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Old 2010-11-20, 19:25   Link #1641
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That's kind of ridiculous. There's no way to know that everyone would behave in that manner. That, and it's not entirely clear if things went down that road by design or chance anyway.

"There's a chance I'll make everyone murder each other" isn't really mastermind territory.
That's a bit beside the point if we find it ridiculous or not.

1. Beato said, as ridiculous as it is, that she planned for every possible variations including the case where everyone solves the epitaph before the first twilight.
2. Kyrie reasons that everyone would've reached the same conclusion she did and one of them would've done it if she hadn't. Uppon hearing this, tho she's in denial, Eva knows she's right deep inside.

So you are suggesting that it's okay for Kyrie to be able to guess it, but it's ridiculous if Beato guessed the same thing as her? Come on.
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Old 2010-11-20, 19:43   Link #1642
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Yeah, it's equally ridiculous in both cases.
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Old 2010-11-20, 20:28   Link #1643
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Which is probably why that exchange never happened.
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Old 2010-11-21, 10:20   Link #1644
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Well even if it didn't happen it's ... "as much happening" as basically any scene we've been shown ever since arc 1.

It's like saying "yeah but this lie is MORE a lie then this other lie", nonsense.

However Will's wedges not working against it screams to me that it's not a game, after all there is no such things as Dine rules or Red Text being valid in the human world.

As things are now I believe the arc 7 tea party to be a mix of what really happened and what Eva assumes happened. In other words, this is what "Eva didn't tell Ange". That doesn't mean Eva understood everything well.
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Old 2010-11-21, 15:13   Link #1645
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Well, for one thing, the Dine Rules and such wouldn't be able to be used anyway; even if it's a complete fabrication, there's two culprits.

Ontop of that, of COURSE some things can be more false than other things. Truth and lies are a spectrum, not a dichonomy. I can....make up someone's words, make up the person who said those words, paraphrase someone incorrectly to give the wrong impression, attribute the wrong true statements to the wrong speaker...
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Old 2010-11-21, 20:09   Link #1646
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However, seeing as it was said in red that it is the truth (agreed the sentence was cut in half and I'm the person most eager to claim red doesn't mean much), I'm not saying it's the 100% truth, but still to arbitrarily discard it because you think it's unbelievable doesn't make it any less valid.

And there's no two culprits if it was part of Yasu's plan to have someone act that way.

Also the rules of Dine is not about working or not, the point is they were said in red (well at least Will began to say them in red). It's not about Dine working or not, it's about Red working or not.
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Old 2010-11-21, 22:51   Link #1647
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Well, regardless, it's because the red was cut that I don't trust it's validity. We've been shown it's possible to say untrue things in Red so long as the sentence isn't completed.
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Old 2010-11-23, 18:08   Link #1648
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Oh man I have the worst kind of bad luck... for once a found some post over on the spoiler/discussions thread and felt the urge to provide some extensive thought about this... and when I finished the thread was closed for escalating drama
Klashikari, you meanie, timing couldn't have been worse j/k
But as this stuff technically addressed ideas about EP7 it should fit here as well and better then letting that go to waste... if I assume wrong let me know. Also as this is just a copy of my pre-existing wall-of-text from before don't know if quotations get messed up.

-------


As their was so much talk (over there) about Takanos interest in becoming a god and the existance ouf Shintoism subtext in Umineko I thought that a good time to address some ideas that were on my mind for a long time anyway. If that was already discussed before sorry, but I'm simply not able to keep up with the pace of this threads. (oh the irony )

As noted before Takanos ideas of godhood seem completely symbolic as a way to gain some kind of assumed "power" / importance and satisfaction in life. I'm really surprised that she may have referenced the idea of a biblical god as that doesn't really fit in that well. But on the other side she also wrote about alien invasions in her notes and is clearly shown to be inflicted with the same symptoms like everybody else perhaps her individual reasonings don't have to be sane ones.

There is a analysis subpage on TVTropes for Higurashi (no link for the sake of everybodys time ) which explains her motivation quite well: its just the idea of Herostratic fame taken to the logical extreme. In more simple words: She wanted that nobody forgets what she did no matter how evil it may be or more precisely she wanted her grandfathers work to get acknowledged by showing its relevance to the world.
Ironically ultimately a futile way to this goal as even the anime showed how everything got covered up by the organisation and Takano would most likely have "outlived her usefulness" regardless of success.

Regarding the idea that LD may be this god: I don't think that works because IMO Takano simple never accomplished anything like this no matter which kakera.
LD is more like her strong motivation given as means to reach this goal given a more complex form like her TIPS letter suggests.

Which brings me to that talk about Shintoism and the relevance of gods to Umineko.... and I think that just not fitting here.
Spoiler for theory:


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I've never really understood the argument that continuing a few elements is the same as rehashing. I think it's pretty obvious by now that Umineko is completely different from Higurashi in structure, characters, how the story is told, and how the answers are given. It's part of the When They Cry series, so it makes sense for a few things to carry through. In fact, if things to hold true to both series but we haven't recognized them yet, I think that means Ryuukishi's an even better writer for keeping the obvious from us for so long.
I don't get this either. My term for this approach would be evolution of style. After all he took all this "rehashed" ideas and put them in bigger and more developed contexts. E.g.:

- Higurashi had kakeras but only some vage ideas of a connecting place for all of them but Umineko gives us a whole meta world almost as the primary level for narration and gives us some really impressive world building for all this abstract places. And he starts this interesting analogy for kakeras as alternative books for the same story

- Higurashi had some metaphors about games and game theory but Umineko build its entire plot around this analogies.

- Higurashi had Bernkastel as a "by-product" of Rikas (n)everchanging fate but Umineko takes this character (or some VERY similar ... before anyone starts complaining) and adds a lot of depth be integration "rivals" and old "friends" to play off against, hints of more background story and a lot more characterization as a whole.

Also the relevance of the loops for the story and mystery get much more transparent much earlier and many major themes are totally different some even subverting or mocking ideas of his first series.

So if thats only rehashing and has no creative or intellectual merit I really don't see any artistic work which doesn't invent the wheel anew has either.
So much for this random rantings about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
[...] We see how this happens. Since she has no friends, her imaginary world takes up more and more of her life. Then, the few friends she makes actually treat that imaginary world as if it was real. Then, she finds out how exciting it it to make people unwittingly believe in her imaginary world (key trick). [...]
I agree with this idea and it would most likely result in Yasu as the sole reason for the witch illusion as murder to work out so well. After all for one reason or another everyone accepted this fantasy ideas.

But the reason I'm refering to this is: I think thats not just Yasu starting to "mess" with everybody minds. I think there could be another influence to this.
EP4 is addressing so much about the relationship of Maria and Beato that I would suggest she also was a catalyst for this development. What I'm especially referring to is this stuff about the universe made of and bound to both of them and this strange event where Maria summons boy Sakutarou for the the first. Both of this scenes indicate that Maria is similarly important to Beato as the other way round.

Spoiler for longer theory about this:
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Old 2010-11-23, 18:29   Link #1649
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Quote:
I don't get this either. My term for this approach would be evolution of style. After all he took all this "rehashed" ideas and put them in bigger and more developed contexts. E.g.:

- Higurashi had kakeras but only some vage ideas of a connecting place for all of them but Umineko gives us a whole meta world almost as the primary level for narration and gives us some really impressive world building for all this abstract places. And he starts this interesting analogy for kakeras as alternative books for the same story

- Higurashi had some metaphors about games and game theory but Umineko build its entire plot around this analogies.

- Higurashi had Bernkastel as a "by-product" of Rikas (n)everchanging fate but Umineko takes this character (or some VERY similar ... before anyone starts complaining) and adds a lot of depth be integration "rivals" and old "friends" to play off against, hints of more background story and a lot more characterization as a whole.

Also the relevance of the loops for the story and mystery get much more transparent much earlier and many major themes are totally different some even subverting or mocking ideas of his first series.

So if thats only rehashing and has no creative or intellectual merit I really don't see any artistic work which doesn't invent the wheel anew has either.
So much for this random rantings about this.
Thank you, I couldn't of said it better myself. In my opinion, calling this sort of "rehashing" "lame" is the same as admitting "I've never studied literature."

Quote:
You could even assume that Virgilia and Ronove were Yasus idea while drift in such realms of fantasy worlds (but thats conflicting with the 2nd Beato most like inventing those magical personas in Kuwadorian or meta world Beato just making them up in the first place for the sake of her gameboards).
I think we can take for granted that Yasu created those personas, seeing as how Beatrice 2 didn't believe she was a witch, and meta-Beato basically IS Yasu.

Quote:
The most obvious flaw in this it how it brakes the whole reason to murder people and react with emo frustration to everything but perhaps thats just part of all the other personalities and this Beato persona really is some more or less happy person while Shannon and Kanon have the big drama going on.
The bigger flaw is that it's made increasingly obvious that Beatrice didn't kill anyone.
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Old 2010-11-23, 19:13   Link #1650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digdri View Post
Spoiler for theory:
Well with Umineko I think this is pretty interesting because there are so many references that are a part of it. For example on of the things I think you missed is the references the Norse pantheon that get put in there. The magic battle in episode 3 and, dragon Kinzo, and Battler dying hung on a sword are examples. The only thing missing really the tree of life Yggdrasil.

As for Beato I think her and Maria take on different aspects of the imagination thing your talking about. Beato's gift is she can take a scenario, one given to her I presume, and spin it into something interesting thousands of times.

Maria's alleged gift is she can create something original from nothing. So if you think about it they're the perfect pair. Maria comes up with the scenario Beato spins it endlessly. ????. Then Profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, regardless, it's because the red was cut that I don't trust it's validity. We've been shown it's possible to say untrue things in Red so long as the sentence isn't completed.
I saw it pointed out somewhere before that if you added one more Kanji to Bern's unfinished sentence it would even say 'everything she showed is NOT true'. So maybe we can even argue that she meant to say something else entirely.
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Old 2010-11-23, 19:43   Link #1651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I think we can take for granted that Yasu created those personas, seeing as how Beatrice 2 didn't believe she was a witch, and meta-Beato basically IS Yasu.
Well Beatrice2 may not have believe in her being a witch but still EP3 and EP6 still if a clear impression that she wanted to learn what this witchcraft stuff is about and to understand her purpose of her life ... and on top of this appreciation from Father.

Specially the stuff about Kumasawa helping Chick-Beato after "father" Battler shows all this frustration to her still very much fit this dynamic of Virgila and Ronove as her loyal and dependable servants and some kind of important "friends".

Oh boy this gets annoying to argue that Beatrice2 may have never had this ideas on her mind but Meta Beato could still have changed the scene to communicate her big metaphor about Beatrice2's life in Anti-Mystery fashion no matter if this is just content of some invented dairy manuscript from Yazu.
Thats so messed that like 1/4 of the important characters and problems in the story all share the same name and some defuse identity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The bigger flaw is that it's made increasingly obvious that Beatrice didn't kill anyone.
You could still argue that this all went south afterwards for all this new conflicts by the time the final conference approaches (or additional influences) but I realize that this is a rather weak argument which only again has to rely on this dreaded versions of a) "But he/she/it is crazy anyways, it doesn't have to make sense" or b) "Life gets complicated... let's kill everybody" melodrama

Still they has to be some importance to Maria for all his events to happen otherwise she would most likely thread her as a pawn like everybody else yet still Maria is show as very dear and relevant to her on different occasions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well with Umineko I think this is pretty interesting because there are so many references that are a part of it. For example on of the things I think you missed is the references the Norse pantheon that get put in there. The magic battle in episode 3 and, dragon Kinzo, and Battler dying hung on a sword are examples. The only thing missing really the tree of life Yggdrasil.

As for Beato I think her and Maria take on different aspects of the imagination thing your talking about. Beato's gift is she can take a scenario, one given to her I presume, and spin it into something interesting thousands of times.

Maria's alleged gift is she can create something original from nothing. So if you think about it they're the perfect pair. Maria comes up with the scenario Beato spins it endlessly. ????. Then Profit.
Oh yes... obviously forget that the story even makes direct references to Norse, Greek AND biblical concepts at the same time.
The impalement on the sword didn't catch my attention as a mythological reference. Mind giving me a hint?
And dragon Kinzo ... well that seem just a bit too random for me to refer to anything then fantasy stuff. Or did the SN make any more specific addition about this event I simple forgot?

I like this complimentary idea about Maria and Beato. Seems to fit really well with all this GM'ing the stories talk about.
Always thought about all this stuff comparable to P&P RPGs and how those are often broken down in the construction of the story (source books) and the actual adventure story itself unfolding.
When this talk about Bern not being the GM and this "fan theories episode" interpretation in EP7 surfaced I was heavily reminded of this.
Perhaps there really is a divide between some kind of master plan or ideology and the execution of the murder / illusion stuff between different people.
There is only the big problem that Maria is the most unlikely character to actually play any part in this so she be some kind of innocent inspiration for some scheme. More then that just wouldn't fit her behavior at all.

Last edited by Digdri; 2010-11-23 at 20:25.
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Old 2010-11-23, 19:56   Link #1652
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Quote:
Well Beatrice2 may not have believe in her being a witch but still EP3 and EP6 still if a clear impression that she wanted to learn what this witchcraft stuff is about and to understand her purpose of her life ... and on top of this appreciation from Father.
Neither of those are really characterized to Beatrice 2, though. Elements of her are there, but those scenes gives us the characterization and view-point of Meta-Beatrice, who in EP3 is trying to feed Battler the story that all three Beatrices are the same immortal individual.
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Old 2010-11-23, 20:11   Link #1653
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The bigger flaw is that it's made increasingly obvious that Beatrice didn't kill anyone.
Probably not, but at the very least she made people look dead.
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Old 2010-11-23, 20:22   Link #1654
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Neither of those are really characterized to Beatrice 2, though. Elements of her are there, but those scenes gives us the characterization and view-point of Meta-Beatrice, who in EP3 is trying to feed Battler the story that all three Beatrices are the same immortal individual.
Yes I know it's still a bit of a stretch to assume that was the precise message the metaphor in EP3 was aiming for but arguing what Meta Beato wanted to represent in this scene also get quite shaky when we consider that EP5 confirmed that she was confusing as well as helping Battler at various point in EP1-4 to make her game what she intended it to do. Her tricks of double deception in EP3 and her great acting skills to pull it all off don't help either.

Didn't even EP7 comment about her metaphoric hints about Beatrice2 when Will talked to Kinzos about his daughter?

At least I read this part from EP3+6 as a set of hints complimenting each other rather well to tell this background story about Beatrice2 before addressing it straight forward in EP7.
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Old 2010-11-23, 23:48   Link #1655
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Originally Posted by Digdri View Post
The impalement on the sword didn't catch my attention as a mythological reference. Mind giving me a hint?
And dragon Kinzo ... well that seem just a bit too random for me to refer to anything then fantasy stuff. Or did the SN make any more specific addition about this event I simple forgot?
Battler having more than one mother is significant in the Norse mythos. Though in there I think it's 7 or 12 mothers or something and not 2.

Also Odin was hung from the world tree with his own spear for 7 days and got better. Afterward he gained mystical knowledge in magic and runes.

Dragon Kinzo could be a reference to Fafnir because of all the cursed gold.

And almost all of Virgilia's attacks except for the tower of Babel is Norse.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-11-24 at 00:01.
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Old 2010-11-24, 00:17   Link #1656
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By the way, about what you guys are saying about Beatrice and Maria, I'd like to make some observations here:

I was just thinking that if you look at all the imaginary characters that Yasu created:

Beatrice (Beatrice-1/2)
Ronove (Genji)
Virgilia (Kumasawa)
7 Stake Sisters ( 7 Servants)

You might also include Kinzo since he wasn't really alive in EP4 but sure had some... personality. It seems the pattern is that she can't really 'create' anyone. She has to pattern it off of someone else at first and change the personality.

Whereas if you look at Maria's characters, they're all made up from in-animate objects. (I believe the Siestas are Maria's since they match the bunny figures.)

So, if this holds true then it explains why Beatrice considers Maria the Witch of Origins and why Beatrice herself doesn't have this power. And on top of that, there are some characters which Beatrice should have created that must have been based on someone she knew. Namely:

Gaap (or Gaaptrice)
Shannon
Kanon



-- Although, I believe Beatrice ended up using Maria's characters but she gave credit to Maria for thinking them up.
-- In addition, I'm not just talking about the ability for someone to dream up a character at random, but the process involved in making GOOD characters, suitable for a story.
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Old 2010-11-24, 00:23   Link #1657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
And on top of that, there are some characters which Beatrice should have created that must have been based on someone she knew. Namely:

Gaap (or Gaaptrice)
Shannon
Kanon



-- Although, I believe Beatrice ended up using Maria's characters but she gave credit to Maria for thinking them up.
-- In addition, I'm not just talking about the ability for someone to dream up a character at random, but the process involved in making GOOD characters, suitable for a story.
Well, seeing as Shanon and Kanon are her, you could say that they were based off of Yasu.
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Old 2010-11-24, 00:32   Link #1658
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Well, seeing as Shanon and Kanon are her, you could say that they were based off of Yasu.
Well, that would be my first thought. But I remember someone on her saying that there could've been an original Shannon, especially as seen in the early years, who really was a good friend and perfect maid...

And so maybe there was a real Kanon somewhere else too?

Who have no real effect on the two days in question and so this line of reasoning is really just for speculation...

EDIT: Oh and of course, my favorite pet theory being that Gaap is Nanjo's granddaughter or something...
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Old 2010-11-24, 00:42   Link #1659
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I always figured Gaap, Shannon, Kanon, and Claire were all based on herself, just in different ways.
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Old 2010-11-24, 04:18   Link #1660
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Shannon always seemed like Yasu's ideal (as a maid), rather than an aspect of herself. Gaap was created by Yasu to explain why things kept on disappearing. Clair (i.e. Yasu's original Beato) was created by the time Yasu no longer wanted to play with the witch (i.e. Gaap), but wanted to become the witch herself. Kanon... I have no idea why he was created, but I think it probably has something to do with Battler breaking his promise.
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