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Old 2010-08-30, 16:47   Link #1061
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But ryukishi doesn't, unless it's the most pointed and important lie in the entire series that makes the right answer click properly and the lie is really easy to spot.

He has a reason to lie, but he can't, or there'd be riots.
If Kyrie killed everyone and then said she didn't care about Ange, do you think Battler would tell Ange that? There is more than one character in this story, maybe someone else will present us with the truth.
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Old 2010-08-30, 17:07   Link #1062
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
If Kyrie killed everyone and then said she didn't care about Ange, do you think Battler would tell Ange that? There is more than one character in this story, maybe someone else will present us with the truth.
I don't think there'd be any point to that epilogue if Battler's entire POV after this entire series happened is "lol whatever she's full of crap, the truth is everything was cool, trust me, nah I ain't gonna prove nothing" and then have everything Bern suggested be confirmed.

If delivering on his promise required him to a spin a B.S. story, I'd have to reject him as a protagonist. He's gotta have something better than that up his sleeve for ep8 to even be worth writing.
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Old 2010-08-30, 17:23   Link #1063
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't think there'd be any point to that epilogue if Battler's entire POV after this entire series happened is "lol whatever she's full of crap, the truth is everything was cool, trust me, nah I ain't gonna prove nothing" and then have everything Bern suggested be confirmed.
I think the point of the last part isn't that what Bern said was a lie, only that our perspective of it will shift once we see the heart of the matter. What Bern shows in the Tea Party is probably like reading a newspaper article reporting nothing but the facts of a killing. Knowing motivation can make even brutal acts take on a different light.

In fact, a key scene to me was how Kyrie acted upon finding out Rudolf was dead. To me, I can easily see that being spun in a sort of beautiful (if very, very dark) way. It certainly made me like Kyrie more than I did.
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Old 2010-08-30, 18:29   Link #1064
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
If Kyrie killed everyone and then said she didn't care about Ange, do you think Battler would tell Ange that? There is more than one character in this story, maybe someone else will present us with the truth.
Somehow I don't think Battler would outright lie to Ange if Kyrie and Rudolf are actually the murders. He'd probably say it in a more tactful way than Bern, but he would still tell her the truth. Now if it was Kumasawa, she would lie without a second thought, but Battler imho is different.

Also if he was going to lie, then at that point he would tell a nice story with a happy ending, but from the way he talked he gave me the impression he was going to tell a sad story.
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Old 2010-08-31, 21:36   Link #1065
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It makes you wonder how a story that involves murder doesn't involve some degree of evilness. I can understand the idea that motives may make you see things in a more understanding way - for example, Takano's case, or why Rosa behaves the way she does. However, in the end, murder is still murder. It's not even for defence purposes, but mass murder.

The only way none of them would be evil would be if they all died due to some accident, but that sort of resolution would probably be very tasteless, in my opinion that is.
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Old 2010-08-31, 21:53   Link #1066
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
It makes you wonder how a story that involves murder doesn't involve some degree of evilness. I can understand the idea that motives may make you see things in a more understanding way - for example, Takano's case, or why Rosa behaves the way she does. However, in the end, murder is still murder. It's not even for defence purposes, but mass murder.

The only way none of them would be evil would be if they all died due to some accident, but that sort of resolution would probably be very tasteless, in my opinion that is.
No, I agree.

In fact, I think that the reason for the murders will be tied up in love as a motivating factor. Thatd be a nice twist on the theme after its been harped on as a positive force the entire story.

Last edited by TehChron; 2010-08-31 at 22:08. Reason: Sentence structure failure
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Old 2010-08-31, 22:02   Link #1067
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
It makes you wonder how a story that involves murder doesn't involve some degree of evilness. I can understand the idea that motives may make you see things in a more understanding way - for example, Takano's case, or why Rosa behaves the way she does. However, in the end, murder is still murder. It's not even for defence purposes, but mass murder.

The only way none of them would be evil would be if they all died due to some accident, but that sort of resolution would probably be very tasteless, in my opinion that is.
Not necessarily tasteless, just very, very tragic. Many modern mysteries work that way, they build on the hopes of the reader for a great evil mastermind, who is the root for all evil and for love to save the day, but in the end all you can do is find out the truth. It's not like people can't still be happy after it, at least they know the truth and the dead can finally rest...

Of course there have to be people who did wrong things, maybe even evil things, but evilness does not necessarily have to be the reason for murder.
Sadness, loneliness, love, loyalty, those are all feelings we can understand, the only thing that keeps us from committing murder is because we have options...but in most of these stories the culprits just don't see any options for them left, maybe they don't even have any because of other characters faults.

For example that moment in Episode 1, when Eva is taunting Natsuhi and nobody stands up to help her, her kid is busy with her own problems, deep down she knows that she will never be accepted as a part of the family and that despite the fact that she gave up everything for it...
Would any of us really have been able to judge her if she had snapped and killed Eva? Of course it would have been wrong, of course it would have been sad, because had they sat down and talked, they would have seen how much alike they are...but they didn't and in that scenario they couldn't...

We still have to differentiate between two ways of a mass murder.
There is the method we know from Higurashi, planned slaughter of a great ammount of people, with no regards to their feelings. In that moment Takano stopped being a vulnerable little girl and became evil.
In Umineko there is still the chance that every murder is a distinct act on it's own, only connected by the culprit being the same. They could still all be acts of desperation. Like with Shion in Higurashi, practically the only murder you can count as purely evil is that of Satoko and she regretted doing it the minute it was over.
Of course we don't know for sure who the culprit of Umineko is, yet, but it is still possible that this is all just a string of unfortunate events.
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Old 2010-08-31, 22:12   Link #1068
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Not if a telephone pole is the culprit.

For him the absolute worst thats happened to him is that he's a pampered rich kid with a bright future who's only major failure in life was the fact he got the unreasonably hot maid to be his wife, and she used to be into his significantly more awesome younger cousin back when they were kids.

I mean, seriously. Im honestly betting that George is the mastermind behind the killings themselves, and he better have a damn interesting motivation for it. Other possible culprits I just dont see happening.
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Old 2010-08-31, 22:57   Link #1069
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Not if a telephone pole is the culprit.
I never got the telephone pole joke...must have missed it or must have came from 4ch. Mind explaining it to me? Please...

Quote:
For him the absolute worst thats happened to him is that he's a pampered rich kid with a bright future who's only major failure in life was the fact he got the unreasonably hot maid to be his wife, and she used to be into his significantly more awesome younger cousin back when they were kids.
Well, you can see it from that side, or you can see his perspective.
He has been born to an overbearing mother, whose only goal is to live her dream of becoming family head (on a remote island somewhere of the coast) through her son.
He has pretty much his whole life planned out by her, starting with what he learns, his freetime activities, who he is going to marry, even if that means scaring off any prospect of love that doesn't fit her idea of his future.
His father is a spineless wimp, who can't even stand up to his own wife, if he thinks she's being to hard on their son. The only thing he does is joke about the situation and tries to laugh off every problem in sight, while his son is desperately unhappy.
His whole childhood he had his younger cousin jumping in front of him, having more freedom to decide what to do, being better looking, having more friends and having parents who actually seemed to care about him and not about what he is to become. Still that younger cousin decided to run off at the slightest sight of instability in his life, which was the first chance for George to shine among his cousins.

You know, there's always 2 sides to a medal and I think you can sketch such a map for almost everybody on the island.
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Old 2010-08-31, 23:13   Link #1070
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
I never got the telephone pole joke...must have missed it or must have came from 4ch. Mind explaining it to me? Please...
Ange outright compares him to a telephone pole during Episode 6, during the her reading of George's "confession".
Quote:
Well, you can see it from that side, or you can see his perspective.
He has been born to an overbearing mother, whose only goal is to live her dream of becoming family head (on a remote island somewhere of the coast) through her son.
He has pretty much his whole life planned out by her, starting with what he learns, his freetime activities, who he is going to marry, even if that means scaring off any prospect of love that doesn't fit her idea of his future.
His father is a spineless wimp, who can't even stand up to his own wife, if he thinks she's being to hard on their son. The only thing he does is joke about the situation and tries to laugh off every problem in sight, while his son is desperately unhappy.
His whole childhood he had his younger cousin jumping in front of him, having more freedom to decide what to do, being better looking, having more friends and having parents who actually seemed to care about him and not about what he is to become. Still that younger cousin decided to run off at the slightest sight of instability in his life, which was the first chance for George to shine among his cousins.

You know, there's always 2 sides to a medal and I think you can sketch such a map for almost everybody on the island.
Yes, poor George.

Battler, on the other hand, rather than assume the fetal position at the first turbulent moment of his life, went the ultimate rebel route and told his father where to shove it when Rudolf married Kyrie practically before Asumu was put into the ground.

Screw being rich(?)!

And George didnt just seize an opportunity, he apparently made it as well, taking advantage of Battler's absence to woo the maid that had ignored him and his "greatness" when they were younger.

Every murderer thinks they're justified. Doesnt make the ones with such ridiculously flimsy justifications any less of a sociopath, though.
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Old 2010-08-31, 23:14   Link #1071
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
I never got the telephone pole joke...must have missed it or must have came from 4ch. Mind explaining it to me? Please...:heh
It's from episode 6. Ange is joking about George being a boring person by comparing him to a telephone pole.

Spoiler for unspeaking telephone pole:
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Old 2010-08-31, 23:48   Link #1072
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Yes, poor George.

Battler, on the other hand, rather than assume the fetal position at the first turbulent moment of his life, went the ultimate rebel route and told his father where to shove it when Rudolf married Kyrie practically before Asumu was put into the ground.

Screw being rich(?)!
Well, I don't know if I wouldn't actually call Battler's act hotheaded and stupid instead of courageous. He did not consider it one moment how Rudolph felt about the whole situation, maybe he loved Kyrie all along, but the family (Kinzo) favoured Asumu and he just had to marry her.
Of course you can't expect a teenager to think about their parents feelings instead of their own, especially if one of them died, but even here there are two sides to that discussion. Battler also assumed a form of 'fetal position' because he just ran out on his family instead of actually trying to communicate with his father. He is as uncommunicative and ignorant than any other member of the family, just his approach is different. For several years he favoured to completely bail on his family and people who seemed to care about him, because he was too stubborn to accept that his mother died.

I would never say that George is better, but everybody on the island made mistakes and Battler is no blazing example of goodness either.

Quote:
And George didnt just seize an opportunity, he apparently made it as well, taking advantage of Battler's absence to woo the maid that had ignored him and his "greatness" when they were younger.

Every murderer thinks they're justified. Doesnt make the ones with such ridiculously flimsy justifications any less of a sociopath, though.
Flimsy justification is always a question of perspective, but that is obviously something that regards personal moral values as well. If you believe in a universal moral that upholds society and forbids us to kill, of course, then they are immoral. In fact of course they are immoral, but morality has nothing to do with being able to understand someone who is desperate.

I think what murder mysteries can show us, among other things, is that there is more to murder than just a question of good and evil. If you just search for the 'evil mastermind' who murdered the innocent victims, then you will often end of with the wrong solution.
Sociopath is a word that many seem to have grown to throw easily around if it comes to murder, but I think it's just a quick way to brush such things off as something that could just never happen to them.
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Old 2010-09-01, 00:13   Link #1073
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Well, I don't know if I wouldn't actually call Battler's act hotheaded and stupid instead of courageous. He did not consider it one moment how Rudolph felt about the whole situation, maybe he loved Kyrie all along, but the family (Kinzo) favoured Asumu and he just had to marry her.
Of course you can't expect a teenager to think about their parents feelings instead of their own, especially if one of them died, but even here there are two sides to that discussion. Battler also assumed a form of 'fetal position' because he just ran out on his family instead of actually trying to communicate with his father. He is as uncommunicative and ignorant than any other member of the family, just his approach is different. For several years he favoured to completely bail on his family and people who seemed to care about him, because he was too stubborn to accept that his mother died.
No, he didn't "abandon everyone that apparently cared about him", the exact circumstances have yet to be shown. We should avoid commenting on just how far that abandonment went.

But he did it, not because of denial about his mother's death, but because he couldn't forgive his father for the disrespect shown to her by marrying Kyrie so soon after she passed. It was something he found to be morally repulsive.
Quote:
I would never say that George is better, but everybody on the island made mistakes and Battler is no blazing example of goodness either.
Hes certainly more awesome. Which is just as good as being a blazing example of goodness, in my book.


Quote:
Flimsy justification is always a question of perspective, but that is obviously something that regards personal moral values as well. If you believe in a universal moral that upholds society and forbids us to kill, of course, then they are immoral. In fact of course they are immoral, but morality has nothing to do with being able to understand someone who is desperate.

I think what murder mysteries can show us, among other things, is that there is more to murder than just a question of good and evil. If you just search for the 'evil mastermind' who murdered the innocent victims, then you will often end of with the wrong solution.
Sociopath is a word that many seem to have grown to throw easily around if it comes to murder, but I think it's just a quick way to brush such things off as something that could just never happen to them.
Yes.

Willing to kill his own mother for no other reason than to "blaze a new path forward" or whatever. Manipulating someone into falling for him by convincing them that he is their only shot at happiness.

Totally valid scenario for arguing moral relativity.

Listen, Im not so naive as to claim that violence is never the answer, but you know...there are times when it's simply not necessary, by any stretch of the imagination.

Murdering people when there is no immediate threat to your life or the safety of others falls under the latter designation.
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Old 2010-09-01, 00:44   Link #1074
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But he did it, not because of denial about his mother's death, but because he couldn't forgive his father for the disrespect shown to her by marrying Kyrie so soon after she passed. It was something he found to be morally repulsive.
Hes certainly more awesome. Which is just as good as being a blazing example of goodness, in my book.
Some find him awesome, some a blindly idealistic child with no grasp of the real world, I have grown to think that this line, in Battler's case, is pretty thin.
This disrespect you speak of would only exist if he ever loved Asumu in the first place, which is not proven, of course neither is the opposite. Why does he assume that his mother is right and his father is wrong? Because she is dead and can't do anything wrong anymore...but who says she never did anything wrong?

That is of course also because Battler so far has refused to ever adress the background of either Rudolph or Kyrie ... and that is exactly why the end of EP7 was able to strike us and Ange so hard. Battler refused to sketch out those two any further than necessary (possibly affraid to find out a truth that he already knows or suspects more about than we do) and this makes it so absolutely possible to sketch them as homicidal maniacs, because we have never really started to adress them.

Wether the end of EP7 was actually really the truth, a fragment of truth or a lie is beside the point here. It just shows how affraid Battler was, even in his own game, to show us anything about Rudolph and Kyrie, yet he was ready, without hesitation, to paint them as murderers or at least accomplices back in Episode 3.
I think there is a reason why so far we know the least about those two...not because they are culprits (at least not the central one) I think, but because they would shed a new light on the whole story...I think it's been hinted at enough already, that Asumu wasn't the innocent angle she is made out to be by Battler's actions.

Quote:
Listen, Im not so naive as to claim that violence is never the answer, but you know...there are times when it's simply not necessary, by any stretch of the imagination.

Murdering people when there is no immediate threat to your life or the safety of others falls under the latter designation.
You are right there and that is exactly why I can't exactly believe in any George-culprit theories. It's very easy to suspect him, because he has an obvious motive and moments where he flies into almost sociopathic fury because of Shannon (Episode 1 in the study where he says he could kill for her, or Episode 4 where he vows to murder his family for her).
But still he could escape his life, technically even take Shannon with him if he really wanted to. It would even be easier than having to resort to actual murder.
He also has perfect alibis for almost every murder in every scenario, which would call for an accomplice who is doing more work than he himself and who would need a motive on his or her own. Shannon would come to mind, but again, if she wanted to run away with George, why not just do it?

Of course the cheap 'crazy lover' solution could be the right one, but you would still have to find solutions to several questions in the scenarios that couldn't be solved with George culprit or need heavy pre-arrangements.
  1. If Shannon is not an active accomplice, why does she write the letters? (She did not plan to send them does not count, because they are IN a bottle)
  2. Who commited the murders after the 1st twilight in Episode 1?
  3. Who killed Kumasawa and Nanjo in Episode 2? And why did Shannon die first, then Gohda and then George?
  4. In Episode 3, was Rudolph also an accomplice when he checked Shannon's body or did George kill the servants? If yes, why?
  5. In Episode 4, how could he be found in the arbour, when Beatrice was still alive in the mansion? Why should the culprit die before the last victim?
  6. Why should he show pity when killing Maria (she has no gruesome death in any of the first 4) but not Shannon?

I agree there are similar problems with the Shkannon theory, which is why I'm still working on a proper one. Especially the problem of Shannon's corpse being found in a way that needs special tampering that cannot be down by herself (stake in Episode 2&4, her body turning up on 1st twilight in 3 and half her face missing in Episode 4).
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Old 2010-09-01, 03:02   Link #1075
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Some find him awesome, some a blindly idealistic child with no grasp of the real world, I have grown to think that this line, in Battler's case, is pretty thin.
This disrespect you speak of would only exist if he ever loved Asumu in the first place, which is not proven, of course neither is the opposite. Why does he assume that his mother is right and his father is wrong? Because she is dead and can't do anything wrong anymore...but who says she never did anything wrong?

That is of course also because Battler so far has refused to ever adress the background of either Rudolph or Kyrie ... and that is exactly why the end of EP7 was able to strike us and Ange so hard. Battler refused to sketch out those two any further than necessary (possibly affraid to find out a truth that he already knows or suspects more about than we do) and this makes it so absolutely possible to sketch them as homicidal maniacs, because we have never really started to adress them.

Wether the end of EP7 was actually really the truth, a fragment of truth or a lie is beside the point here. It just shows how affraid Battler was, even in his own game, to show us anything about Rudolph and Kyrie, yet he was ready, without hesitation, to paint them as murderers or at least accomplices back in Episode 3.
I think there is a reason why so far we know the least about those two...not because they are culprits (at least not the central one) I think, but because they would shed a new light on the whole story...I think it's been hinted at enough already, that Asumu wasn't the innocent angle she is made out to be by Battler's actions.
Hrm, I think they may just be a red herring, but thats just me.

Quote:
You are right there and that is exactly why I can't exactly believe in any George-culprit theories. It's very easy to suspect him, because he has an obvious motive and moments where he flies into almost sociopathic fury because of Shannon (Episode 1 in the study where he says he could kill for her, or Episode 4 where he vows to murder his family for her).
But still he could escape his life, technically even take Shannon with him if he really wanted to. It would even be easier than having to resort to actual murder.
He also has perfect alibis for almost every murder in every scenario, which would call for an accomplice who is doing more work than he himself and who would need a motive on his or her own. Shannon would come to mind, but again, if she wanted to run away with George, why not just do it?

Of course the cheap 'crazy lover' solution could be the right one, but you would still have to find solutions to several questions in the scenarios that couldn't be solved with George culprit or need heavy pre-arrangements.
  1. If Shannon is not an active accomplice, why does she write the letters? (She did not plan to send them does not count, because they are IN a bottle)
  2. Who commited the murders after the 1st twilight in Episode 1?
  3. Who killed Kumasawa and Nanjo in Episode 2? And why did Shannon die first, then Gohda and then George?
  4. In Episode 3, was Rudolph also an accomplice when he checked Shannon's body or did George kill the servants? If yes, why?
  5. In Episode 4, how could he be found in the arbour, when Beatrice was still alive in the mansion? Why should the culprit die before the last victim?
  6. Why should he show pity when killing Maria (she has no gruesome death in any of the first 4) but not Shannon?

I agree there are similar problems with the Shkannon theory, which is why I'm still working on a proper one. Especially the problem of Shannon's corpse being found in a way that needs special tampering that cannot be down by herself (stake in Episode 2&4, her body turning up on 1st twilight in 3 and half her face missing in Episode 4).
Ive addressed those issues before, actually.
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Old 2010-09-01, 03:15   Link #1076
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Ive addressed those issues before, actually.
You did? In recent posts or further back? Could you refer me back to those, please?
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Old 2010-09-01, 03:18   Link #1077
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Not necessarily tasteless, just very, very tragic. Many modern mysteries work that way, they build on the hopes of the reader for a great evil mastermind, who is the root for all evil and for love to save the day, but in the end all you can do is find out the truth. It's not like people can't still be happy after it, at least they know the truth and the dead can finally rest...
I really have no problem with the cold hard truth. However, Battler one said this one wasn't a sad or pain story. Of course, he never said it was a happy one. However, I don't see how can this be a tragedy when it is not sad nor painful.

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Of course there have to be people who did wrong things, maybe even evil things, but evilness does not necessarily have to be the reason for murder.
Sadness, loneliness, love, loyalty, those are all feelings we can understand, the only thing that keeps us from committing murder is because we have options...but in most of these stories the culprits just don't see any options for them left, maybe they don't even have any because of other characters faults.
Yeah, but whether evilness is the reason behind the murders, that doesn't change the fact that cold murder happened in the island... mass murder to boot. I really cannot see how a person involved in this cannot be seen as evil, despite their motives. However, Battler said no one was evil.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
For example that moment in Episode 1, when Eva is taunting Natsuhi and nobody stands up to help her, her kid is busy with her own problems, deep down she knows that she will never be accepted as a part of the family and that despite the fact that she gave up everything for it...
Would any of us really have been able to judge her if she had snapped and killed Eva? Of course it would have been wrong, of course it would have been sad, because had they sat down and talked, they would have seen how much alike they are...but they didn't and in that scenario they couldn't...
I can get Natsuhi's frustration and inferiority complex, but I honestly don't see how that could excuse her from committing murder. Even if she killed out of frustration or pain, she'd still be killing an innocent person. For me, she's evil disregarding her motive.

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We still have to differentiate between two ways of a mass murder.
There is the method we know from Higurashi, planned slaughter of a great ammount of people, with no regards to their feelings. In that moment Takano stopped being a vulnerable little girl and became evil.
So? Natsuhi would be okay because she killed spontaneously, yet Takano is evil because she planned it, despite the fact both of them killed due to frustration - not to mention Takano's case was far worse than Natsuhi's? I honestly cannot agree.

I swear, I could understand if they killed out of self-defence or if they did it in order to protect someone else (i.e. assuming the ones they killed were about to kill them). However, I don't see how many other situations in which anyone would slaughter a lot of people (their own family to boot) and not being considered evil.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
They could still all be acts of desperation. Like with Shion in Higurashi, practically the only murder you can count as purely evil is that of Satoko and she regretted doing it the minute it was over.
Shion killed because she was under the influence of the Hinamizawa Syndrome, though.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Of course we don't know for sure who the culprit of Umineko is, yet, but it is still possible that this is all just a string of unfortunate events.
I really cannot see how this whole "no one is evil" yet massive murder happens, without some sort of vapid motivation behind. I mean, they could be motivated by sorrow, jealousy, whatever, and I still don't see how that'd make them any less evil. Maybe I'm just too rational and I cannot see things with love, but hey, only 15 people died, it's not as if that matters, no?

Naturally, one could say that there's no such thing as an inherently evil person, because even a person that does a lot of evil can do good too, and I agree. However, the issue at hand is whether these actions can be considered evil or not, and I honestly see no reason not to considering this massacre evil.
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Old 2010-09-01, 03:25   Link #1078
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Not necessarily tasteless, just very, very tragic. Many modern mysteries work that way, they build on the hopes of the reader for a great evil mastermind, who is the root for all evil and for love to save the day, but in the end all you can do is find out the truth. It's not like people can't still be happy after it, at least they know the truth and the dead can finally rest...
I really have no problem with the cold hard truth. However, Battler said this one wasn't a sad or painful story. Of course, he never said it was a happy one. However, I don't see how can this be a tragedy when it is not sad nor painful.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Of course there have to be people who did wrong things, maybe even evil things, but evilness does not necessarily have to be the reason for murder.
Sadness, loneliness, love, loyalty, those are all feelings we can understand, the only thing that keeps us from committing murder is because we have options...but in most of these stories the culprits just don't see any options for them left, maybe they don't even have any because of other characters faults.
Yeah, but whether evilness is the reason behind the murders, that doesn't change the fact that cold murder happened in the island... mass murder to boot. I really cannot see how a person involved in this cannot be seen as evil, despite their motives. However, Battler said no one was evil.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
For example that moment in Episode 1, when Eva is taunting Natsuhi and nobody stands up to help her, her kid is busy with her own problems, deep down she knows that she will never be accepted as a part of the family and that despite the fact that she gave up everything for it...
Would any of us really have been able to judge her if she had snapped and killed Eva? Of course it would have been wrong, of course it would have been sad, because had they sat down and talked, they would have seen how much alike they are...but they didn't and in that scenario they couldn't...
I can get Natsuhi's frustration and inferiority complex, but I honestly don't see how that could excuse her from committing murder. Even if she killed out of frustration or pain, she'd still be killing an innocent person. For me, she's evil disregarding her motive.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
We still have to differentiate between two ways of a mass murder.
There is the method we know from Higurashi, planned slaughter of a great ammount of people, with no regards to their feelings. In that moment Takano stopped being a vulnerable little girl and became evil.
So? Natsuhi would be okay because she killed spontaneously, yet Takano is evil because she planned it, despite the fact both of them killed due to frustration - not to mention Takano's case was far worse than Natsuhi's? I honestly cannot agree.

I swear, I could understand if they killed out of self-defence or if they did it in order to protect someone else (i.e. assuming the ones they killed were about to kill them). However, I don't see how many other situations in which anyone would slaughter a lot of people (their own family to boot) and not being considered evil.

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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
They could still all be acts of desperation. Like with Shion in Higurashi, practically the only murder you can count as purely evil is that of Satoko and she regretted doing it the minute it was over.
Shion killed because she was under the influence of the Hinamizawa Syndrome, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Of course we don't know for sure who the culprit of Umineko is, yet, but it is still possible that this is all just a string of unfortunate events.
I really cannot see how this whole "no one is evil" yet massive murder happens, without some sort of vapid motivation behind. I mean, they could be motivated by sorrow, jealousy, whatever, and I still don't see how that'd make them any less evil. Maybe I'm just too rational and I cannot see things with love, but hey, only 15 people died, it's not as if that matters, no?

Naturally, one could say that there's no such thing as an inherently evil person, because even a person that does a lot of evil can do good too, and I agree. However, the issue at hand is whether these actions can be considered evil or not, and I honestly see no reason not to considering this massacre evil.
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Old 2010-09-01, 05:43   Link #1079
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Yeah, but whether evilness is the reason behind the murders, that doesn't change the fact that cold murder happened in the island... mass murder to boot. I really cannot see how a person involved in this cannot be seen as evil, despite their motives. However, Battler said no one was evil.
Well that depends on your definition of when exactly a person or an action is evil. Is a person automatically evil because he or she commits an evil deed, or is just the action evil and the person is just tilting towards a direction on a scale?
For me there is no such thing as inherently evil people, well very few and even they are often so disfigured by legends and myths that you can't tell the real person from fiction anymore, just as well as there are no inherently good people.

And evil person, for me, would be a person who does evil things just for the sake of being evil. Like if for example, Rosa went around the island and just killed all people because it is such an evil thing to do and she enjoys being evil so much. Of course killing people is an evil thing to do nonetheless, the question is wether a person did it for the sake of doing it, or for some other reason and was just to stupid, incapable, weak, disillusioned or whatever to do it.

Quote:
So? Natsuhi would be okay because she killed spontaneously, yet Takano is evil because she planned it, despite the fact both of them killed due to frustration - not to mention Takano's case was far worse than Natsuhi's? I honestly cannot agree.
But let's see it from another perspective.
Natsuhi lived together with those people for all those years and did her best to fit in, yet she never did, she even gave birth to a daughter that does not at all fulfill the expectations of the family and has a sister-in-law that constantly rubs it in her face how a failure-at-life Natsuhi is. For her it felt like she acchieved nothing for herself and nobody cared for who she was.

Takano stopped thinking in human perspectives from a certain moment on. Her life was equally tragic and it is understandable what became of her, but on a scale I would still call her the more evil one. Instead of wanting to cure people (which was what her grandfather wanted) she only wanted to win her bet against god and stopped caring for people all together, they became her toys during those last few years. She not only killed them, but robbed them of their humanity.

Of course we don't know the scope of the true cuplprit's plan in Umineko yet, so I don't know wether s/he really is less evil (in an empirical sense), but there is a chance s/he might be.

Quote:
Shion killed because she was under the influence of the Hinamizawa Syndrome, though.
But that is also only a higher output of stress hormones that heightens paranoia. In the end Ryukishi only made it more likely for something to occur that happens to many mass murderers.

Quote:
However, the issue at hand is whether these actions can be considered evil or not, and I honestly see no reason not to considering this massacre evil.
Exactly, but does an evil act make a person evil? That's a question that was adressed so many times during the series, wasn't it?
Did Rosa do evil things? Definitely! Is she a bad mother? Maybe. Is she an evil person? No!
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Old 2010-09-01, 08:33   Link #1080
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Murder is never justified under the input circumstances existing in the closed-off setting of Umineko. There is not one single valid reason for any person on the island to take the life of any other person, unless that death was because the person killed was going to kill others themselves (i.e. self-defense, but then we just shift the question of why murder was planned to the person who was killed).

I mean, murder may be understandable, but it's rarely if ever justified. If the true culprit has an intent to kill everyone, it's even less likely that there is any valid justification. No matter who you have a grudge on, even in broad strokes, there will always be somebody you have no reason to kill:
  • If you hate the family, then leave the servants out of it. They just work here. Even if you think they're pawns of the family, Gohda isn't, so at least one of them has nothing to do with that grudge.
  • If you hate the siblings, there's no reason to harm their children. In fact, the Ushiromiya Group might well be better off under their guidance, as they at least initially appear to be better people than their parents.
  • If you for some reason want to kill the servants, pick them off when they're off duty. Why involve the family?
  • If you hate Kinzo... well, he's dead. Sorry.
You can start spinning a line about how you had particular beefs but other characters "got in the way," but at that point you're just admitting that you're a sociopath who trapped him/herself in a situation where those killings of necessity were required to get away with your crime.

In short, the very best a culprit can hope for is a justified - but still wrong - reason to kill every single person, as failure to justify even one killing means you intended that somebody die who had nothing to do with it. The old "Love Killer" theory is about the only thing that ever did this, and it might still exist as the "Quantum Suicide Beatrice" idea that cropped up a few pages back. Otherwise I really can't think of a good justification for any one character that isn't pretty much flat-out sociopathy and evil.
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