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Old 2010-08-24, 10:58   Link #781
Renall
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Battler finds Maria apparently poisoned, although that's his conclusion and not necessarily the case. The endscroll says 10th Twilight for both Maria and Battler. It could have just been drugging her, but either way she'd wind up dead if the person who incapacitated her knew about the bomb. But if it wasn't Yasu, who would treat her that way, and if it was, how did she not know about the bomb?
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:10   Link #782
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Well my point being was that Maria's relationship with Beatrice as the Mariage Socier would be irrelevant if Yasu does not consider the bonds with Maria to be important. Consider the fact that, even if somehow it was unintentional, Beatrice ended up using Maria as a vehicle to spread and insist on the Beatrice legend and knowledge as a means to use the Beatrice persona as the mask for perpetrating the crimes. By disseminating it through Maria, it reinforces the suspicions of a real Beatrice being behind the murders.

In the end Maria was still used for this end, and again assuming the subservience of the Beatrice persona, Maria's life could be considered irrelevant and expendable because again, Yasu likely only wants Battler alive. Maria's status as dead or alive while "poisoned", and still in the line of fire when the fireworks blow, is still irrelevant because of the possibility she was just a tool for Yasu's intentions.
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:14   Link #783
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That makes her pretty unsympathetic, though... are we supposed to feel she's justified in poisoning or drugging a nine-year-old girl?
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:16   Link #784
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Is "Maria asked to be killed because she wanted to be with her mother in the Golden Land" an acceptable theory?
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:18   Link #785
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The same could be said about you-know-who in Higurashi.

Then again, the disconnect in emotional states and attachments assuming Beatrice did really like Maria is explainable by a complete segregation in personalities, which returns us to DID. I'm still not properly sold on this notion.
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:20   Link #786
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Is "Maria asked to be killed because she wanted to be with her mother in the Golden Land" an acceptable theory?
I don't think it's moral to kill her over that, and it's crazy to believe that it is. Now, if it's anticipated that no one is going to survive, perhaps, but leaving Battler alive seems to make no sense if so. You can't even guarantee he'll die in the explosion; perhaps he'll accidentally stumble over to Kuwadorian, or just walk out in the woods looking for Kanon and happen to be far enough away, or someone will arrive on a boat and he'll go back for help. I have to think someone either meant for Battler to survive or didn't know about the bomb, intended to kill Battler too, and died before he or she could. Otherwise just leaving him like that, but murdering everyone else (and yourself), doesn't add up.
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:26   Link #787
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Ep4 Kyrie: The solution accorded by Yasu would be "Shannon and Kanon persona-died and Yasu had all the time in the universe to kill and stake Kyrie." That's no locked room, that's just... a room the killer locked behind themselves.

It also throws up a huge question mark about Kyrie's behavior, as she just told Battler a story in which Kanon and Shannon died before she did, and as far as Kyrie seems to know, she's one of the last people still alive. But a Yasu theory basically necessitates Kyrie knowing at this point, because she cannot have seen Kanon and Shannon together (no matter how good an actor, she can't play two people at once).

If Yasu is the murderer hunting her down, it's bizarre to protect her if there's a risk she might go kill Battler too. The whole "believe" speech seems to be Kyrie trying to give Battler the impression that he will take away from Rokkenjima as a survivor. This means Kyrie believes that Battler will not just be immediately thereafter killed by the culprit, as otherwise telling him anything but "watch your back" is going to be futile. Telling him both personas belonging to the culprit which he is aware of are dead is all but guaranteed to get him killed off.

So Kyrie, at least, thinks Battler is going to be alive at the end. Yet she is also willingly complicit in this Yasu thing. The two don't square up if Yasu is the culprit. Obviously, if she isn't, it works fine, although we'd have to explain some reason why Kyrie would consent to being killed and/or staked (perhaps if she was dying anyway, or if she was the killer and asked to tell Battler the gentle lie before Yasu/Shannon killed her for her crimes). Kyrie's death is one that requires someone else still be alive after she is dead. Therefore, Kyrie has to believe that whoever is still alive after she dies won't hurt Battler. It also suggests she does not know about the bomb, as giving him the survivor's burden and not telling him to get the heck outta the blast radius is once again a futile gesture.
That's all explained if Yasu (or whomever the true culprit is) tells Kyrie to tell Battler that and she'll let her live.

Kyrie is shown being perfectly willing to kill, and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to survive. Who's to say she wouldn't also willingly lie to Battler?

You know what?

Kyrie's attitude in Episode 4 doesn't square up at all. She's not only completely nonchalant about the death of Rudolph in front of her very eyes, despite him being the man she desperately spent 18 years longing for faithfully (supposedly). But she's also calm, cool, and collected amongst the other prisoners while during this period.

She doesn't panic in the face of bizarre magic, despite going out of her way to show that it simply isn't physically possible for events to have happened in the timeframe available, and even goes so far as to indicate jealousy of George's devotion to Shannon while viewing his fight with Gaap.

That simply isn't the attitude of someone grieving. There's something extremely wrong with Kyrie's attitude in Episode 4.
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:32   Link #788
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Her attitude is completely wrong for her ep7 portrayal, as well. Let's say she believes Battler will live for whatever reason. She's clearly trying to give him a story that is less tragic than the one she's actually witnessed (especially if she's the cause of it, but hold that aside for now). The only reason Battler really needs to not know is so that Ange will be told that Battler does not know, and they can both live happily in ignorance of the truth (something supported by ep7, albeit through Eva not Battler). That suggests she cares about her children.

In ep7 we're told she doesn't really give a damn about Ange or Battler but used Ange as a means to an end to acquire Rudolf for herself. Ep6 suggests further that she is very possessive of him. But in ep4, she hardly seems to care. She's practically flirting with Krauss the minute both of their spouses are dead.

What's weird is that you can totally accept a Kyrie culprit theory for ep4, but if you do, you pretty much have to reject ep7's shooting spree motive for her altogether because it doesn't fit with her behavior.
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:42   Link #789
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Her attitude is completely wrong for her ep7 portrayal, as well. Let's say she believes Battler will live for whatever reason. She's clearly trying to give him a story that is less tragic than the one she's actually witnessed (especially if she's the cause of it, but hold that aside for now). The only reason Battler really needs to not know is so that Ange will be told that Battler does not know, and they can both live happily in ignorance of the truth (something supported by ep7, albeit through Eva not Battler). That suggests she cares about her children.

In ep7 we're told she doesn't really give a damn about Ange or Battler but used Ange as a means to an end to acquire Rudolf for herself. Ep6 suggests further that she is very possessive of him. But in ep4, she hardly seems to care. She's practically flirting with Krauss the minute both of their spouses are dead.

What's weird is that you can totally accept a Kyrie culprit theory for ep4, but if you do, you pretty much have to reject ep7's shooting spree motive for her altogether because it doesn't fit with her behavior.
No pieces can act in ways which their characters would be unable to, right?

Under what conditions would Kyrie be so emotionless? Was Rudolph's death staged? If so, that strengthens a Kyrie-Rudolph culprit theory? Or perhaps she really is just a sociopath in the first place?

I mean, if we accept the possibility that Kyrie is simply a sociopath in the first place, but not the sociopath we're looking for, then Episode 4 and Episode 7's murder spree makes sense.

We know Kyrie dies, that happens pretty regularly. And she probably isnt the one to set up the bomb in the first place, right? So we can either claim that 1) Kyrie is the culprit, but fails at shooting people so she got taken down before the end, or 2) Kyrie is just criminally insane, but not the culprit, and is therefore a red herring on Ryukishi's part.

Both are equally valid, but if we accept the former, then there's a butt load more questions and issues needing to be answered. And if we accept the latter, that only answers the question of Kyrie's behavior.

I still believe that the entire point of those phone calls was to get Battler to believe in magic, by coercion. "Say this to Battler or I'll blow your head off.", and then killing them anyway. Or something like that.
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Old 2010-08-24, 12:01   Link #790
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As the self-appointed Golden Age specialist here, allow me to try to analyze each rule(and Dine's intentions behind them, as Ryuukishi may reinterpret them)
But while this is a mystery, Golden Age rules probably won't count here. As Ryukishi said almost right from the start, this is not 本格ミステリーVS本格ファンタジー (classical mystery vs. classical fantasy), this is アンチ・ミステリVSアンチ・ファンタジー (anti mystery vs. anti fantasy) and the latter has some different concepts than the first.

Concerning Dine's rules, I would be hoping that either all of them count or none of them. Breaking only a few, without properly implying which have been broken and which not ... that's what I would really count as unfair.


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The problem is the breakdown in Kyrie's knowledge and intentions, whether she thinks Battler is in danger, whether he actually is, and how she feels she should react to that.

For instance: Kyrie and Yasu are chilling in the room where she dies.
There is still a problem with that and it is almost the only problem that comes up and makes the Yasu theory actually problematic.
If Shannon is Yasu, how was she able to kill herself in a way that half her face was ripped off? The only people that could have believable killed themselves would be Kyrie and George, as both of them only have a bullet hole in their forehead.
Yet at least Kyrie was apparently killed some time before Battler met Beatrice on top of the balcony, which would imply that Yasu and therefore Shannon would still have to be alive. That would mean that Kyrie would have to be still alive to kill Shannon afterwards.

Concerning the weapon it's less of a problem. We know that Maria is unobserved for a certain amount of time. If Beatrice were to tell her, to be at a certain room at a certain time and hide a gun, I think she would do it ... she could even have been the one placing the stakes at the end, with the point of fulfilling the sacrifice and being able to call upon the Golden Land.
In the case of her death I vote for suicide, as her death was never explicitly questioned, she is implied to have died of poisining, she is lying on top of her mother. Many things imply that she simply served her purpose and went to the Golden Land. It wouldn't even be exceptionally cruel for a culprit to let her do that if the culprit is convinced that there is no way for Maria to survive.
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Old 2010-08-24, 12:41   Link #791
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I want to ask, during tea party, did Kyrie's gun go malfunction, so she had to bash Jessica's head with the stock of the shotgun.

THat's why when she met Eva again, she knew she had a high chance to be killed?
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Old 2010-08-24, 12:58   Link #792
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There is still a problem with that and it is almost the only problem that comes up and makes the Yasu theory actually problematic.
If Shannon is Yasu, how was she able to kill herself in a way that half her face was ripped off? The only people that could have believable killed themselves would be Kyrie and George, as both of them only have a bullet hole in their forehead.
Yet at least Kyrie was apparently killed some time before Battler met Beatrice on top of the balcony, which would imply that Yasu and therefore Shannon would still have to be alive. That would mean that Kyrie would have to be still alive to kill Shannon afterwards.

Concerning the weapon it's less of a problem. We know that Maria is unobserved for a certain amount of time. If Beatrice were to tell her, to be at a certain room at a certain time and hide a gun, I think she would do it ... she could even have been the one placing the stakes at the end, with the point of fulfilling the sacrifice and being able to call upon the Golden Land.
In the case of her death I vote for suicide, as her death was never explicitly questioned, she is implied to have died of poisining, she is lying on top of her mother. Many things imply that she simply served her purpose and went to the Golden Land. It wouldn't even be exceptionally cruel for a culprit to let her do that if the culprit is convinced that there is no way for Maria to survive.
Regarding the bold, there's a plausible explanation:

1) Shannon/Yasu are the only survivors at the very end, aside from Battler.
2) "Beatrice" uses argument X to convince Maria that it's ok for them to die.
3) Having convinced Maria of X, Maria is then tasked with assisting "Beatrice" as Shannon and then poisoning herself.
4) Shannon uses a gun or other object capable of dealing an appreciable amount of force to destroy half her face. Maria places the stake and hides the gun, or whatever.
5) Maria goes back to the parlor, consumes the poison, and dies with Rosa right there.

Works perfectly.
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Old 2010-08-24, 13:07   Link #793
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Why bother? The cat box will close on everything anyway. It doesn't matter if Battler finds evidence, and it doesn't matter what Battler believes in the hours remaining before he too is killed. Verification would be absolutely impossible. Anyone doing this would simply be insane to have any expectation of a coherent result difference between hiding the weapon and not hiding the weapon.
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Old 2010-08-24, 13:17   Link #794
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Why bother? The cat box will close on everything anyway. It doesn't matter if Battler finds evidence, and it doesn't matter what Battler believes in the hours remaining before he too is killed. Verification would be absolutely impossible. Anyone doing this would simply be insane to have any expectation of a coherent result difference between hiding the weapon and not hiding the weapon.
Maybe Yasu didn't want Battler to think of Shannon as suicidal or a murderer? Hence pinning it all on "Beatrice" and then appearing before Battler in that guise to remind him of his promise to Shannon?

There's a large focus on convincing Battler of magic in Episode 4, and then trying to remind him of his "sin". Therefore, its not too much to presume that hiding the murder weapon from potential discovery by Battler is some kind of last plea to leave a good impression on him. Even if it is just a deception.

"At least he won't think too badly of me..." or something like that. Simply a matter of love for Battler, I guess.

Last edited by TehChron; 2010-08-24 at 13:17. Reason: Clarification
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Old 2010-08-24, 13:45   Link #795
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Why bother? The cat box will close on everything anyway. It doesn't matter if Battler finds evidence, and it doesn't matter what Battler believes in the hours remaining before he too is killed. Verification would be absolutely impossible. Anyone doing this would simply be insane to have any expectation of a coherent result difference between hiding the weapon and not hiding the weapon.
Basically there is no coherent reason to commit any of the murders. If the bomb was delibaretly set off by the same person committing the murders, why go through the pain and danger of killing anybody anyway. Nobody is supposed to know about the bomb and they are supposed to leave on the 6th, so there are 2 nights and ample time to let it explode. Including the fact that nobody ever leaves the mansion grounds or goes into the woods, it would be madness to endanger the plan by committing open and visible murders.
Therefore of course the one committing these murders must be someone who does not know about the existence of a bomb or he does not know about the fact that somebody else knows about it and turned it on.

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I want to ask, during tea party, did Kyrie's gun go malfunction, so she had to bash Jessica's head with the stock of the shotgun.

THat's why when she met Eva again, she knew she had a high chance to be killed?
She mentions to Rudolph that those guns are pretty old and hard to handle and sometimes they don't produce the results they are supposed to do, at least that's what I remember.
This ties in with the guns sometimes going off when only slightly touching the trigger and sometimes just not working properly at all, but the events also showed that Kyrie is not that good at shooting.
I have a hard time to believe that someone who manages to fail shooting Jessica from behind AND fails to kill Eva 2(!) times, is able to shoot and hit from a considerable distance, as the culprit in Episode 1 for example did with Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-08-24, 13:48   Link #796
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Basically there is no coherent reason to commit any of the murders. If the bomb was delibaretly set off by the same person committing the murders, why go through the pain and danger of killing anybody anyway. Nobody is supposed to know about the bomb and they are supposed to leave on the 6th, so there are 2 nights and ample time to let it explode. Including the fact that nobody ever leaves the mansion grounds or goes into the woods, it would be madness to endanger the plan by committing open and visible murders.
Therefore of course the one committing these murders must be someone who does not know about the existence of a bomb or he does not know about the fact that somebody else knows about it and turned it on.


She mentions to Rudolph that those guns are pretty old and hard to handle and sometimes they don't produce the results they are supposed to do, at least that's what I remember.
This ties in with the guns sometimes going off when only slightly touching the trigger and sometimes just not working properly at all, but the events also showed that Kyrie is not that good at shooting.
I have a hard time to believe that someone who manages to fail shooting Jessica from behind AND fails to kill Eva 2(!) times, is able to shoot and hit from a considerable distance, as the culprit in Episode 1 for example did with Natsuhi.
And in episode 6 during Kanon's flashback as he goes to save Battler, he reminisces about the fact Kinzo often let him practice shooting guns. So he could potentially have the skill set necessary, in addition to being the most likely suspect.
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Old 2010-08-24, 15:08   Link #797
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But while this is a mystery, Golden Age rules probably won't count here. As Ryukishi said almost right from the start, this is not 本格ミステリーVS本格ファンタジー (classical mystery vs. classical fantasy), this is アンチ・ミステリVSアンチ・ファンタジー (anti mystery vs. anti fantasy) and the latter has some different concepts than the first.

Concerning Dine's rules, I would be hoping that either all of them count or none of them. Breaking only a few, without properly implying which have been broken and which not ... that's what I would really count as unfair.
Indeed. But Ryuukishi applied Knox fairly well, keeping his changes still enough to represent Knox's original intentions. Save for...One specific rule change that was a rather liberal interpretation from it. He changed the wording of a few of them, but the intention was still there. Mostly. That's why I was analyzing Dine's original intention with the rules to see how they could be reworked into an anti mystery setting. Sorry, I should have made that more clear.

I'm also hoping all of them count or none of them does. But since Will already used a few during episode 7, I would hope that all of them do. Or else it would have been terrible trickery.

Also, a question about episode 7. Is there any reason why Will didn't pull Dine's 12th against Bern's theory about the truth?
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Old 2010-08-24, 15:16   Link #798
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Also, a question about episode 7. Is there any reason why Will didn't pull Dine's 12th against Bern's theory about the truth?
Maybe he did, we just weren't shown that. After Leon runs away, there is an uncertain period where Will fights Bern completely unattended, and catches up with Leon torn up but alive and still capable of fighting.
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Old 2010-08-24, 15:18   Link #799
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Maybe he did, we just weren't shown that. After Leon runs away, there is an uncertain period where Will fights Bern completely unattended, and catches up with Leon torn up but alive and still capable of fighting.
But what in the holy name of Father Brown would Bern's counter to "there is only one culprit" be when she just showed that cluster of murders?

"Only one mastermind, that's what the rule means"?
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Old 2010-08-24, 15:31   Link #800
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But what in the holy name of Father Brown would Bern's counter to "there is only one culprit" be when she just showed that cluster of murders?

"Only one mastermind, that's what the rule means"?
Notice that the issue Will is arguing against is not the Kyrie Rampage in Rokkenjima-Prime, but the Kyrie Rampage in Leon's world, as it is his priority to save Leon and declare that his murder never happened. In that world there is only one culprit and the rule does not apply, so he might not be using it.

Mind you, I suspect Bern is cheating, and nothing interesting actually happens in Leon's world -- but that would mean Claire isn't really the culprit either.
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