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Old 2010-09-14, 07:58   Link #1321
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's possible, but in that case Beatrice's red was used to get Battler farther from the truth rather than getting him on the right track.

I might be wrong here, but I want to trust that Beatrice created tricks only during the exposition of the riddles, and she used reds to make Battler keep thinking about the real solution rather than let him settle on a false theory.
She's used red for misdirection like that before though, particularly for the "no more than 18 people" bit and Nanjo's death in EP3, so I don't think it's completely safe to write off that kind of tactic here. Recognizing the trick would actually give you more information too, since you'd learn something about what George's group was up to before they got killed.

At any rate, I just did a quick scan through episodes 8-10 of the anime to see if I could spot any visual clues about master key shenanigans. Unlike the VN, the master keys are drawn as single keys, and they aren't obviously different in structure beyond what I'd attribute to animation issues. Battler saw Kanon's key when Nanjo got it out of Jessica's pocket, and he saw Genji's, Shannon's, and Gohda's lined up next to each other later when Rosa confiscated them. I'm not sure if he got a good look at the ones Rosa found in the servants' room, so their appearance there might have been Rosa's lie, but there's no good way to tell.

Looking at these scenes again made me wonder what would have happened if Battler hadn't managed to exonerate Kanon. Would someone have pointed the master key out, or was it left in Jessica's pocket by accident and Battler derailed some other plan by noticing it?
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Old 2010-09-14, 08:24   Link #1322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
She's used red for misdirection like that before though, particularly for the "no more than 18 people" bit and Nanjo's death in EP3, so I don't think it's completely safe to write off that kind of tactic here.
I've just finished to explain on the EP6 that the "no more than X people" isn't misdirecting at all.

It's like when you need to guess a number. What is better? To be in a state where you can think that X could be anything from 0 to infinite or to know it must be from 0 to 18?
I think that just to know X<=18 is a tremendously important hint, definitely valuable and not misdirecting at all.

As for Nanjo, I do not believe at all that the time trick is the correct answer.
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Old 2010-09-14, 08:29   Link #1323
cmos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Uh... no. If you read the Tea parties with Lambda in them, and how she handles the GM position in episode 5 you'll know that it's Lambda's style to deny possibilities like that not Beato's. Beato does that to an extent, but not the way LD does.
I've read the Tea Parties with Lambda in them, especially ep3 Tea Party where Lambda was extremely angry with Beato not trying to win. And by a very strange coincidence this episode was the one in which Beato gave out the most reds through Evatrice.
And she handles her GMing pretty nicely:
"You don't intend to proclaim any of their deaths in red now, do you?"
"Of course I won't. Unlike that dolt Beato, I don't give red out for free!"


"No wa~y♪ I'm not falling for that provocation! The red truth is only useful if you use it with flash, right? I'll take a single truth out of a large pile of blue and smash it with the red! Then, the rest of the blue truths will be swallowed up by darkness before you can find out whether they were right or wrong!"
"That darkness is the world of witches! You won't be given any truth at all! Ehheheheheheheheheheheheheh!!"


"......Repeat iiiiiit...? Even though I'm nice enough to give you all this red for free? Aren't you being a bit greedy? I'm not an idiot like Beato, so I won't go around saying everything my opponent tells me to repeat..."

Proclaiming something in red is extremely disadvantageous for the witch side, so Lambda can't possibly try to win like that. It's Bern who constructed all those reds in the end.

I'm not saying that Beato does that for every possibility. In this case it won't be a game. She wants Battler to reach the truth by himself and just merely directing his thoughts, turning him away from the wrong ones by denying them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You mean in this EP7? It was definitely stated that the so called "master key" is actually a bundle of keys and master keys, and that bundle is a key ring, pretty rigid too.
We are talking about ep2 and Natsuhi's locked room in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
She's used red for misdirection like that before though, particularly for the "no more than 18 people" bit
It's not a misdirection in this case, though. Before that point Battler always tried to blame some unknown 19th person X. She tries to finally make him think about what's presented to him and stop to invent useless tricks. Without directly revealing the answer, of course. Or should she have said "there are 16 people, try to guess who's dead and who's playing two roles"?
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Old 2010-09-14, 08:30   Link #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I've just finished to explain on the EP6 that the "no more than X people" isn't misdirecting at all.

It's like when you need to guess a number. What is better? To be in a state where you can think that X could be anything from 0 to infinite or to know it must be from 0 to 18?
I think that just to know X<=18 is a tremendously important hint, definitely valuable and not misdirecting at all.

As for Nanjo, I do not believe at all that the time trick is the correct answer.
In that scene, Battler had actually demanded repetition of both "there are more than 18 people" and "there are exactly 18 people." Beato stalled and set up that story about her death in the past so he wouldn't notice that "there are no more than 18 people" didn't actually match what he'd asked about.

For the other puzzle, do you believe that Beatrice!Yasu murdered Nanjo, or did you come up with another idea?
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Old 2010-09-14, 08:54   Link #1325
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Giving partial informations and giving misdirections is not the same thing.
Giving only vague hints is perfectly logical from the situation of someone that wants you to solve a riddle. You don't want to give a hint that would make solving the riddle a trivial matter. What does it mean that beatrice didn't give to Battler what he asked for? Why would Beatrice want to present the answer on a silver platter? What would have happened if Beatrice told Battler that "there are 17 people"?
Battler would have had no choice but to conclude that someone among the 18 wasn't there, but he had to reach that conclusion alone and not because of Beatrice's flat out declarations.

At that time Battler didn't suspect at all that there were less people, he suspected there were more. That red served the intended purpose without revealing anything more than what was necessary. Even so... personally I think that the mere fact that she refused to state that there were 18 people, was a hint that there were less.

Quote:
or the other puzzle, do you believe that Beatrice!Yasu murdered Nanjo, or did you come up with another idea?
In the first place I never believed the time trick was real because I found extremely odd that Battler would provide only wrong solutions in Ep4 except one.
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Old 2010-09-14, 09:34   Link #1326
Will Wright
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Also for the record, my solution to the coffin room is the following:

-There are only two possible solutions to the closed room.

Let's look at the first possibility:
Natsuhi locked the room and then sent the key off somewhere.

This is impossible. That Natsuhi would send the keys away from the room, and that Beatrice was relying on that small possibility for her closed room to work...It's no use. It's impossible.

Therefore...Prepare for the Golden Age strike. I'm going old school in this locked room.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Now, we have eliminated the possibility of Natsuhi locking her room using a key. What is it that remains? Of course, that she got hurt, the criminal ran away, and she locked her room. Her coffin was indeed a closed room. After all, from the moment it was made, death was unavoidable.

But how did she lock that room? It can only be locked with keys! Did Rosa or George lock it? No. They have alibis.
Then how?
# No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key
# Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside
#
# it is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key


However...That red is very careful.

It says that the doors can only be unlocked with a key. This is where we fell into the witch's illusion. We assumed that it meant "the room can only be locked with a key."

That is wrong. The truth is that a room that can only be unlocked by a key can still be locked by something else. It's not uncommon for doors to have a simple lock system from the inside.

I propose that Natsuhi was dying once she locked herself in the room, in order to protect herself from the murderer. She made her own coffin. A coffin is a closed room. But it doesn't matter, because the one inside it is going to die without any interference either way.

Last edited by Will Wright; 2010-09-14 at 09:44.
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Old 2010-09-14, 09:52   Link #1327
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A hiding bleedout death scenario, INTERESTING. As a side note I never believed that the rooms can only be locked with a key, it's really IMPRACTICAL.
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Old 2010-09-14, 09:59   Link #1328
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Will I don't understand what kind of reasoning is that. Actually I'm not even sure what are you talking about.
We are supposed to talk about the second game's 4th, 5th and 6th twilight right?
Why are you talking about Natsuhi?

I also do not understand your statement about "the room can only be locked with a key". The red specifies "from the outside", and even the magic scene itself showed that the door of Natsuhi's room definitely has an internal manual lock.
There isn't even a trick here, it was an apparent fact.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:00   Link #1329
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Too bad there was no Natsuhi in this case, because she was sitting in the chapel with her stomach cut open.
You don't have to be a Golden Age expert to propose that the door was locked by a manual lock. In fact, Gohda did so many times in the fantasy scene, when they were killed. The problem here is the stakes and the wounds on the corpses. Shannon had a head wound with a stake lying nearby. Gohda had a stake in his back, so he couldn't have stabbed himself and George had a stake in his stomach. It would be hard for the culprit to take down three people, stake them, make a total disorder in the room and leave, while the victim - George closes the door behind him.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:03   Link #1330
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Will I don't understand what kind of reasoning is that. Actually I'm not even sure what are you talking about.
We are supposed to talk about the second game's 4th, 5th and 6th twilight right?
Why are you talking about Natsuhi?
I got caught up and began to refer to another locked room. But ignoring the names, it's the same solution. More specifically "natsuhi's room" just became Natsuhi for some reason.

Quote:
I also do not understand your statement about "the room can only be locked with a key". The red specifies "from the outside", and even the magic scene itself showed that the door of Natsuhi's room definitely has an internal manual lock.
There isn't even a trick here, it was an apparent fact.
The 'trick' is that it makes us think that the keys are the key for solving the crime by stating "MASTER KEY MASTER KEY MASTER KEY" when they aren't needed to solve anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Too bad there was no Natsuhi in this case, because she was sitting in the chapel with her stomach cut open.
You don't have to be a Golden Age expert to propose that the door was locked by a manual lock. In fact, Gohda did so many times in the fantasy scene, when they were killed. The problem here is the stakes and the wounds on the corpses. Shannon had a head wound with a stake lying nearby. Gohda had a stake in his back, so he couldn't have stabbed himself and George had a stake in his stomach. It would be hard for the culprit to take down three people, stake them, leave the room in total disorder and leave while the victim - George closes the door behind him.
The Golden Age ABUSED this trick so much which is why I referenced it. I can think of 10 novels out of the top of my head that used this trick, and I'm not even exaggerating.

As for the overpower 3 people, it's just a matter of where they were killed and when their bodies were moved.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:10   Link #1331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Gohda had a stake in his back, so he couldn't have stabbed himself and George had a stake in his stomach.
No, Gohda's chest was gouged, not his back. The game specifically mentions that Gohda was face-down, but Battler had to inspect it closely to see the cause of death.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:15   Link #1332
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
No, Gohda's chest was gouged, not his back. The game specifically mentions that Gohda was face-down, but Battler had to inspect it closely to see the cause of death.
He had noticed it right off the bat:
Quote:
Drawers were flung open, pulled out, with their contents thrown about, devastated so that it looked nothing like the room of the methodical Natsuhi oba-san.
But the thing that caught the eye before that, .........was Gohda-san's corpse lying facedown right in front of the door...
Right in the center of his chest, almost as though it had been stuck there to finish off a vampire, one of those demon stakes from before had been rammed in.

......Exactly how far could it have reached after being stuck that deeply into his chest?
...Just imagining it would cause anyone's chest to hurt.
That's why I assume that it was in his back.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:18   Link #1333
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I got caught up and began to refer to another locked room. But ignoring the names, it's the same solution. More specifically "natsuhi's room" just became Natsuhi for some reason.



The 'trick' is that it makes us think that the keys are the key for solving the crime by stating "MASTER KEY MASTER KEY MASTER KEY" when they aren't needed to solve anything.



The Golden Age ABUSED this trick so much which is why I referenced it. I can think of 10 novels out of the top of my head that used this trick, and I'm not even exaggerating.

As for the overpower 3 people, it's just a matter of where they were killed and when their bodies were moved.

Okay Will, but so far I failed to understand how you solved the closed room of Episode2.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:18   Link #1334
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Right in the center of his chest, almost as though it had been stuck there to finish off a vampire, one of those demon stakes from before had been rammed in.
The bold statement is enough, and it would be really weird for this twilight alone to be incorrect in term of modus operandi.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:19   Link #1335
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Okay Will, but so far I failed to understand how you solved the closed room of Episode2.
'Solved' would imply I know beyond reasonable doubt that it is the answer. I just think that the trick is the classic bleed and lock.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:22   Link #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
He had noticed it right off the bat:

[...]

That's why I assume that it was in his back.
Strange. Maybe it was an author typo, and the anime got it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Giving partial informations and giving misdirections is not the same thing.
Giving only vague hints is perfectly logical from the situation of someone that wants you to solve a riddle. You don't want to give a hint that would make solving the riddle a trivial matter. What does it mean that beatrice didn't give to Battler what he asked for? Why would Beatrice want to present the answer on a silver platter? What would have happened if Beatrice told Battler that "there are 17 people"?
Battler would have had no choice but to conclude that someone among the 18 wasn't there, but he had to reach that conclusion alone and not because of Beatrice's flat out declarations.

At that time Battler didn't suspect at all that there were less people, he suspected there were more. That red served the intended purpose without revealing anything more than what was necessary. Even so... personally I think that the mere fact that she refused to state that there were 18 people, was a hint that there were less.
But you can't deny that she did try to distract him so that he wouldn't notice the "no more than 18" part. She uses that kind of sleight of hand all the time, giving him information in red but tricking him into misapplying it. I'm not claiming it's a bad thing, just that it's one of her favorite tactics.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:25   Link #1337
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So let me get this straight.
You basically say that someone got "stabbed" and closed the room from inside after the culprit left?

Well, the key to Natsuhi's room was found inside, so this scenario could be possible even if the manual lock didn't exist.

Anyway if this is what you mean, it's nothing very new. This solution has been speculated since a long while.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:27   Link #1338
cmos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The bold statement is enough, and it would be really weird for this twilight alone to be incorrect in term of modus operandi.
So? The chest also has back and front sides. Suppose that the stake was stuck between his shoulder blades, isn't it a 'chest'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Strange. Maybe it was an author typo, and the anime got it right?
We've discussed this already few pages back. In the anime he's lying face up and the stake is in his heart. But it's in George's heart too, so that proves how reliable anime is.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:31   Link #1339
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So? The chest also has back and front sides. Suppose that the stake was stuck between his shoulder blades, isn't it a 'chest'?
I think the japanese word doesn't possess that ambiguity.
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Old 2010-09-14, 10:44   Link #1340
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Anatomically, you cannot call "chest" when someone is showing you their back at all.
What's behind the chest is the human's back.

Otherwise, people would have said that Jessica was gouged to the chest, which is obviously wrong.
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