AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-05, 10:02   Link #1141
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Heh, I'm sorry but the connection is very far-fetched. The episode of the servant that got injured happened very recently, since the portrait was already displayed. However Yasu's injury goes back to when she was a newborn baby. There's at least a 17 years difference.
Was the portrait already displayed? I got the impression that the story of the servant could be older, as a handed-down anecdote, but maybe I'm misremembering the context. I know that the baby was said to be injured, but it would be interesting if the injury referred to in the "flashback" Lyon sees near the end was not referring to the same injury--the scene doesn't give us any context in that particular case.

But yes, the connection is feeling a bit strained now.

On a side note, I just re-watched all the Umineko Motion Graphics in reverse order, and it was a bit unnerving how many of the selected quotes used in them seemed to fit together after finishing Requiem. It feels so....close. If the whole Yasu/Lyon thing is a troll (and I'm not saying it is or isn't--I remain on the fence for now), it certainly is a good enough one to let the theatergoers sleep easily in the meantime. But I'm not ready to stop thinking yet.
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 10:17   Link #1142
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Yep it was revealed in EP6:

Jessica: "Yeah, was it last year or the year before? Didn't one servant fall down some stairs and get so badly injured that they quit? Wasn't there a rumor that it was Beatrice's curse?` Ihhihihihi~!"

Jessica told it like a ghost story, trying to scare Erika, but Erika just laughed disdainfully.

Battler: "C, come on, that's creepy... It was probably just an accident, right? Just a coincidence?"

George: "......It happened just after Grandfather had this portrait hung here, so it was probably the year before last. ......In fact, if I remember, this here is the staircase that servant fell down, right?"
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 10:20   Link #1143
Kitsu
The unlucky one
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
Quote:
Battler: "C, come on, that's creepy... It was probably just an accident, right? Just a coincidence?"

George: "......It happened just after Grandfather had this portrait hung here, so it was probably the year before last. ......In fact, if I remember, this here is the staircase that servant fell down, right?"
And this made me wonder...
What if there was a real servant called Shannon who was nice to Yasu? You know one time one of the seven maids of purgatory called out both Shannon and Yasu. So what if the servant who fell down the stairs was the real Shannon and Yasu then took her place as Shannon?
__________________
Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara
Kitsu is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 10:26   Link #1144
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
While I think it's possible that a real Shannon existed, I don't think it's possible that it's the servant that fell from the stairs.

1976 is the year where we see Shannon in Yasu's memories. So if this Shannon was still working in 1984 she'd have been working for 8 years (at least), which is something unusual.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:07   Link #1145
cmos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
But in earlier episodes they say, that the servant fell down even before Shannon started working there and nobody objects:

Ep1 on the beach with all cousins:
Shannon: `"...Yes. I heard that, just before I began working, someone who spoke badly about Beatrice-sama fell down the stairs and quit after receiving a large injury to their back. Because of that, there was a rumor between the servants that Beatrice-sama's anger had been brought down upon this person..."


Battler in the kitchen:
Kanon: "Beatrice-sama sometimes changes her form into glittering butterflies and shows herself. ......On the rare occasion that you spot them somewhere in the mansion, there is a rule that you absolutely mustn't chase after them. It is whispered that you will meet with disaster if you follow them. ...In fact, there was a servant who broke that rule and quit because of a great injury."

Ep2 George and Shannon in the arbor:
Shannon: "......For us servants, Beatrice-sama is another master of this mansion. ......Some say something like we were influenced by the Master and spread that rumor.........but since the time I started working here, the story of Beatrice-sama was already whispered about."
George: "I heard about it before. ...There was a servant who didn't respect her, was cursed, and actually had an accident."

Ep3 Gohda in the kitchen:
"So, if you make fun of the witch of the portrait, there is a curse. ......It seems that there was even a servant who received a serious injury and quit. ...I'd hate to be injured. I am already this old. I probably wouldn't be granted a workplace this hospitable again... Aaah. Witch of the portrait. I'm working sincerely, so please give me some peace."
cmos is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:22   Link #1146
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Heh, I'm sorry but the connection is very far-fetched. The episode of the servant that got injured happened very recently, since the portrait was already displayed. However Yasu's injury goes back to when she was a newborn baby. There's at least a 17 years difference.
The story existed already when Gohda started working at Rokkenjima, because he adresses it in his TIP, so the accident probably happened around the same time as Yasu solved the Epitaph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos
If that is more recent injury, I think that she would know that they saved her for a long time already and maybe somehow get over it. It makes more sense if the injury was when she wasn't conscious and therefore didn't know until recently that they saved her.
And that also is not neccessarily the case. The question is how believable it is to hide a hideous scar that convinces someone that he is unable to be loved from a person for about 16 or 17 years. And if Yasu actually knew about that scar, there is no sense why she would freak out about it after her Episode with Battler.

That is what bothered me. What kind of injury could they have hidden from Yasu, that actually convinces her immediatly that she would have been better off dead but at the same time was unknown to her for such a long time?!
An internal injury of the reproductive organs seemed possible, but still quite farfetched. There is also no apparent reason why she would be mad about having been saved as an infant...
If she was actually the person falling down those stairs and suffered a serious injury that disfigured her it qould explain why she would be mad at the servants saving her. She would have now forever lost the right for love and in her eyes lost Battler forever (giving her a reason to give Shannon and Kanon a chance at love).

It also explains the conveniently placed story about the servant suffering that injury, especially when at least in Episode 1 and 3 it is Shannon who brings it up.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:24   Link #1147
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Uhmmm the other sentences do not necessarily imply that the maid fell long time ago, but the first one does.

This is strange. Isn't Shannon mixing up the story of the maid that fell from the cliff with the story of the maid that fell from the stairs?


Quote:
That is what bothered me. What kind of injury could they have hidden from Yasu, that actually convinces her immediatly that she would have been better off dead but at the same time was unknown to her for such a long time?!
It's not necessarily true that Yasu was never aware of her injury. That scene could be simply explained because only at that moment Yasu learned how she received that injury and under which circumstances.
In fact I believe it's most probable that she knew and that's why she was given a single bedroom while every other servant got a double or even a triple.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:39   Link #1148
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Uhmmm the other sentences do not necessarily imply that the maid fell long time ago, but the first one does.

This is strange. Isn't Shannon mixing up the story of the maid that fell from the cliff with the story of the maid that fell from the stairs?




It's not necessarily true that Yasu was never aware of her injury. That scene could be simply explained because only at that moment Yasu learned how she received that injury and under which circumstances.
In fact I believe it's most probable that she knew and that's why she was given a single bedroom while every other servant got a double or even a triple.
The inconsistency is a bit odd, perhaps a reflection of how anecdotes change in the telling over time from person to person. But then which one is true? :/

Also as for the length of Shannon's employment, I remember in one of the prior arcs (I forget the specific one) Battler introduced her as having worked at the mansion for ten years/from the age of six...which struck me as rather unbelievable back at the time! But this would certainly explain why the rest of the servants were at a loss why this kid was working there and going to school.
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:43   Link #1149
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Umm, excuse me and sorry if I sound silly now.

Why is everyone talking about any scar? I don't remember any scar being mentioned in the game and Yasu found out and made her despaired about.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:45   Link #1150
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
The story existed already when Gohda started working at Rokkenjima, because he adresses it in his TIP, so the accident probably happened around the same time as Yasu solved the Epitaph.
...which definitely happened after Gohda started working on Rokkenjima.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:47   Link #1151
Volcanic
fire of fires
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Umm, excuse me and sorry if I sound silly now.

Why is everyone talking about any scar? I don't remember any scar being mentioned in the game and Yasu found out and made her despaired about.
Yasu, if I remember correctly, says that after the fall the injury left her "unable to love". We're interpreting that as some sort of scar to her chest or (cough) genitals, that would stunt her growth, as mentioned in the game, and possibly obscure her gender (as shown by Leon's ambiguous gender).
Volcanic is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:53   Link #1152
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Hmmm...A permanent scar doesn't get bigger as your body gets bigger too. And since the scar was inflited during infantile, it cannot be that big. So the question is what wound that is not really big but enough to make Yasu says "unable to love", that so?
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:53   Link #1153
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
Yasu, if I remember correctly, says that after the fall the injury left her "unable to love". We're interpreting that as some sort of scar to her chest or (cough) genitals, that would stunt her growth, as mentioned in the game, and possibly obscure her gender (as shown by Leon's ambiguous gender).
Well, that's part of the thing. We see this as one of the quick flashes before Lyon is sent to be shot by Kyrie. But it's unclear why Lyon sees this, when it took place, and it never mentions the fall specifically, just protesting to Nanjo and Genji as being left in this "unable to love" state.
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:58   Link #1154
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Uhmm let's see...
We see a flashback with Genji and Nanjo. They keep silent all the time. The one speaking is apparently Yasu/Beatrice.

どうして…!! どうしてあなたたちは私を助けたんですか?!
Why! Why you saved me?!

どうして死なせてくれなかったんですか?! 私はあの時の大怪我で、……こんな体で生きさせられている!!  こんな体で、生きていたくなんかなかった!!
Why you didn't let me die?! At the time I received that big injury you decided to made me live with this body!! I would have never wanted to live with this body!

こんな、恋をすることも出来ない体で……!! そんなの、そんなの、生きる価値がないんじゃないですか?! そんなのニンゲンじゃない…!! 家具じゃな いですか!!
With this body unfitted to love!! Is... is there any worth in living like this?! This isn't a human body!! It's furniture!!

そう、私は、家具……! 家具なんだ…!!
Yes, I'm furniture! I'm furniture!!

 どうして、………私をあの時に死なせてくれなかったんですかッ!! ぅわぁああああぁあああああぁああぁ ああ……!!!
Why.... you didn't let me die at that time!! Uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:58   Link #1155
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Uhmmm the other sentences do not necessarily imply that the maid fell long time ago, but the first one does.

This is strange. Isn't Shannon mixing up the story of the maid that fell from the cliff with the story of the maid that fell from the stairs?
George, Shannon, Kanon... Wait a minute. From Gohda's notebook and Kumasawa's testimony in EP6, it seems like there's a history of the one-winged eagle servants hazing other servants by pranking them and making it look like the witch did it. Maybe this story is just something that was made up as part of that hazing, and never really happened at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
It's not necessarily true that Yasu was never aware of her injury. That scene could be simply explained because only at that moment Yasu learned how she received that injury and under which circumstances.
In fact I believe it's most probable that she knew and that's why she was given a single bedroom while every other servant got a double or even a triple.
If all of the "child from nineteen years ago" elements were subtracted out, how significantly would that impact the rest of Yasu's history? Is it possible that was grafted on by Bernkastel trying to make the pieces fit?
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:08   Link #1156
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well if you doubt Claire's story I guess there's a lot of possibilities open to you.

But personally I prefer to think it's true for the most part. Kinzo's perfectly timed death and magic scenes apart everything made perfect sense to me, plus Will didn't have any problem with that.

Quote:
Hmmm...A permanent scar doesn't get bigger as your body gets bigger too. And since the scar was inflited during infantile, it cannot be that big.
Are you sure? I thought it's exactly the opposite. As far as I know scars grow with you. So if Yasu got a scar that covered her whole chest as a baby it would still cover her whole chest at 19 years.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:09   Link #1157
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
どうして死なせてくれなかったんですか?! 私はあの時の大怪我で、……こんな体で生きさせられている!!  こんな体で、生きていたくなんかなかった!!
Why you didn't let me die?! At the time I received that big injury you decided to made me live with this body!! I would have never wanted to live with this body!
And isn't it strange that at this place the term 大怪我 appears again?!

Quote:
It's not necessarily true that Yasu was never aware of her injury. That scene could be simply explained because only at that moment Yasu learned how she received that injury and under which circumstances.
But why then would she allow herself to fall in love with Battler?! The scene makes it clear that knowledge of the injury made it clear to her that she was now in a body that is unable to love. Had she known about this scar before there would have never been a romantic involvement with Battler in the first place.
More than that, up to the point that we witnessed in Episode 7 as a coherent line, we never once hear about the servants refering to themselves as 'furniture'. It seems to be that this 'incident' is what created the concept of 家具 in the first place.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:14   Link #1158
cmos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
Yasu, if I remember correctly, says that after the fall the injury left her "unable to love". We're interpreting that as some sort of scar to her chest or (cough) genitals, that would stunt her growth, as mentioned in the game, and possibly obscure her gender (as shown by Leon's ambiguous gender).
Lion didn't experienced the fall though. Yet his gender is still ambiguous. So unless his appearance is a mere symbol for our Yasu's gender ambiguity, we can say that it's not related to the injury and probably inherited.
cmos is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:17   Link #1159
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
And isn't it strange that at this place the term 大怪我 appears again?!


But why then would she allow herself to fall in love with Battler?! The scene makes it clear that knowledge of the injury made it clear to her that she was now in a body that is unable to love. Had she known about this scar before there would have never been a romantic involvement with Battler in the first place.
More than that, up to the point that we witnessed in Episode 7 as a coherent line, we never once hear about the servants refering to themselves as 'furniture'. It seems to be that this 'incident' is what created the concept of 家具 in the first place.
Yes, I was noticing that too about 大怪我 reappearing. Interesting!

My thoughts were the same about this scene probably signifying the origin of the "Furniture... however there is one other instance in Yasu's story--when Maria is helping Beatrice make names, she does refer to Ronove as being suitable for her head furniture if I recall...? Or was it just head servant in that case? If so, then should we place the flashback scene before this scene with Maria, or after?
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline  
Old 2010-09-05, 12:17   Link #1160
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Are you sure? I thought it's exactly the opposite. As far as I know scars grow with you. So if Yasu got a scar that covered her whole chest as a baby it would still cover her whole chest at 19 years.
Definitely does not. Got my own childhood scars to prove it... most of them very, very faded. If it is explicitly scar tissue, it doesn't grow with the body.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.