AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-08-27, 10:47   Link #941
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
One thing I do find cute about the sub sequence (about the only thing) is Kinzo and B.C. having to communicate between the two sides and each other in a third language entirely. However, the very convenient listing of the languages Kinzo just happens to speak (Japanese, Chinese, and English) make the epitaph solution offered a little too perfect. Then again, Kinzo was already in his 30s or somesuch.

Was English proficiency normal for well-educated men in Japan around that time? The Chinese is easy to explain if he really did live in Taiwan. And I guess you'd be dealing with the British a lot even before the war. Heck, from the outbreak of hostilities in Japan until 1945, Kinzo'd have enough time to just teach himself English.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 10:58   Link #942
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As far as I know Japan could still continue that war for a long while if it weren't for the nuclear bombs.
Thy could, and planned to, make the invasion so costly that it would result in an armistice rather than total surrender.

They even built very interesting bunkers for the occasion, it turns out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsush...l_Headquarters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Was English proficiency normal for well-educated men in Japan around that time? The Chinese is easy to explain if he really did live in Taiwan. And I guess you'd be dealing with the British a lot even before the war. Heck, from the outbreak of hostilities in Japan until 1945, Kinzo'd have enough time to just teach himself English.
Considering that it still isn't normal? Actually, the sources of Kinzo's interest in everything Western are never adequately indicated.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 11:05   Link #943
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I'm more surprised that an italian knew english that well, especially at that time.

But well, all of the regular crew members were totally unable to speak and understand english as it should be expected.

I think it can just be said that Beatrice and Kinzo were exceptional individuals. That's probably why they got along that well.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 11:37   Link #944
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Actually, can anyone explain why Kyrie and Rudolf went on a killing spree in Lyon's world?

There should be no 900 tons of explosives prepared to cover up the mass murder, so why kill?
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 11:45   Link #945
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Because Kyrie's brain imploded and she somehow became convinced that the best thing to do to cover up several accidental deaths was to murder everybody else and then let them explode.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 11:48   Link #946
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Because Kyrie's brain imploded and she somehow became convinced that the best thing to do to cover up several accidental deaths was to murder everybody else and then let them explode.
Are there accidental deaths in Lyon's world? I don't remembered it was mentioned.

Apparently in Lyon's world there were not going to be certain "planned to be used to kill you all if you failed to solve the epitaph" rifles at the underground VIP room
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.

Last edited by ijriims; 2010-08-27 at 12:12.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 13:01   Link #947
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The deaths of Krauss and Natsuhi in the Tea Party were (apparent) accidents. Of course, you never know...
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 13:35   Link #948
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Actually, can anyone explain why Kyrie and Rudolf went on a killing spree in Lyon's world?

There should be no 900 tons of explosives prepared to cover up the mass murder, so why kill?
according to what is shown in the tea party normal world. Kinzo set up the 900 tons of explosive at the time he used to made his gambles to become rich.
He was ready at any time to blow up himself and all of his family should he fail. So this has nothing to do with Lion because this is something that existed before the divergence between the two worlds.
Personally this is something I would put it past Kinzo. What kind of life Beatrice2 would have after all the persons she knows die? Kinzo couldn't be that shortsighted.

Anywhere there is still a problem that I noticed. While the explosive could still be there in Lion's world, there wouldn't be any Beatrice to explain the relatives about the explosive and the mechanism. Why would Kinzo or Genji tell them about that? Bern said that everything in Lion world would progress the same as it went in the normal world. But clearly something is amiss.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 13:44   Link #949
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
An excellent point: Let's say, by this theory, that one day Kinzo decided to end it all and blew up the house. Kuwadorian survives because we know that it's outside the blast radius. But if Beatrice-2 is still alive... what happens to her? Kinzo just blew himself up. Genji and Kumasawa and any other servants hired there may or may not be present at any given time. Worst case scenario, she's just stuck there until... I guess until Kawabata arrives to check out what the heck just happened.

If he cared at all about Beatrice-2 in any way, why would he risk a situation where she's left alone? Wouldn't he, if he were that crazy, want her blown up too?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 14:17   Link #950
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
You know, this might be unintentional but Shkanon violates Dine.

Quote:
14. The method of murder, and the means of detecting it, must be be rational and scientific. That is to say, pseudo-science and purely imaginative and speculative devices are not to be tolerated in the roman policier.
Of course if only the first 12 apply, then it isn't a problem. But if all 20 apply, 14th will be broken since multiple personalities is not exactly a scientific fact. There is a great deal of debate about it.

Unless Shkanon pretends to be two people on purpose instead of for some deeply psychological reason. Now THAT I would love.

Also, did you guys ever hear about the "single red timeline" theory? It's a theory that all reds are not valid for individual games, but for the single truth. If you align each red per chapter from episodes 1-4 you could theoretically get to the truth.

...Okay fine I just made that theory up and I'm sure someone thought of it before and realized it didn't work.

Still, anyone up for helping me separate reds by time/chapter to see if it would get us something close to the truth?
Will Wright is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 14:27   Link #951
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well, there's nothing irrational or unscientific about acting. Suggesting that multiple personalities are involved, or even that the Yasu story actually supports multiple personalities (it doesn't, really, though it is curious all the same), is simply speculative. For all we know it's all true, one character is playing 3+ roles, and is perfectly sane and well aware of the differentiation between all of them and him/herself. That, at least, is perfectly compatible with Dine.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 14:33   Link #952
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
I know, I mentioned as much in my original post. In fact, I would prefer if we got "Shkanon is a screwed up person who does it to torture people" instead of "SHKANON SUFFERED A LOT AND HAS MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES."

It would be beautiful, and I would like the whole Shkanontriceyasu thing if it were just one really messed up individual screwing with everyone.
Will Wright is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 14:48   Link #953
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
I'm just having a hard time buying this person is even logistically capable of being the actual culprit, though.

Some kind of messed up play-actor, maybe.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 15:26   Link #954
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Still, anyone up for helping me separate reds by time/chapter to see if it would get us something close to the truth?
What exactly do you plan to do?

Speaking of red, I had an idea halfway through reading Ep7, but didn't post it yet, now is a good time I guess.

Red is the absolute truth, if we discard it, we have nothing to lean on. However, it is still the product of agreement with the witch, we agree to trust that the statements uttered in red are at least technically true. Trying to interpret red in language other than plain produces, in parallel to the interpretations certain theories want (like personality death Shkanon) spurious nonsense that is hard to deny (Kinzotrice, Battlertrice).

But what if something exists that is more true than red and contradicts red? Golden text at least implies it may in certain cases be such. What would be the conditions for this to work?

Constantly repeated "without love it cannot be seen" produces lots of interpretations, often rather random ones, but there is one interesting behaviour in a love relationship, called "secure base behaviour". In certain cases you take the side of someone you love, even if they are wrong... even against truth.

If this line of thinking has any merit, there should exist a red statement or a set of red statements that need to be disregarded to arrive at the truth. There are probably no more than two or three, and they will probably be syntactically different from the rest. They will also most likely state that someone did something consciously, rather than did not do something, as red usually does.

Any ideas?
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 15:31   Link #955
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
The more I read the Van Dine rules the more I see them incompatible with this story.

Unless they have a very free interpretation, there are quite some blatant infringements. In case they have a free interpretation then I see little point in speculating using them as referral until the game itself show the modified and adapted rules.

We are reaching Ep8 now and at this point the most important mystery that still need to be solved is what happened during those today in Rokkenjima from the 1998 perspective.
However from this perspective there isn't a single body. Is this a mystery at all?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 16:33   Link #956
Geekodot
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However from this perspective there isn't a single body. Is this a mystery at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html
Is guesswork possible or impossible in Umineko no Naku Koro ni?

The genre of this work is probably a serial murder mystery.

However, that does not guarantee that reasoning and guesswork are possible.


Those who enjoy stupid puzzles that are made to be solved can leave now.

Umineko no Naku Koro ni is the worst kind of tale, created without any intention of letting all of
you solve it.


However, to all of the worst kinds of people, who hear that and just want to challenge it more,
welcome.

I am myself sending out this tale to make these worst kinds of people surrender.


No matter what kinds of strange events occur, all of you will try to explain it with humans and tricks,
and deny all mysteries, as the worst kind of human supremacists.

Please, try to explain each one of the many baffling cases with humans and tricks as best you can.


I want to see how far I can penetrate everyone's human supremacy.


The culprit is a witch. All alibis and tricks are magic.

This is not a mystery, but fantasy!


I want to see you surrender and say that while crying bitter tears.


I do not expect a line of reasoning leading to the truth to appear.

I want to find out just how many people can deny the witch until the very end and maintain a 'human
culprit theory'.


In short, this is a tale of a battle between humans and witches.
It clearly states that this is not a mystery, but that stubborn suckers are still welcome to try solving it.

The alternate opening in ep 1-4 (if you can call it that?) also states that this is no mystery.
__________________
Umineko - How it SHOULD've ended...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juEkoLXXoxo
Geekodot is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 17:39   Link #957
Gohan78
Awakened One
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The more I read the Van Dine rules the more I see them incompatible with this story.
I wouldn't apply any Van Dine rules to Umineko other than the three that were explicitly given in red by Will (1st, 7th and 11th).
After all, the Knox Rules were also heavily altered by Ryukishi to fit his tale (especially 3rd and 9th, while 5th was entirely discarded).
__________________
Tibi, magnum Innominandum,
signa stellarum nigrarum
et bufaniformis Sadoquae sigilim.
(De Vermis Mysteriis)
Gohan78 is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 18:07   Link #958
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Yeah, the absence of Knox's 5th suggests not all of Dine applies either. Since we only have a handful of the proposed full number, I would guess we're not done with Will or the Van Dine rules yet, at least until all are clarified (which could only occur in ep8, if ever).
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 18:14   Link #959
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I would guess we're not done with Will or the Van Dine rules yet, at least until all are clarified (which could only occur in ep8, if ever).
OR in his next interview.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-08-27, 18:44   Link #960
Arachanox
Trust the red.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
Could someone explain the nature of the "white text battles" in EP7? How did Wright and Claire accomplish anything if Wright's theories didn't have to be responded to and Claire's statements were not fully trustable?
__________________

Thanks to Tjaard!
Arachanox is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.