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Old 2010-09-06, 20:48   Link #1221
Jan-Poo
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As I said Eva is name you can find in a lot of different countries. It isn't more spanish than it is italian, portuguese or slavic.

The same can be said for Maria. Both Eva and Maria are latinisations of biblical names that were spread in all europe.
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Old 2010-09-07, 01:23   Link #1222
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Does anyone has the Dine Rules said in red in EP7 ?
Because I am reading the original and...

"8. The problem of the crime must he solved by strictly naturalistic means."
But oh man red truth.
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Old 2010-09-07, 02:00   Link #1223
cmos
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Does anyone has the Dine Rules said in red in EP7 ?
Because I am reading the original and...

"8. The problem of the crime must he solved by strictly naturalistic means."
But oh man red truth.
There are only three: 11 (that was used in another story), 1 and 7. But that rule is basically the same as Knox's 2nd.
And you can't use red as a basis for your theory, see ep5. You need to have a human proofs. Red can just direct your thoughts and lay some restrictions.
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Old 2010-09-07, 10:33   Link #1224
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If we go by a loose definition of "natural" to include "those clues which are necessarily derived from processes comprehensible to the detective," we're fine with red truth. Meta-Battler exists in an environment which is not itself bound by strictly naturalistic laws, but what laws do exist have consistent rules (red statements are truth and non-true statements cannot be stated in red). The board characters never intuit using red to their advantage, so the pieces do not break Knox or Dine. The board mysteries are solvable without the red anyway, albeit not easily.
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Old 2010-09-08, 20:28   Link #1225
Digdri
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To end this discussion about the attribution of the name to different country to find a pattern: I guess its really pointless.

IMO its safe to say that R07 was aiming for a broad theme of not names typical of a specific country but considered typical of western origins.
For the most part he choose names which go back to ancient origins and just took a very specific variation of it which may still get attributed to multiple languages or may be in use (or have been in use) in the corresponding countries. Thats why IMO its rather pointless to try to find the very meaning behind this as those names are just so old that they may literally exist in every western language in some minor or major variation.

Just a few of the examples cite more often:

As was already discussed: Eva and Maria go back to at least biblical ages.
But while the alternative to Eva is Eve it actually comes from an Hebrew name.
For Maria we also have Mary, Miriam/Mirjam, Marie etc.

George is attribute to Ancient Greece and as many kings took this name its now wonder that even Wikipedia list at least 30 variation of this name constructed over the ages which you wouldn't even consider linked to this. (Juri? Jörg/Jürgen? Duran? Göran?)

For Rosa while it's wide spread in Spanish and Portuguese its also much older.
But I see where the suggestion that it may be German could come from. Not only is/was it a rather often used name in Germany but its also the German name for the color "pink". But still it goes back at least to Latin so it will most likely get used in all those languages that don't change up original Latin spelling for their "native" words.

For Krauss I have to agree with chounokoe that it is really unlikely as as a German given name. But there are German people with the surname "Krauss" which fits the theme of borrowing names from individual features of persons ('krauss' is German for 'curly')
On the other side Klaus is still a really wide spread and typical German name (but I think their is no 'Klauss' variation of it and its just a double "error")
But its origin is indeed refers to Nikolaus or even before Nicholas which is once again from Greek and so we once again have something like 30 variation on Wikipedia. Still 'Kraus' is also in use as Danish, Norwegian and Finnish names as I found out later.

Even Jessica which sounds perfectly fine as English name is attribute back to complete different biblical name and while Rudolf sounds very typically German its actually in use in at least 6 languages.

I guess I could go on like this for every single family member with (remotely realistic) western name.
German only seem like a good place to start looking for pattern because this language usually does change up the original Latin or Greek names at all in spelling and/or pronunciation when adapting them unlike e.g. English (with a few exceptions like adding umlauts or morphing i/j or c/k as I already stated before in the translation thread)

So in conclusion I consider grouping them by those national flavors as a dead end (if it's not the Eiserne Jungfrauen characters )

If you really want to overthink the names to this extend I guess looking for the actually MEANING behind all those original names could have much more subtle plot relevance then where they are used today. After all most examples above go back at least 2k year and this tale has significant link to biblical topics and ideology.
At least for Maria this idea was already confirmed in EP7 and Rosa => Maria's rose also is a long standing theory. Perhaps it doesn't end there.
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Old 2010-09-09, 11:44   Link #1226
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If we go by a loose definition of "natural" to include "those clues which are necessarily derived from processes comprehensible to the detective," we're fine with red truth. Meta-Battler exists in an environment which is not itself bound by strictly naturalistic laws, but what laws do exist have consistent rules (red statements are truth and non-true statements cannot be stated in red). The board characters never intuit using red to their advantage, so the pieces do not break Knox or Dine. The board mysteries are solvable without the red anyway, albeit not easily.
Most of the early red truths are things you'd probably infer from the writing normally anyway. I mean, you probably wouldn't suspect that there are random secret passages everywhere, for instance.

Later on, though, some red truths ("Kanon was the 9th victim" sticks out to me) which are vital but which you wouldn't normally pick up.
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Old 2010-09-09, 12:55   Link #1227
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You could, however, reach a solution for the 4th game which does not require knowing that red. And inasmuch as Meta-Battler is not the detective on the board, this is fine; Piece-Battler is not aware of this red, so if he is the detective of ep4 (I don't know that he is, but let's say he is), he's not coming to any conclusion with red text. The rule is not broken on the board or in the meta-world, and there is no information transfer between the two.

Again, it depends how loosely you'd read the rule. But I think it fits the spirit of the rule, since red text has a coherent ruleset and is introduced and explained to Meta-Battler long before it starts confirming things that are unconfirmed.
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Old 2010-09-10, 10:58   Link #1228
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A little bit off the current topic:

I am curious about how the readers view the "answer" provided in EP7. I am not talking about whehter you think it is lame or your other emotional responses to it, but rather I would want to know if you think Ryu07 really have exposed all the core truths in EP7. Do you think there is still a big reveal waiting in EP8.

Frankly, if we look at only the main part of EP7 (excluding tea party and ???), it seemed that Ryu07 had already told us whodunit (Yasu, aka Shannon), howdunit (for EP1-4, through persona death and bomb) and whydunit (frustration over love between Battler and George), as well as the backstory of Beatrice. If these are really the complete truth, then really what happened on 4th and 5th Oct, 1986 did not matter much, no matter it was Kyrie and Rudolf taking advantage of the accident or anything, if Yasu had setuped the murder plot and prepared the bomb already.

We had already used 60 pages to discuss the stuff in EP7, many people have voiced their suspicion on tea party and main part as well. So what do you think, is EP8 just a telling of how Yasu's plan gone wrong on that day, or there is actually a deeper core behind Yasu's story which led to the Rokkenjima incident?
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Old 2010-09-10, 11:12   Link #1229
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I don't think EP8 actually gave an answer on the howdunnit, it barely showed some hints.
There are a lot of mysteries, closed room cases and so on, that we needed to solve through the various games and no definitive answer has been set yet.

So a good portion of EP8 will certainly be used to give those answers. I hope it will also explain the mysteries of EP5 and EP6, and I hope there will be acceptable explanations.

The issues of shkanon and ghosterika should also be clarified since ryuukishi definitely teased us by providing hints of both.

Oh and Battler's truth about his birth should be clarified. Including maybe more insight on Asumu. We have only heard Kyrie's pov so far.

What kind of role Yasu had in the rokkenjima incident is also not fully clear. Why the letters? Why the messages? Why killing everyone?
We have theories, but the author needs to give us a confirmation and he has yet to do so.


And still since Bernkastel is obviously still in play and she's up to no good I expect a battle in the metaworld too. Maybe BATTLER and Will will team up? I hope so, I want to see the two characters interact.

The story arc of Ange from 1998 also needs a proper conclusion.

Anyway I think there will be a lot of confirmations of stuff that have been theorized so far, but I also think that Ryuukishi still has a few secret cards that no one or very few actually predicted.

There's a lot of stuff to do in this EP8....
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Old 2010-09-10, 13:29   Link #1230
Will Wright
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And still since Bernkastel is obviously still in play and she's up to no good I expect a battle in the metaworld too. Maybe BATTLER and Will will team up? I hope so, I want to see the two characters interact.
Me too. This is what I hope for the most in episode 8.


Quote:
Frankly, if we look at only the main part of EP7 (excluding tea party and ???), it seemed that Ryu07 had already told us whodunit (Yasu, aka Shannon), howdunit (for EP1-4, through persona death and bomb) and whydunit (frustration over love between Battler and George),
Not sure about that though.

The howdunnit was always painfully easy(at least in a matter of possibilities), but the whydunit and the whodunit...Eh...

It goes Whydunit>Whodunit>Howdunit in a matter of difficulty.

Besides, Dine makes me uneasy to accept Shannon as the culprit.

edit: Yes I know Dine might not count for the main mystery, but it still goes against my principles to break it.

Last edited by Will Wright; 2010-09-10 at 14:29.
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Old 2010-09-10, 18:29   Link #1231
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Me too. This is what I hope for the most in episode 8.
Epic Cape and Epic Trenchcoat buddy cop story.

One's a formerly incompetent investigator with a chip on his shoulder and a hot, blonde, imaginary waifu.

The other is a past-his-prime ace detective with a newly found heart of gold, out to avenge his lover of questionable gender.

The twist is that they both fell for, and lost, the same person. Do they know? How will it affect their teamwork when it comes to light?

Two loose cannon vigilantes out to get revenge on the blue-haired loli that set them both up with ridiculous feats of deductive reasoning and imaginary sword swinging.

Epic Cape and Epic Trenchcoat, coming to Comikets near you December 2010.



Quote:
Not sure about that though.

The howdunnit was always painfully easy(at least in a matter of possibilities), but the whydunit and the whodunit...Eh...

It goes Whydunit>Whodunit>Howdunit in a matter of difficulty.

Besides, Dine makes me uneasy to accept Shannon as the culprit.

edit: Yes I know Dine might not count for the main mystery, but it still goes against my principles to break it.
Shkannon is just the howdunnit, the why and who are the more difficult parts remaining to be sure, although I remain confident about the answer to those two myself.
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Old 2010-09-10, 19:45   Link #1232
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Shkannon is just the howdunnit, the why and who are the more difficult parts remaining to be sure, although I remain confident about the answer to those two myself.
Don't you mean the whodunnit? Because "Shkannon" is not, and never has been, the "how." Except maybe in Double Shkanon.
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Old 2010-09-10, 19:58   Link #1233
TehChron
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Don't you mean the whodunnit? Because "Shkannon" is not, and never has been, the "how." Except maybe in Double Shkanon.
Which I am a believer of.
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Old 2010-09-10, 20:03   Link #1234
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Don't you mean the whodunnit? Because "Shkannon" is not, and never has been, the "how." Except maybe in Double Shkanon.
There is one case that seems to hint that shkanon is the how:

第3のゲーム、第一の晩。連鎖密室が繋ぎし、6人の骸。
Clair: 3rd Game, first twilight. The six bodies in the chained closed rooms.

幻は幻に。……輪になる密室、終わりと始まりが、重なる。
Will: Illusion to illusion. ........... the closed rooms are in a circle whose beginning and end overlap.


Shannon was the first who was discovered, Kanon was the last.
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Old 2010-09-10, 20:49   Link #1235
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That would be possible even without Shkanon though. But that's not really the point I'm making here. If you're in favor of this you have the who, why, and how. It doesn't really make sense even given what we're supposedly told:
  • WHO: Shannon/Yasu/Lion/Whoever.
  • WHY: lol im sad / praying for miracle / Battler u suck / I always hated that carpet and I do have 900t of explosives...
  • HOW: I have a bomb that's all but certain to kill everyone. Therefore, I will challenge them to solve the epitaph, then shoot them if they don't. Then, for some reason, I will impersonate another person who doesn't really exist and whose apparent existence helps me in no way whatsoever when I could just shoot everyone in their sleep or drug them and then shoot them or just allow them to blow up. Also I'll keep killing one of me off even though I still have to pretend to be alive as the other one, complicating matters if anyone ever notices my "corpse" missing.
Even if I accept the who/why making sense, "I have access to the bomb" and "I'm going to shoot everyone in da face" seems like more than sufficient how. The impersonation is simply never actually necessary. Even if you ask me to accept everything about Yasu, this doesn't actually help her.
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Old 2010-09-10, 20:59   Link #1236
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I have exactly the same opinion on double shkanon, I'm sure you know that.
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Old 2010-09-10, 21:33   Link #1237
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The problem with Double Shkanon falls not in the "how" but the "why." It's basically exactly reversed; it works, but there's no clear reason for two people to be doing it.

When you multiply entities you make the howdunnit easier but the whydunnit harder (as you must justify more than one motive), and the reverse when you reduce entities (as one person has a harder time acting than more than one person does).
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Old 2010-09-11, 02:25   Link #1238
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The problem with Double Shkanon falls not in the "how" but the "why." It's basically exactly reversed; it works, but there's no clear reason for two people to be doing it.

When you multiply entities you make the howdunnit easier but the whydunnit harder (as you must justify more than one motive), and the reverse when you reduce entities (as one person has a harder time acting than more than one person does).
I claimed that its done because Kanon would be incompetent and Shannon was simply covering for him. At least, to establish that behavior prior to the murders.
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Old 2010-09-11, 04:10   Link #1239
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Using Shkanon (or Double Shkanon) to solve EP1-4, howdunit:

EP1:
Shanon used Kanon's corpse to pose as Shannon and she imposed as Kanon.
She murdered Eva and Hideyoshi, with Genji helping him to cover up the closed room.
She faked her death in the boiler room. Nanjo helped her to cover up.
She murdered Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo while telling Maria to sing song.
SHe shot Natsuhi in the duel, dressing like the Portrait Beatrice.

Question: why did this reconcile with Battler overhearing Kanon's speech inside the kitchen?

EP2:
She dressed up as Beatrice to meet Rosa and Maria.
She called the adults to meet at the chapel and treat them a meal since the dinner was interrupted.
AFter the group quarreled with each other, she murdered the six, after letting Rosa left.
Rosa killed Jessica, or Shanon killed Jessica. Kanon persona was discarded.
She killed Nanjo and Kumasawa in the disguise of Kanon (but not in Kanon persona), while Genji coerced Gohda to cover up.
She kiled George, Gohda and suicided.
Finally the explosive exploded, and everyone died.

EP3:
She played dead in the parlor, placing Kanon's real body in the chapel.
After the adults left, she followed them to murder every other servants.
Shanon persona was discarded and it was Beatrice persona afterwards.
Eva accidentally murdered Rosa and straggled Maria.
Kyrie's group went to mansion and had a fight among themselves. Hideyoshi shot Rudolf, Kyrie shot Hideyoshi but Hideyoshi retaliate in his last breath and hurt Kyrie. Kyrie met Beatrice and Beatrice helped Kyrie to fake her death. Kyrie said Eva has solved the epitaph, Beatrice told Kyrie the explosives and the passcode for the bank card inside the underground VIP card
Eva murdered Krauss and Natsuhi, dragging their bodies to the garden. Beatrice stabbed the stakes on them.
George came to mansion and found Shannon (in George's eye, Beatrice is SHannon), thinking she was resurrected. Kyrie killed George and perished.
Latter the group came, Beatrice imposed as Kanon for the blind Jessica, killed Nanjo and both died in the explosion.
Eva killed Battler and survived.

EP4:
Because of Kyrie's word, Krauss would not hide Kinzo's death. Latter Shannon came and offered to take the responsibility (then Krauss would say the concealment of Kinzo's death was only an order from the current head of family) if he accepted her to be the head of family and followed her planned test. Krauss agreed.
Shannon announced this to everyone in the meeting and they were obliged to follow the plan because she also offered the gold in exchange. She recruited Kyrie, hoping her to convince Battler in believing who he was going to see was Beatrice.
Soon, she killed the 6 adults and murdered the children who failed the test.
She abandoned Kanon's persona after she killed Jessica.
She told Kyrie of the explosive so Kyrie said the magic stuff to Battler.
She shot herself and the gun slipped into the well. She offered the poison to Maria.
Battler died in explosion.


Whodunit, howdunit for EP1-4, using information from EP7 (like Tea party, Will's response to Kureru, etc)

For whydunit, well, she was kind of over-imaginative and believed deeply in magic so after Battler failed to remembered his promise she thought killing the people according to epitaph would really create a Golden Land where everyone would be happy (GeorgeXShannon, BeatriceXBattler, KanonXJessica).


Does anyone buy this kind of "Answer"? I dont'. I was expecting a subversion of all the above theories in EP8
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Old 2010-09-11, 05:52   Link #1240
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Using Shkanon (or Double Shkanon) to solve EP1-4, howdunit:



EP2:
She dressed up as Beatrice to meet Rosa and Maria.
She called the adults to meet at the chapel and treat them a meal since the dinner was interrupted.
AFter the group quarreled with each other, she murdered the six, after letting Rosa left.
Rosa killed Jessica, or Shanon killed Jessica. Kanon persona was discarded.
She killed Nanjo and Kumasawa in the disguise of Kanon (but not in Kanon persona), while Genji coerced Gohda to cover up.
She kiled George, Gohda and suicided.
Finally the explosive exploded, and everyone died.



Ok, let's roll this possibility one more time....

I thought that Will sayed something like this about ep 2 about natsuhi's room ..." a coffin is not a closed room". It's just that I don't get why would Shannon kill herself at that time. Furthermore Will todl that Kumasawa and Nanjo were not dead (wich would explain goda's silence...).
So why would she let em alive? I hope she actually did chalenge battler before midnight just like it is in ep 2.
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