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Old 2010-10-06, 05:04   Link #1481
Used Can
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How about this? Battler was, indeed, never on the island. Things went just as they usually went, meaning that Ange was there. They all died because of the explosion, and when this news reached Battler's ears, he went through an existential crisis and severe depression. In order to overcome it, he had a sex-change and now goes as Ushiromiya Ange. Oh, and Amakusa is Asumu's son - i.e. the other Battler.
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Old 2010-10-06, 10:50   Link #1482
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
In theory there's nothing wrong with the idea, but it would be quite odd in the "future" context as Battler not going ought to be fairly common knowledge. There are things that might support it (Beatrice's evasiveness on whether he could've prevented it if he hadn't returned, Bern's suggestion that the massacre would happen even in Lion's world). Still, not many things. It also feels sort of anticlimactic in the face of BATTLER's ep7 promise.

"You want to know the real story? Pssh, I dunno, I wasn't even there."
Well, who would know whether Battler was on the island or not? I mean, if Eva told Ange that Battler was there (seems like something she'd do) then... well, that's what she'd have to assume. On the other hand, the fact that noone seems to be able to verify his prescence there would give her hope that Battler was still alive (and thus a reason to try and find him).

For the real story? Let's say Battler actually fully remembers his sin, but didn't think it was important. Then he reads the message bottles from Beatrice, and, suddenly, it all makes sense to him...

In other words, the first 4 stories are all targetted directly at Battler, but to some extent coded. Episodes 1 and 2 are meant to tell him it was all his fault, and are kindof coded with things he'd notice but other people wouldn't. Episodes 3 and 4 are from Ange, and tell him that, no matter what he did, she still wants him to come home. No idea about Chiru.
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Old 2010-10-06, 11:20   Link #1483
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It's not just what Eva does though. Assume for the sake of argument that he really didn't go. What follows?

Battler has no known reason to capitalize on the disaster and disappear from wherever he was. So at the time of the incident he should still be somewhere, and he shouldn't get any news about the disaster before October 6th when Captain Kawabata and the police discover it. Unless he inexplicably doesn't leave his home/apartment/whatever for the entire weekend of the 4th to the 6th, someone somewhere would've seen him out to eat, at a store, in a park, something like that.

Sure, the police don't initially know which members of the family were present. However, they will very quickly track down Ange and Kyrie's father, verifying Ange is alive. They will also presumably look for Battler either there or at his last known address, and if anyone saw him during the weekend, they'll know he wasn't on the island. Logically, they shouldn't even need that, they'd probably just find him. If he weren't on the island, there's just about no chance of Ange and the police and thus the public in general not knowing all about it.

But even if nobody saw him, and thus nobody can initially verify whether he went, what reason does he have to evade being located and vanish for 12 years? He's not in line to inherit the family assets if Eva is alive, and even if she weren't, Ange would just get saddled with it anyway and he'd have to know that. He wasn't on the island so he has no dark secret to cover up or culprit to evade or urgent business to attend.

Basically, if he didn't go, why make the effort to convince the world and his sister that he did? The alternative would be to suggest he was actually involved with the incident somehow, and disappeared according to plan...
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Old 2010-10-07, 18:10   Link #1484
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Small question about ep 7:
How much (if any) of the 1998 was explored?
Was there an explanation behind the whole Okonogi phone call at the end of episode 6?


Thanks!
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Old 2010-10-07, 18:21   Link #1485
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Originally Posted by actawesome View Post
Small question about ep 7:
How much (if any) of the 1998 was explored?
Was there an explanation behind the whole Okonogi phone call at the end of episode 6?


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Ange is the only thing from 1998 you see in it, if I remember correctly.
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Old 2010-10-10, 02:46   Link #1486
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The Okonogi phone call was there to explain the fight between Ange and Kyrie's relatives on the island at the end of arc 4 in 1998.

That is, to explain that Amakusa was actually sent along with her to kill off not only the Sumaderas following Ange, in order to ensure Okonogi no longer had them looking over his shoulder and leveraging him, but also to kill off Ange as well, so he wouldn't have to worry about her either(as Eva was at that point deceased).

Therefore the fight scene was actually revealed to have not been the Stakes killing everyone, but Amakusa with a high caliber sniper rifle hidden nearby, and the events of that fight scene were likely followed by Ange being executed along with them.
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Old 2010-10-11, 07:37   Link #1487
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Here's the issue we're missing:

Why does Lion's existence prevent Battler's return? Thats honestly critical. There's a condition to Battler's return that isn't met due to Lion's presence, rather than Yasu's
I've thought about it too while reading about this episode. Sure, supposing Batller did remember the promise (Kepping in mind that, at the time, Battler thought "Beatrice" and "Shannon" were two diferent people).

First of all, what would that promise be?

It is implied many times that "Beatrice"/Yasu always wanted to get out of the island together with her loved one so her promise with Battler should be something along this lines.
After that we all know he wouldn't go to Rokkenjima during the next 6 years. In Yasu's point of view, it would seen that he forgot the promise since the cousins come, at least, once in a year.
Then George appeared offering the opportunity to make her dream come true (Poor bastard...) so she must have taken this chance to forget Battler and move on.

Then in 1986, Battler returned because of two reasons:
~His dad's request
~The promise made with Yasu

And I say that Battler still loved Yasu and Yasu still loved Battler at that time

Why I think that way:
~Battler didn't fall in love ever since Yasu and when he learned about George and "Shannon" (Probably prepared for that kind of thing to happen, because he was gone for a long time), thought about starting a serious relantionship.
~"Shannon" remembered everything about Battler six years ago. (And of couse, almost let him touch her breast lol kidding)

Of course, Yasu wasn't expecting this. So, She made a bet and, to do so, used the epitaph (Almost like tossing a coin to choose what you'll do) and bet on a miracle

About the messages in the bottles: They were indeed written and trown at the sea by Yasu in case of the worst: Nobody solving the epitaph. If the disaster didn't occur it would be just a tale. If it did it would serve as a way to find the truth. Meaning that it was like a will to her.

Well, that's my 'truth' (What I think).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Btw, Has anyone thought about Erika being alive?

I mean, if Shakannon is true (What I belive is the case), wouldn't mean there were 16 people on Rokkenjima?

And yet: Even if you do join us there are 17 people.

I believe that, of course, she didn't take part on the events occurred on Rokkenjima. But....

I have a theory about it:
When Erika said she was going to accept the truth about herself, she belived that she was dead. However Bern might have lied to her, to use her as a piece. When the duel between BeatBatora and Erika was about to happen, Battler asked Beato if that was okay, almost like it would reveal Beatrice's 'heart'
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Old 2010-10-11, 08:16   Link #1488
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If Yasu has to exist for Battler to return, there is a very strong argument to be made that he didn't forget anything. If Rudolf couldn't bring him back (and Rudolf says several times throughout multiple episodes that he groveled just about as hard as he possibly could), and if it wasn't the family's state (remember, in Lion's world the family is stable and succession and inheritance are not at issue, and even if financial problems arose, Kinzo and Lion would probably be able to fix them), then the existence of this person is just about the only reason he returned.

Of course that could or could not be the genesis of the "sin," but one way or another it seems like that's the reason he came back.

Could that be what Beatrice meant in ep4? The "true" Ushiromiya Battler had a sin and would remember it. Because the "true" Ushiromiya Battler did. That's why he went to the island. Battler didn't forget the promise/sin, everyone else did, and just assumed it was his fault too. Thus, the fictional/meta-fictional Battler doesn't remember something he should have.
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Old 2010-10-11, 08:31   Link #1489
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I don't think Battler remembered his "promise", there is absolutely nothing that suggests he did.

Two are the factors that caused Battler to change his mind and go back to the Ushiromiya's family register:

1) The death of both of his grandparents from his mother's side
2) Rudolf's prostration and sincere (really?) apology


So in the world where Lion Ushiromiya is the apparent heir, one or both of those two events didn't happen.

I must say that the death of both Battler's grandparents just before the family meeting of 1986, which is said by Beatrice herself to be a very peculiar year, sounds very suspicious to me.

I wonder if there's Kyrie behind this.
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Old 2010-10-11, 08:58   Link #1490
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think Battler remembered his "promise", there is absolutely nothing that suggests he did.

Two are the factors that caused Battler to change his mind and go back to the Ushiromiya's family register:

1) The death of both of his grandparents from his mother's side
2) Rudolf's prostration and sincere (really?) apology


So in the world where Lion Ushiromiya is the apparent heir, one or both of those two events didn't happen.

I must say that the death of both Battler's grandparents just before the family meeting of 1986, which is said by Beatrice herself to be a very peculiar year, sounds very suspicious to me.

I wonder if there's Kyrie behind this.
Ohh totally forgot about the death of the grandparents.... But, in any case, I don't think Kyrie would have something to gain by killing them. If she wanted to kill Battler it would be easier if she did it directly. Besides, doesn't it have to be something to link Battler and Leon?

(Or it could have all been coincidental )
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Old 2010-10-11, 09:16   Link #1491
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think Battler remembered his "promise", there is absolutely nothing that suggests he did.
Except that part where he's supposedly not back in Lion's world, where the primary difference is the person to whom he is supposed to have made some sort of promise which necessitates his return at some point apparently was never around in that capacity to be issued any sort of promise. And that Battler returned in the world where the promise was made, and didn't in the one where it wasn't.

But other than that, yeah, absolutely no evidence at all.
Quote:
Two are the factors that caused Battler to change his mind and go back to the Ushiromiya's family register:

1) The death of both of his grandparents from his mother's side
2) Rudolf's prostration and sincere (really?) apology

So in the world where Lion Ushiromiya is the apparent heir, one or both of those two events didn't happen.
Or, those are the public factors to which common knowledge would be attuned. Presumably it wouldn't be difficult to research either of those things, and thus it would be assumed that those were the reasons for Battler's return. If you were writing a story about Ushiromiya Battler returning to his family, and those two reasons were the only reasons you knew about, of course you'd assume that one or both of those reasons had to have been the explanation.

However, if Battler had an intensely private and personal reason for his return, a reason never communicated to anyone in public, then no subsequent viewers/readers/authors/thinkers/whatever would be aware of this motive. The only way to even find such a motive would be to dig it out of the guts of the text, assuming there exists enough buried in there to suggest an alternative explanation.

Rudolf seemed quite surprised that his most recent attempts to persuade Battler actually worked. I'm not sure he ever expected that they would. Is it not possible, however, that they didn't? "Rudolf can't persuade him = Battler doesn't come back" does not imply "Battler does come back = Rudolf persuaded him," but Battler is always free to allow his father to think that.
Quote:
I must say that the death of both Battler's grandparents just before the family meeting of 1986, which is said by Beatrice herself to be a very peculiar year, sounds very suspicious to me.

I wonder if there's Kyrie behind this.
You call evidence non-evidence, then make something up just as speculative as the rest of us have. This is probably not sound reasoning, but I'm not going to dismiss it either (because Kyrie could be behind just about anything at this point).
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Old 2010-10-11, 10:57   Link #1492
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In EP 4 Battler says, to Beatrice in Meta-World after the Piece-Beatrice tells him he sinned, he didn't have to go to the family conference - it was his choice to do so. So something in current Oct 5th 1986 made Battler come back and this factor was not present in the alternative Oct 5th 1986. Whatever made Battler return must have come from within Rokkenjima more than outside of it.
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Old 2010-10-11, 11:56   Link #1493
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Except that part where he's supposedly not back in Lion's world, where the primary difference is the person to whom he is supposed to have made some sort of promise which necessitates his return at some point apparently was never around in that capacity to be issued any sort of promise. And that Battler returned in the world where the promise was made, and didn't in the one where it wasn't.
I wouldn't say that that's the only difference. There's a lot of different factors between the two worlds. Of course it's easy to think this is the closest thing to a connection with Battler's return, but it isn't necessarily the one.
As I said there's absolutely no hint of Battler returning because he remembered the promise, and actually there is strong evidence of the contrary. Plus if Battler really remembered from the very start, the whole tragedy would have never happened, probably.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, if Battler had an intensely private and personal reason for his return, a reason never communicated to anyone in public, then no subsequent viewers/readers/authors/thinkers/whatever would be aware of this motive. The only way to even find such a motive would be to dig it out of the guts of the text, assuming there exists enough buried in there to suggest an alternative explanation.
I don't think that would be fair on our regards. There has to be hint if it is as you say. But more than that, it would be even more unfair because there is a lot of evidence that Battler has always been totally clueless about any kind of promise and we also have his direct perspective that never once suggested he had any ulterior motive for coming back.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Rudolf seemed quite surprised that his most recent attempts to persuade Battler actually worked. I'm not sure he ever expected that they would. Is it not possible, however, that they didn't? "Rudolf can't persuade him = Battler doesn't come back" does not imply "Battler does come back = Rudolf persuaded him," but Battler is always free to allow his father to think that.
The problem is, yet again, that we have Battler first-hand testimony about that. He said it himself that it was Rudolf sincere apology that ultimately made him change his mind. Of course I guess you dismiss Meta Battler's thoughts because you don't consider him the same person as Battler, but I do not.

I am fairly sure that what Meta Battler said about the reason that made him come back is exactly as it was told in EP4.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You call evidence non-evidence, then make something up just as speculative as the rest of us have. This is probably not sound reasoning, but I'm not going to dismiss it either (because Kyrie could be behind just about anything at this point).
But there is evidence that Kyrie would resort to murder to get what she wants. If for some reasons she wanted Battler to go back to the family register or if for some reasons she would want him to attend that particular family meeting then she could have arranged both his grandparents deaths and Rudolf's apology.

Remember, what we have concluded on lack of evidence. A lack of evidence that you wouldn't normally expect means nothing, but the lack of evidence of something you would expect is suspicious.

It was never said what kind of death befall on Battler's grandparents, and this is something I would expect.

Quote:
In EP 4 Battler says, to Beatrice in Meta-World after the Piece-Beatrice tells him he sinned, he didn't have to go to the family conference - it was his choice to do so. So something in current Oct 5th 1986 made Battler come back and this factor was not present in the alternative Oct 5th 1986. Whatever made Battler return must have come from within Rokkenjima more than outside of it.
That's not necessarily true. It doesn't need to be a direct consequence. You all expect that the changes between the two worlds directly affected Battler's decision. But we are talking about 19 years here. So there are many possible ramifications. You must consider the possibility that the changes between the two worlds caused some change on a middle factor X that in turn affected Battler's decision. There's no need for a direct cause.

Since we know Rudolf is the primary cause of Battler's return, it is quite possible that the changes of the two worlds affected Rudolf himself which in turn affected Battler. I can't see why you should dismiss this possibility.
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Old 2010-10-11, 13:10   Link #1494
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I wouldn't say that that's the only difference. There's a lot of different factors between the two worlds. Of course it's easy to think this is the closest thing to a connection with Battler's return, but it isn't necessarily the one.
As I said there's absolutely no hint of Battler returning because he remembered the promise, and actually there is strong evidence of the contrary. Plus if Battler really remembered from the very start, the whole tragedy would have never happened, probably.
We actually have a very curiously evasive lack of assurance on Beatrice's part in ep4 that the tragedy would not have happened had Battler not returned, and a claim in ep7 that Battler's timing for returning was the major amplifying factor, but not the direct consequence of returning at all.

That's a problem. Also, you continue to be unable to distinguish between Ushiromiya Battler the person and Ushiromiya Battler the fictional character.
Quote:
I don't think that would be fair on our regards. There has to be hint if it is as you say. But more than that, it would be even more unfair because there is a lot of evidence that Battler has always been totally clueless about any kind of promise and we also have his direct perspective that never once suggested he had any ulterior motive for coming back.
The problem is, yet again, that we have Battler first-hand testimony about that. He said it himself that it was Rudolf sincere apology that ultimately made him change his mind. Of course I guess you dismiss Meta Battler's thoughts because you don't consider him the same person as Battler, but I do not.
The human being "Ushiromiya Battler" and the literary character "Ushiromiya Battler" are different people by necessity. Both are characters in the fiction of Umineko. But one is also fiction within a fiction. Whatever your perspective on Author Theory, message bottles and a claim by an author (who may or may not exist) place about 6 fictional stories in play. The Battler who existed in those stories isn't the same person as the Battler who "really" went to the island in Umineko's version of "real life." Assuming such a "real" Battler actually existed, he is a distinctly unknowable person through the lens of fiction written by other people (as, so far as we know, none of the claimant authors have said they're Ushiromiya Battler).

Therefore, if Writer X believes Battler returned because Rudolf apologized, they could and would write Battler saying "That's why I came back." They cannot know why "real" Battler actually did come back. We've learned this lesson before, with Kinzo. Who was the "real" Ushiromiya Kinzo? We have no earthly idea. His characterization is broad and impressive, yet we have come to draw conclusions about his true motives. In fact, Yasu existing at all requires that we make assumptions about Kinzo's true motives, assumptions that have never directly appeared in the fiction.

As for Battler having an ulterior motive, it's quite heavily supported textually.
  • The cousins remark that he seems different both physically and otherwise.
  • Kyrie's discussion of romances falls strangely into place.
  • Rosa accuses him of being an impostor with a hidden motive.
  • Beatrice says the "true" Ushiromiya Battler has a sin and should remember it.
  • Battler behaves very strangely in End and Dawn.
  • Remembering everything elevates Battler to "another level" and dramatically alters where he stands in the meta-world, going from dogged antagonist to the new leader of the witch side.
  • Battler's conditional promise in Requiem is very strange, as it places upon him an obligation, but only if Yasu meets one herself. A condition of this nature entails that Yasu not only should, but must communicate clearly to Battler when it is time to perform his side. He can't just forget it.
The possibility that the promise was in fact a strong motivation for the "real" Battler to return is up in the air. We know that fictional Battler absolutely forgot, and had a different reason to return. But that reason is a catbox rationalization; we can never know if it was true for the "real" Battler, unless he appears post-incident and informs us.
Quote:
I am fairly sure that what Meta Battler said about the reason that made him come back is exactly as it was told in EP4.
So you admit to being irrationally certain for no particular reason. I don't begrudge you thinking something is true, but you inject certainty in places where it makes no sense to be certain because Ryukishi is intentionally trying to make us not be certain.
Quote:
But there is evidence that Kyrie would resort to murder to get what she wants. If for some reasons she wanted Battler to go back to the family register or if for some reasons she would want him to attend that particular family meeting then she could have arranged both his grandparents deaths and Rudolf's apology.
Sure, there's evidence Kyrie can be ruthless and we have an outright statement from her (unlike any other character, even George in full-on Demon King mode) that she was going to commit murder. But it took 18 years of pain to resolve to murder Asumu. Are we arguing now that she would also casually off her parents just to maneuver Battler back into play? Doesn't she hate him too?
Quote:
Remember, what we have concluded on lack of evidence. A lack of evidence that you wouldn't normally expect means nothing, but the lack of evidence of something you would expect is suspicious.

It was never said what kind of death befall on Battler's grandparents, and this is something I would expect.
Nor Asumu, nor anything about Asumu. It's generally a void of knowledge, but that doesn't prove foul play on Kyrie's part. And if it did, Ryukishi would be cheating, because I find it improbable to believe that if she in fact did kill Asumu and both of her parents (or one/the other) that nobody was aware of the prospect of foul play.
Quote:
That's not necessarily true. It doesn't need to be a direct consequence. You all expect that the changes between the two worlds directly affected Battler's decision. But we are talking about 19 years here. So there are many possible ramifications. You must consider the possibility that the changes between the two worlds caused some change on a middle factor X that in turn affected Battler's decision. There's no need for a direct cause.

Since we know Rudolf is the primary cause of Battler's return, it is quite possible that the changes of the two worlds affected Rudolf himself which in turn affected Battler. I can't see why you should dismiss this possibility.
Because it's bad literature and thus a bad hint if we're shown a parallel existence where there is one major change (and argue all you want, but the Lion/Yasu identity is the sole major change and every disparity in the worlds that Will observed seemed to derive from it), but that change is only tangentially related to the distinction.

What that sequence is clearly showing us is that Battler's departure is an independent event. Lion doesn't exist, Battler leaves. Lion exists, Battler leaves. We are then shown a difference: Lion doesn't exist, Battler returns. Lion exists, Battler does not return. The conclusion dangled before our faces is "Battler's return is conditioned on something which exists when Lion does not, but his departure is not so conditioned."

If that isn't a hint, it's sloppy writing of the highest order.
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Old 2010-10-11, 14:04   Link #1495
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We actually have a very curiously evasive lack of assurance on Beatrice's part in ep4 that the tragedy would not have happened had Battler not returned, and a claim in ep7 that Battler's timing for returning was the major amplifying factor, but not the direct consequence of returning at all.
Also, in Ep5, Battler interprets Beatrice's Ep4 lack of assurance as complete assurance for some reason that I can't understand.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The possibility that the promise was in fact a strong motivation for the "real" Battler to return is up in the air. We know that fictional Battler absolutely forgot, and had a different reason to return. But that reason is a catbox rationalization; we can never know if it was true for the "real" Battler, unless he appears post-incident and informs us.
Actually, here's a meditation topic:

It is practically assured that 1-2 authors and 3-4 authors are distinct, see above. Ep2 author might very faintly mention a promise (Beatrice's "I keep my promises" and related meta-dialogue have to either derive from a bottle text or be present in it) and Ep4 author brings up the idea of Battler's sin. Ep7 author appears to be so certain that these are the same that they go and write that outright.

But assuming we trust Ep7 author any, how the hell do they know of either?
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Old 2010-10-11, 14:05   Link #1496
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So you admit to being irrationally certain for no particular reason. I don't begrudge you thinking something is true, but you inject certainty in places where it makes no sense to be certain because Ryukishi is intentionally trying to make us not be certain.
No, there is a very particular reason, and that comes from the ability to read the author intentions where he wants to give us facts and where he's toying with us with fake hints. After this many years I think I have reached a good understanding on how Ryuukishi's writing style works and that's because of that and not some irrational belief that I'm sure that what Battler said there is exactly what happened, simply because Ryuukishi wouldn't have any reason to give us false information there, and even if he wanted to give us false informations about that matter, he wouldn't have done it that way, it's not his style.

As for Battler and meta-Battler, your arguments do not stand, because the Metaworld is not fiction at all according to the author theory, the games are. The metaworld is a layer of existence that comes as a consequence of both real world and fictional world, however Meta Battler most certainly comes from the real Battler, which means he's a perfect carbon copy of the original. The story wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Quote:
Because it's bad literature and thus a bad hint if we're shown a parallel existence where there is one major change (and argue all you want, but the Lion/Yasu identity is the sole major change and every disparity in the worlds that Will observed seemed to derive from it), but that change is only tangentially related to the distinction.
That's not the only major change. There is another very major change that apparently you totally missed.

In Lion's world there is an apparent heir.
In the regular world there isn't any.

In the normal world everyone, even Battler, has a shot at becoming the heir.
In Lion's world, Lion is the only one who can take that place.
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Old 2010-10-11, 14:57   Link #1497
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No, there is a very particular reason, and that comes from the ability to read the author intentions where he wants to give us facts and where he's toying with us with fake hints. After this many years I think I have reached a good understanding on how Ryuukishi's writing style works and that's because of that and not some irrational belief that I'm sure that what Battler said there is exactly what happened, simply because Ryuukishi wouldn't have any reason to give us false information there, and even if he wanted to give us false informations about that matter, he wouldn't have done it that way, it's not his style.
No offense meant, but I don't trust anyone who says they have a feel for how Ryukishi writes. Because I know I've gotten comfortable with the idea and been thrown by him before.

And your argument, besides, makes not a lick of sense and has not an ounce of support.

"I am certain this is the absolute truth, because I feel like it is the absolute truth."

That line of argument can use some work. Again, I don't care if you think it, but you're throwing around absolutes here that you have no right to use.
Quote:
As for Battler and meta-Battler, your arguments do not stand, because the Metaworld is not fiction at all according to the author theory, the games are. The metaworld is a layer of existence that comes as a consequence of both real world and fictional world, however Meta Battler most certainly comes from the real Battler, which means he's a perfect carbon copy of the original. The story wouldn't make any sense otherwise.
That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, your declaration that an argument "doesn't stand" that you are completely unfit to make because you don't get to decide things like that notwithstanding.

The meta-world is fiction "of a sort." Exactly what kind of fiction, we don't know. It could be anywhere from higher-order thought and rumination overlaid on the "real world" to a portion of the in-universe fiction itself. We don't know. We may never know. Otherwise, I mostly agree with you up to that point.

Then you go into this insane and wholly unsupported claim that Meta-Battler must be a carbon copy of "Real" Battler. Ummmmm, why? Because "the story wouldn't make sense?" Nonsense. The story can make perfect sense as long as the Battler in that story works the way the author thinks Ushiromiya Battler worked. Whether that depiction of Ushiromiya Battler is correct is known only to Ushiromiya Battler himself. Core aspects of his personality are undoubtedly correct, else people who knew him would object to the portrayal (such as Ange). However, Ushiromiya Battler knew things that nobody else knew. He had thoughts and feelings that nobody else had. And Meta-Battler may have finally understood that, and in so doing (ironically) came to that understanding of "himself."

To call him a "carbon copy" is absolute nonsense. No one can be sure of that, and that aside, I believe that it is one of Ryukishi's major thematic points in all of Umineko that people cannot easily be understood solely from secondary sources (Kinzo, Eva, Natsuhi, the list goes on).

Does that mean I'm right? I don't know. But you don't know either, so don't tell people their claims can't stand up to your invisible intuitive personal belief as to what the absolute truth is in a story that's missing its final chapter, and may be left with some very large interpretive gaps even after that.
Quote:
That's not the only major change. There is another very major change that apparently you totally missed.

In Lion's world there is an apparent heir.
In the regular world there isn't any.

In the normal world everyone, even Battler, has a shot at becoming the heir.
In Lion's world, Lion is the only one who can take that place.
And you are missing a rather major point, which is that very few people ever treat the epitaph with absolute seriousness as a headship selection test, and among these people, Battler only very rarely hears that this might be the case (not in every episode, for sure, even when he hears about the epitaph). It's mostly Eva's idea (and as ep3 shows, this might be a personal desire), and it's Eva who leverages the idea - once she can accept it - that Battler can be acknowledged as the head by three of the four families and force Krauss to recognize him as well. Who the head is actually isn't all that important to most of the characters in most of the episodes, except inasmuch as it can solve their financial problems (they go for Battler in a heartbeat once it's agreed they'll divvy up the gold). They aren't even that averse to letting Krauss keep it if they get paid.

There is considerable evidence, based on his fascination with the portrait and unfamiliarity with the epitaph, that Battler had no idea it even existed prior to October 4, 1986. It's possible, but seemingly unlikely. He'd either have to have secretly come to Rokkenjima or had somebody contact him to tell him about the epitaph. Otherwise, how can something motivate him if he doesn't know about it?
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Old 2010-10-11, 18:52   Link #1498
TehChron
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Generally Im not on the same side of an argument as Renall, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and agree with him on this one. He certainly has a stronger grasp on the relative layers of fiction, Jan-Poo, and with regards to the Promise relationship, his conclusions are based in whats established in the text, rather than inferences about "what Ryukishi means" and "what makes sense".

The idea that we should just ignore that discrepancy between the two worlds "because thats not what Ryukishi is trying to say" is illogical. Moreover, no matter how you approach Author theory, Meta-Battler, BATTLER, and "Battler" are all fictional constructs from our point of view. And the fact of the matter is, we are hit over the head multiple times with the fact that the Pieces are not aware of everything, and that the Game Master is more informed than us.

Extrapolate that the "Game Master" is the writer of the stories, and it makes sense that the writer is leveraging their awareness of the "truth" to make hints within the fiction pointing towards the real truth.

What is the point of Battler's promise, if it doesn't affect his decision to return to Rokkenjimma? Why does it affect the outcome of the murders if he doesn't remember it at all?

Remember, in Episode 4 the "promise" was brought up only after the majority of the twilights had taken place. Rendering it rather irrelevant to the actual deaths in that story.

So if we're going to take Episode 4 and Piece/Meta Battler's reaction to the "sin" question (which at this point has only been hinted to be related to Battler's relationship with Shannon/Yasu) literally, then the promise itself is simply not related to the murders at all. And therefore, if it's not really related, how does "Battler's Sin" amplify the tragedy?

Battler simply being there isnt enough of an explanation for the murders to be worse. He had to have some kind of reaction to it, which would imply he holds some memory of it.

That being said, the idea that "19 years of difference could mean anything regarding why Battler returned or not, it doesnt necessarily have anything to do with Lion/Yasu".

Sure it doesn't. Then why would Ryukishi even make a point of Battler not being there in Episode 7 unless it was relevant? And there really weren't any hinted reasons as to why Battler wouldn't be there, since Rudolph continues to beg him, and pretty much all other conditions (from Battler's perspective) are the same as in the Yasu-Rokkenjimma aside from the existence of Yasu herself.

Battler arbitrarily decided that Rudolph's begging was good enough while Shannon existed, but it wasn't enough when she didn't? You assume Ryukishi is really lazy, then.
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Old 2010-10-11, 19:10   Link #1499
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
What is the point of Battler's promise, if it doesn't affect his decision to return to Rokkenjimma? Why does it affect the outcome of the murders if he doesn't remember it at all?
The text would say that it's exactly because he doesn't remember that it effects the outcome of the murders. "Not remembering his sin is also his sin". Once Battler remembers his sin he's atoned for it and by then it's not a sin anymore.

Quote:
`"......Remember, Ushiromiya Battler.`.........Also, not being able to remember that is your sin. For that reason, I shall forgive you.If you can remember that, I shall forgive you. .......Remembering that is my test of atonement for you."
It also echos the Frederica Bernkastel poem exactly.
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Old 2010-10-11, 19:28   Link #1500
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No offense meant, but I don't trust anyone who says they have a feel for how Ryukishi writes. Because I know I've gotten comfortable with the idea and been thrown by him before.

And your argument, besides, makes not a lick of sense and has not an ounce of support.

"I am certain this is the absolute truth, because I feel like it is the absolute truth."
I didn't mean to use that affirmation as an argument. "I'm sure of x" is not an argument, it's a statement. Then of course I don't expect you to agree, but nothing prevents me from making an assertion. You can counter if you actually have an element to disprove what I said, but you don't. You said that my certainty was based on nothing and that was irrational, but I know this is false. You can say that my conclusions are based on wrong reasonings, but not that they are based on no reasoning at all.
This is a game, time will say if I was wrong or right. And not much time left at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The meta-world is fiction "of a sort." Exactly what kind of fiction, we don't know. It could be anywhere from higher-order thought and rumination overlaid on the "real world" to a portion of the in-universe fiction itself. We don't know. We may never know. Otherwise, I mostly agree with you up to that point.
What really matters is what is a fiction inside the story itself in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Then you go into this insane and wholly unsupported claim that Meta-Battler must be a carbon copy of "Real" Battler. Ummmmm, why? Because "the story wouldn't make sense?" Nonsense.
You used that very same argument yourself in many occasions even a few minutes ago. Since when the "bad writing" argument is nonsense?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The story can make perfect sense as long as the Battler in that story works the way the author thinks Ushiromiya Battler worked. Whether that depiction of Ushiromiya Battler is correct is known only to Ushiromiya Battler himself. Core aspects of his personality are undoubtedly correct, else people who knew him would object to the portrayal (such as Ange). However, Ushiromiya Battler knew things that nobody else knew. He had thoughts and feelings that nobody else had. And Meta-Battler may have finally understood that, and in so doing (ironically) came to that understanding of "himself."
So you do agree that it wouldn't make any sense if Meta-Battler wasn't substantially the same person as Battler, but for some (inexplicable reasons) you think there might be some differences. Why? Where did you get this idea?
Why this Meta-existence is almost like Battler but not 100% like him? The metaworld doesn't make much sense if the things you see in it come from somewhere. If Meta-Battler is, like it seems apparent even to you, a transposition of real Battler in the real world, then it is only logical to assume he is a copy. So we know where Meta-Battler comes from, he comes from real Battler. But where those differences you claim existing come from? And what kind of intervention caused the come to being of Meta-Battler to not get all the qualities of real Battler but just part of them?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Does that mean I'm right? I don't know. But you don't know either, so don't tell people their claims can't stand up to your invisible intuitive personal belief as to what the absolute truth is in a story that's missing its final chapter, and may be left with some very large interpretive gaps even after that.
When did I do that? I think you are projecting on me your own attitude. You are the one who says that my theories are nonsense not me. I always talk for myself and my own opinion, except when I'm talking about undeniable facts.

For example:

Quote:
Of course I guess you dismiss Meta Battler's thoughts because you don't consider him the same person as Battler, but I do not.
This doesn't imply in any way that your opinion is objectively wrong, although I do think is wrong, but you think I'm wrong on this as well.

What I meant there was simply: "I know already that you won't agree with me, but there isn't much I can do about that except telling you that I don't agree with the very basic assumption that makes you think otherwise".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And you are missing a rather major point, which is that very few people ever treat the epitaph with absolute seriousness as a headship selection test, and among these people, Battler only very rarely hears that this might be the case (not in every episode, for sure, even when he hears about the epitaph). It's mostly Eva's idea (and as ep3 shows, this might be a personal desire), and it's Eva who leverages the idea - once she can accept it - that Battler can be acknowledged as the head by three of the four families and force Krauss to recognize him as well. Who the head is actually isn't all that important to most of the characters in most of the episodes, except inasmuch as it can solve their financial problems (they go for Battler in a heartbeat once it's agreed they'll divvy up the gold). They aren't even that averse to letting Krauss keep it if they get paid.

There is considerable evidence, based on his fascination with the portrait and unfamiliarity with the epitaph, that Battler had no idea it even existed prior to October 4, 1986. It's possible, but seemingly unlikely. He'd either have to have secretly come to Rokkenjima or had somebody contact him to tell him about the epitaph. Otherwise, how can something motivate him if he doesn't know about it?
I don't agree with this. The adults seems to be uninterested on this issue, but that's only because they don't believe the ten tons of gold actually exist.

There is evidence that once they understand that gold=true they automatically take the heir issue a lot more seriously. And I don't think it can be said it is a sudden switch of their thinking. They all must have thought that the epitaph was meant to decide the new heir long time before the actual events of 1986.

Evidences are the whole adults (except Krauss and Natsuhi but they are biased) in EP5 and Rosa and Eva in EP3 which think it's absolutely a given that Eva became the new family head. Hell they don't even think that Krauss can possibly make any serious opposition to that fact, and they take for granted that everyone else will acknowledge Eva as the new heir.
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