing meshes well enough with the scenarios Featherine has claimed to have written, it does not appear to do so with the first two episodes, which depict Rudolf and Kyrie dead in the First Twilight. Which casts a shadow on "her" truth.
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Old 2010-08-20, 15:56   Link #432
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That's okay, in Umineko being shown dead and being said in red to be dead doesn't mean a thing, heh.

So Kyrie can still be the main culprit in arc 1-2, heh. Tho to be fair she's been suspicious in every single arc.

A bit on the side tho, isn't Kyrie a ... unusual name for a japanese person?
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Old 2010-08-20, 16:17   Link #433
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Kirie isn't really common, but it isn't unusual. Far from it, it is at least a japanese first name unlike other characters' (except peharps George).
The real issue is that Kyrie has an odd romaji, the "y", but it is a reference, as we explained in ep1 grimoire.
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Old 2010-08-20, 16:30   Link #434
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Aaah thanks, probably read that too long ago.
I'm not sure what Assumptio is (reading about the Asumu part too).
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Old 2010-08-20, 16:45   Link #435
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The real issue is that Kyrie has an odd romaji, the "y", but it is a reference, as we explained in ep1 grimoire.
That's a very funny thing when you know what a Kyrie Eleison is, and what Kyrie means.
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Old 2010-08-20, 17:53   Link #436
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Her data is labeled KIR, too, but 'Kyrie' is correct per 07th Expansion's own confirmation, so there you go.

Asumu is noted to appear in ep7 in a Yasu flashback, but isn't shown; Yasu just notes she's arrived.
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Old 2010-08-20, 18:45   Link #437
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That Kyrie is involved in some sort of plot involving Beatrice is hinted in Ep.'s 2 and 4, where she interacts with people that don;t exist. I don't think she's the murderer, but I'd bet the fate twilights are partially her brainchild.
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Old 2010-08-20, 19:50   Link #438
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Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
That Kyrie is involved in some sort of plot involving Beatrice is hinted in Ep.'s 2 and 4, where she interacts with people that don;t exist. I don't think she's the murderer, but I'd bet the fate twilights are partially her brainchild.
Funny you should mention Episode 2, because isnt she offed at the very beginning?

It would be pretty difficult to fake your guts being stuffed with candy, I'd presume. If anyone in Episode 2 is suspicious, I would say its Rosa, without a doubt. Given her presence in the chapel and subsequent survival of the First Twilight
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Old 2010-08-20, 20:25   Link #439
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Funny you should mention Episode 2, because isnt she offed at the very beginning?

It would be pretty difficult to fake your guts being stuffed with candy, I'd presume. If anyone in Episode 2 is suspicious, I would say its Rosa, without a doubt. Given her presence in the chapel and subsequent survival of the First Twilight
Doesn't mean the faking part couldn't have been her plan. It just has to have gone wrong somehow, which would put "Beatrice" and Rosa as obvious suspects.
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Old 2010-08-20, 20:39   Link #440
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