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Old 2010-09-13, 15:07   Link #1301
Jan-Poo
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Yeah the problem is:

The door and the windows were locked from the inside

Which is why I don't understand. Even supposing they died in a different place, I still don't understand how does this affect our closed room.
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:21   Link #1302
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah the problem is:

The door and the windows were locked from the inside

Which is why I don't understand. Even supposing they died in a different place, I still don't understand how does this affect our closed room.
Considering my argument before... Maybe that line is just saying that the door's hand-operable lock is on the inside, like the windows? "It's locked, and you can't unlock it from outside without a key"? That would explain why Beato kept going on about the keys afterward.
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:27   Link #1303
Renall
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The question is, does it refer to a state (the door is locked from inside, regardless of how it arrived at that point) or to a process (the door was locked, and the locking was from the inside)?
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:36   Link #1304
LyricalAura
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Well, there was this about EP3:
George did not go down the guesthouse staircase. All doors and windows leading to the outside were locked from the inside. Furthermore, it is impossible to lock any of these from the outside.

If it was about process and not state, I think the second statement there wouldn't have been necessary, at least to counter Battler's argument at the time.
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:46   Link #1305
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Just a thought. But could the place Kumasawa and Nanjo are lying outside be near Natsuhi's window? In other words could they have been killed in Natsuhi's room originally and thrown out into courtyard through the second floor window? Then someone inside proceeded to lock it?
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:47   Link #1306
Jan-Poo
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So in the end someone must have been inside when the room was locked.

And therefore whether there are corpses outside or not it's really not much relevant.

Quote:
Then someone inside proceeded to lock it?
Yeah and who? No one is hiding. You'd have to imagine someone faked his death. But then why Will didn't say "illusion to illusion"?


Quote:
"It's locked, and you can't unlock it from outside without a key"?
How does that solve our problem?
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:48   Link #1307
Renall
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It's a unique problem of doors, generally. A window is almost always lockable only from inside (else it would be of little use). A door, however, is very explicitly designed to be locked from either direction. A truly classic closed room necessitates some other reason why the door could not have been closed from outside (eyewitnesses, the key is inside the room, etc.). Technically speaking, a merely perceived locking from inside is just a state, not a process... but I have no idea if the author intended that.
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:51   Link #1308
cmos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Jessica, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo. Pick one you like.
Oh, well. Though it seems useless, I'll play a little. I like Genji, since it's good for the culprit to be alive.

Quote:
she dislikes twisted semantics
I'm glad you understand this, that means that Jessica shouldn't be alive.

Quote:
climactic logic battle
You mean that battle when she lost any will to fight and was just trying to be killed quickly? She merely stated the problems and listened to Battler's ridiculous explanations, sometimes countering some of them to give him more hints.

Quote:
When Beato said before that the door and windows were locked from the inside, it wasn't completely clear if she was confirming that the door was last locked from the inside or not (as opposed to saying that windows were locked from the inside and the door was just locked).
It's pretty clear, in my opinion, if you don't want to consider petty twisted semantics. Japanese line: 扉も窓も内側から施錠されていた。
Quote:
If that is what she meant, then the whole premise of Battler's theory should have been denied from the outset. But instead of repeating that and continuing the fight elsewhere, Beato chose to follow that line of reasoning.
Because you can choose how to counter some blue. You can use already stated red or declare a new one. Beato did the latter several times just to give him some extra hints.


Now let's define that "fake master key" you want to use so much. It's some object, visually indistinguishable from the real master key, but without the properties of one, correct?
Because if it can be used as a master key it should be counted as such. And if it's visually distinguishable, Battler would have noticed this. "Just like usual" closed room definition implies that the door can't be opened with anything except the master keys and the individual key.
Now, you're saying that the culprit returned the 5th master key to Rosa. Why would he need to do this, except to circumvent some red text stated in metaworld? There is absolutely no reason for the culprit to return the real master key, because all five objects, resembling known master keys, were already in Rosa's possession and she won't give anyone a permission to check them anyway.
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Old 2010-09-13, 15:53   Link #1309
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's a unique problem of doors, generally. A window is almost always lockable only from inside (else it would be of little use). A door, however, is very explicitly designed to be locked from either direction. A truly classic closed room necessitates some other reason why the door could not have been closed from outside (eyewitnesses, the key is inside the room, etc.). Technically speaking, a merely perceived locking from inside is just a state, not a process... but I have no idea if the author intended that.
This state of "locked from inside" would only make sense with a chainlock, but in case of a normal lock there is absolutely no objective mean to differentiate a locking from inside from a locking from outside except for the action itself that caused that lock.

So "locked from inside" can only mean that it was locked from inside.
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Old 2010-09-13, 16:55   Link #1310
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is interesting. Considering this, it is possible that Will's answer doesn't have a meaning by itself.
What Will tried to do was to provide a proof that he solved the mysteries without telling the truth explicitly. The reason is that telling the truth hurts Beatrice (as we have seen in EP4 and EP5), so Will used the most merciful method (he didn't even use blue).

That however was only possible through a certain "code" that he and Beatrice would understand. Will as an inquisitor must certainly know the mystery genre and its canons, Beatrice is also an expert, so probably Will took for granted that Beatrice read Ellery Queen.

If my reasoning so far is correct, then what Will wanted to tell to Beatrice is: "You used the same trick Ellery Queen used in that book".

Now I only need to understand how exactly that can work in umineko.
The victims or one of the victims didn't die inside that room?

I don't get it...
Will can you tell us more about that closed room? Maybe the trick is not related to the bodies... how exactly was the closed room created?
I'm on it. I haven't read that novel in about a year though, so give me some time to re-read the solution. I remember that there were two murders though. One involved temperature/rigor mortis tricks, while the other involved string and a stake, the string being the murder weapon and what sealed the coffin.
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Old 2010-09-13, 17:02   Link #1311
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This state of "locked from inside" would only make sense with a chainlock, but in case of a normal lock there is absolutely no objective mean to differentiate a locking from inside from a locking from outside except for the action itself that caused that lock.
Is it possible there's a timing trick here? For instance, the victims had locked the room from the inside to create a closed room. However, the culprit later unlocked it from the outside to kill them and then relocked it the same way.
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Old 2010-09-13, 18:00   Link #1312
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
I'm glad you understand this, that means that Jessica shouldn't be alive.
Since it's been shown that people who are dead don't "exist" anymore, then it could be argued that the fact that Beato including Jessica in the set of people who "existed" in her room confirmed that she was alive. I don't necessarily agree with this, but the logic is workable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos
You mean that battle when she lost any will to fight and was just trying to be killed quickly? She merely stated the problems and listened to Battler's ridiculous explanations, sometimes countering some of them to give him more hints.
They're not hints if they lead him down a garden path into a useless theory space. Why would she behave like that only for this one puzzle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos
It's pretty clear, in my opinion, if you don't want to consider petty twisted semantics. Japanese line: 扉も窓も内側から施錠されていた。
It was a question of whether there was a translation subtlety that had been missed, not twisted semantics. On the other hand... Instead of "were locked from the inside", couldn't that line also be translated as "had been locked from the inside"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos
Now let's define that "fake master key" you want to use so much. It's some object, visually indistinguishable from the real master key, but without the properties of one, correct?
Because if it can be used as a master key it should be counted as such. And if it's visually distinguishable, Battler would have noticed this. "Just like usual" closed room definition implies that the door can't be opened with anything except the master keys and the individual key.
Now, you're saying that the culprit returned the 5th master key to Rosa. Why would he need to do this, except to circumvent some red text stated in metaworld? There is absolutely no reason for the culprit to return the real master key, because all five objects, resembling known master keys, were already in Rosa's possession and she won't give anyone a permission to check them anyway.
Remember that what we call master keys are actually rings with a bunch of keys on them. Even if you saw two large key rings with different keys on them, could you notice the difference between them if you only saw them briefly, from a distance, and several hours apart from each other?

Also, there is certainly a reason why the culprit would want to return the real master key. Take the premise that Piece Battler is the detective of this game, and the target of the fake murder illusions in it. Assuming Rosa is involved in this plan, then she'd want to help preserve the illusions, which means that she has to a) stay in character and b) not do anything that would cause Battler to suspect a human culprit.

Battler is a mystery expert. He'd be unlikely to pay close attention to the keys early on, but after the discovery of Natsuhi's (fake) locked room he could certainly be expected to think of a fake master key and want to inspect Rosa's collection up close. Due to Rosa's established character of accusing the servants whenever possible, she could hardly go against this suggestion, and wouldn't want to anyway because it would damage the locked room illusion. However, if the real master key can be used for whatever purpose and then delivered to Rosa before Natsuhi's closed room is discovered, then Battler won't notice anything even if he inspects all of the master keys side by side. This prevents him from tracing the fake key back to the culprit.
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Old 2010-09-13, 18:11   Link #1313
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Is it possible there's a timing trick here? For instance, the victims had locked the room from the inside to create a closed room. However, the culprit later unlocked it from the outside to kill them and then relocked it the same way.
It's possible, but in that case Beatrice's red was used to get Battler farther from the truth rather than getting him on the right track.

I might be wrong here, but I want to trust that Beatrice created tricks only during the exposition of the riddles, and she used reds to make Battler keep thinking about the real solution rather than let him settle on a false theory.
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Old 2010-09-13, 19:34   Link #1314
Will Wright
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The locked room that has the reference Will uses in Umineko has this following solution:

Spoiler:


If Ryuukishi followed the murder to the letter, then the only possible culprit would be George, with Shannon as an accomplice.

Solving this murder that way would help Battler as it would be impossible to hide from the truth(George/Shannon being the killers) without insane logic.

But I don't think he did. I just think he used the idea of a coffin, not the entire murder.

Although he might have copied the "soul" of the trick, if you know what I mean.
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Old 2010-09-13, 19:48   Link #1315
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Isn't that... a sortof remote murder?

I suppose there's the question of when a murder is commited. I mean, if someone is stabbed, the culprit runs off, and they die an hour later, the murder occured at the time of the attack. Same goes if the culprit stabs the victim and they die after two weeks.

Which allows for some interesting moves, I guess. You can give someone a slow acting poison, have them fake their deaths somewhere else, then when they die then, you can still claim to have "been in the same room while they were murdered". And that they were "Dead at the time of discovery", that "The death was a homicide", that "noone is hiding in the room" and so on. While this works for a few things, it seems kindof... cheap, heh.
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Old 2010-09-13, 19:59   Link #1316
Will Wright
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It works much better for a traditional mystery novel than for a game like Umineko, which is why I don't think Ryuukishi followed the trick to the letter.

edit: And there is the mortem trick in the same novel, that also created a "coffin" but...yeah.
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Old 2010-09-13, 21:29   Link #1317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
She was also mentioned in Episode 1 briefly near the beginning.

Rosa's given year is by far the most suspicious, simply because it doesn't add up with the rest of the timeline.
Considering some of the things he did in Higurashi, that makes me believe Rosa's year even more.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well he hasn't even given us the courtesy of knowing Grandma's name yet.

I wonder if Kinzo's wife might have been one of the grandparents they say died while Battler was away. I think it might make some sense for Rudolf to beg Battler to come back with the pretext of going to grandma's funeral as an Ushiromiya.
I'm pretty sure it meant both of the grandparents Battler was staying with (Asumu's parents).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Isn't that... a sortof remote murder?

I suppose there's the question of when a murder is commited. I mean, if someone is stabbed, the culprit runs off, and they die an hour later, the murder occured at the time of the attack. Same goes if the culprit stabs the victim and they die after two weeks.

Which allows for some interesting moves, I guess. You can give someone a slow acting poison, have them fake their deaths somewhere else, then when they die then, you can still claim to have "been in the same room while they were murdered". And that they were "Dead at the time of discovery", that "The death was a homicide", that "noone is hiding in the room" and so on. While this works for a few things, it seems kindof... cheap, heh.
I suggested that as far as Nanjo's death in Episode 3. It can be ruled out for some of the crimes (First Twilight Episode 3, which were instant deaths).
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Old 2010-09-14, 04:07   Link #1318
cmos
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
They're not hints if they lead him down a garden path into a useless theory space. Why would she behave like that only for this one puzzle?
She doesn't behave like that for only this one puzzle, she always behaves like that. Her way of hinting (with red) is to deny as much possibilities as possible, see Evatrice in ep3, that should be one of the easiest games, according to Ryu and Battler. She tries to cut down his "clever" theories and force him to look at the obvious truth right before his eyes, that he can't see, because at first he doesn't want to suspect someone close to him and then he doesn't want to believe and understand what the witch is trying to say him. Just like some other people.
Even if you think a riddle you propose is easy...it might be difficult for the person trying to solve it.

Quote:
Remember that what we call master keys are actually rings with a bunch of keys on them.
Nowhere in this episode it's mentioned that personal master keys of the servants are on a key ring. It's probably a writer's (GM's) design for the game for an easier recognition. It would be hard to place a whole key ring in Jessica's pocket with her clothes and even harder to deliver 2 master keys in the letter in the servants' room. Therefore, the fake key at least should resemble the real thing close enough to not stand out from the rest, when gathered together, like in servants' room scene.

Quote:
Assuming Rosa is involved in this plan, then she'd want to help preserve the illusions, which means that she has to a) stay in character and b) not do anything that would cause Battler to suspect a human culprit.
Battler is a mystery expert. He'd be unlikely to pay close attention to the keys early on, but after the discovery of Natsuhi's (fake) locked room he could certainly be expected to think of a fake master key and want to inspect Rosa's collection up close. Due to Rosa's established character of accusing the servants whenever possible, she could hardly go against this suggestion, and wouldn't want to anyway because it would damage the locked room illusion.
He wouldn't do such a thing, because at that time he didn't want to suspect anyone close to him. He surrendered to the witch in the end, remember? In fact, Rosa herself proposed the theory that additional master keys exist and the servants are hiding them. Try to think about it from the gameboard perspective without knowing any red. Piece-Battler accepted that only 5 master keys exist only because he wanted to trust the servants. If he would have decided to doubt them, it was much easier to just suspect that an additional real master key exist and do not bother with some elaborate fakes and the need to return something to Rosa. Furthermore, you can't suspect Rosa without suspecting the servants, because she had a perfect alibi the whole time after the second twilight. Therefore, there's no point for him to inspect the keys in her possession if he already suspects someone (and that automatically involves the servants) - he can just assume that an extra master key exists. There's no point to go for a more complex theory if an easier one works just as well, with the same premises and conclusions. Therefore, there's no point for the culprit to return the real master key to Rosa.
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Old 2010-09-14, 05:12   Link #1319
Judoh
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
She doesn't behave like that for only this one puzzle, she always behaves like that. Her way of hinting (with red) is to deny as much possibilities as possible, see Evatrice in ep3, that should be one of the easiest games, according to Ryu and Battler.
Uh... no. If you read the Tea parties with Lambda in them, and how she handles the GM position in episode 5 you'll know that it's Lambda's style to deny possibilities like that not Beato's. Beato does that to an extent, but not the way LD does. Beato constantly cuts corners and will often deliberately leave possibilities open for Battler, refusing to repeat something, even when leaving open those possibilities aren't favorable to him and will deliberately make moves that are disadvantageous to herself depending on the situation. Lambdadelta gets extremely annoyed at that unpredictable part of Beato's style, and she makes this very clear in the episode 4 tea party, through her conversation with Bern, and when she makes the moves Beato could have made, but didn't.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-14 at 05:32.
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Old 2010-09-14, 07:51   Link #1320
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Nowhere in this episode it's mentioned that personal master keys of the servants are on a key ring.
You mean in this EP7? It was definitely stated that the so called "master key" is actually a bundle of keys and master keys, and that bundle is a key ring, pretty rigid too.
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