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Old 2010-11-24, 04:28   Link #1661
goldenlove27
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I believe Kanon was created for Shannon to have a "brother" so she won't be lonely anymore was it not?
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Old 2010-11-24, 04:31   Link #1662
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Yes, but it's rather suspicious, since we saw one of the maid ass neechans telling Shannon a new servant had arrived (I think she specified it was a boy, I cannot remember properly).
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Old 2010-11-24, 04:42   Link #1663
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Yes, but it's rather suspicious, since we saw one of the maid ass neechans telling Shannon a new servant had arrived (I think she specified it was a boy, I cannot remember properly).
Are you sure? All that I remember is Shannon waking up and talking to herself about a new male servant that was coming that day.

Then the story suddenly jumps forward.
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Old 2010-11-24, 04:53   Link #1664
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To be honest, I cannot remember well. For some reason, I keep on thinking of servant Mammon during that scene, but you may be right.

Edit: I've just re-read that part, and you were right. Shannon was merely talking to herself.
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Old 2010-11-24, 09:26   Link #1665
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Battler having more than one mother is significant in the Norse mythos. Though in there I think it's 7 or 12 mothers or something and not 2.

Also Odin was hung from the world tree with his own spear for 7 days and got better. Afterward he gained mystical knowledge in magic and runes.

Dragon Kinzo could be a reference to Fafnir because of all the cursed gold.

And almost all of Virgilia's attacks except for the tower of Babel is Norse.
While we're on the Norse myth kick:

Most of the gods and mythical creatures die at Ragnarok, the dead god of wisdom is resurrected, and two humans survive by hiding in the forest.

I'm just sayin'.
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Old 2010-11-24, 11:10   Link #1666
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While we're on the Norse myth kick:

Most of the gods and mythical creatures die at Ragnarok, the dead god of wisdom is resurrected, and two humans survive by hiding in the forest.

I'm just sayin'.
lol you ticked my curiosity. Now that you mentioned it, it certainly sound rather familiar...Ragnarok could be referring to the explosion for all we know.
Thanks to you I might be going to be deep in thought about this even though I know this might be going nowhere (I'm a Norse myth fanboy )
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Old 2010-11-24, 11:31   Link #1667
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Hey guys.
(I know that this part should go to a topic of "introductions" but I'll say it here anyway)

I decided to register myself here, just because I wanted to post this theory (It's not like it will solve all the mystery but anyway...), and I don't know if anyone already posted this theory already.

Anyone ever thought that Battler could be Beatrice son?
I based this theory on:

- We know that "Battler" is an Ushiromiya, but he's not Asumu's Son.

- Battler looks a lot like Kinzo, when he was young (I know that this is not a key argument, but I think that its a valid one)

- It is hinted, that Kinzo had an incestuous relation with Beatrice descendant. Could a baby been born out of that relation? - If that's true, that child would be (probably) 19 years old - Thus we have the "child from 19 years ago".

- We know that the murders are caused because "Beatrice" loves Battler, and he forgot something important, and everything that is happening is for him to remember "that" something, and that's why he was always the last one to die. (until chapter 5 anyway).

- Beato tells Battler that he didn't knew her until 6 years ago (Chapter 4). What could be so important for him to remember about her?

Anyway these are my 2 cents. I think that the name "Beatrice" was passed for one generation to another, so the Beatrice that could be Battler's mom it's probably dead by the time of the murders (we know this because of Rosa's testimony), so this Beato that is carrying the murders could be another relative.

What do you guys think?
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Old 2010-11-24, 11:43   Link #1668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
While we're on the Norse myth kick:

Most of the gods and mythical creatures die at Ragnarok, the dead god of wisdom is resurrected, and two humans survive by hiding in the forest.

I'm just sayin'.
Woah, Umineko is DEEP.
I wonder if only two people are going to survive at the end of Episode 8. It's quite a bad end, but still better than everyone dying, no? Two is the number of people needed to form a universe after all.

I wonder if it's going to be Battler and whoever Beatrice is... But if it's about Shkanontrice then I'd feel sorry for George and Jessica.

Who's with me on Rosa and Maria? I think they'd deserve a fresh start, with Sakutaro back and all that. Rosa would probably get over her money problems with the inheritance, and as a result try to be the best mom ever in a different way. There's some explaining to do to Maria if she's not getting to Golden Land with everyone after all though, but a Golden Land with Sakutaro and a kind Mama was what she was going for in EP4, right?

That wouldn't fit with Ange's future that we've seen, but isn't the 1998 storyline implied to be part of Hachijou's writings? Something against this is that she seemed to start with EP3 which "some people thought as being the real story of Rokkenjima", essentially for the fact that Eva was alive unlike the first two message bottles. So I'm not sure if EP8 is meant to represent Rokkenjima Prime, but if Eva doesn't survive we would need to question if EP4's Ange part is "1998 Prime".
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Old 2010-11-24, 11:56   Link #1669
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The point is Yasu has been confirmed and as having 19 years and as being Beatrice2's child, and Yasu's background matches with Shannon's.

So the "man from 19 years before" and Beatrice2's son is almost certainly Yasu. If Battler was born from Beatrice2 then he's Yasu's twin. In that case we'd have yet another incestuous romance.

As for the last two points EP7 already explained in details what is Battler's sin, and that's the irresponsible words he said to Shannon.

Of course Battler sinned against "Shannon" and he didn't know Beatrice back then.


Basically every point you mentioned already has an explanation, that doesn't prove that your theory is wrong, but in my opinion it isn't necessary and would only complicate things further.

As of now the theory that Battler is Kyrie's son that has been swapped at birth with Asumu's stillborn is the most probable explanation.
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Old 2010-11-24, 12:09   Link #1670
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As of now the theory that Battler is Kyrie's son that has been swapped at birth with Asumu's stillborn is the most probable explanation.
Though we still have basically no explanation as to why Rudolf (or whoever) would have done this.

I'm still coming around to "BATTLER is a fictional, not flesh and blood, character, and 'Ushiromiya Battler' was Asumu's son." But then the Kyrie thing seems like a pointless story appendage. I can't help but think there won't be any good answer to that one.

Also on survivors: Whether Eva did or not (I'm inclined to think so since it's happened twice now), the story is practically beating us over the head that Battler is alive at this point. This was long foreshadowed.

If you want my guess, Ange gets her secondary wish (if her whole family can't come back, at least bring Battler back), and/or resolution she can live with regarding the truth (or "truth") of the incident. That will be about as close to a happy ending as the story merits. Anything happier is flirting with schmaltz.
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Old 2010-11-24, 13:16   Link #1671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@KazePT

The point is Yasu has been confirmed and as having 19 years and as being Beatrice2's child, and Yasu's background matches with Shannon's.

So the "man from 19 years before" and Beatrice2's son is almost certainly Yasu. If Battler was born from Beatrice2 then he's Yasu's twin. In that case we'd have yet another incestuous romance.
Oh, I didn't knew about this. This was confirmed on this 7th episode? (I only read the part that is translated).

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As for the last two points EP7 already explained in details what is Battler's sin, and that's the irresponsible words he said to Shannon.

Of course Battler sinned against "Shannon" and he didn't know Beatrice back then.
Oh god. Then what Battler needed to remember was his sin against Shannon?
And when he found about this (and became the Game Master) he was so comprehensible with everything that "Beatrice" did?
That sound so bad =.=...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Basically every point you mentioned already has an explanation, that doesn't prove that your theory is wrong, but in my opinion it isn't necessary and would only complicate things further.

As of now the theory that Battler is Kyrie's son that has been swapped at birth with Asumu's stillborn is the most probable explanation.
Well, I just thought about that theory because I thought that s deep love was needed to be in the source of all the murders (like mother-son love or something like that).
About the theory that Battler is Kyrie's son, I thought that it wouldn't add much to the plot, or explain any of Battler's attitudes. (So I discarded it XD)
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Old 2010-11-24, 14:01   Link #1672
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I would say more "we are led heavily to believe it." Yasu him/herself is led to think so, and I don't doubt honestly believes it, but that information is coming from Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo and I'm still pretty suspicious of what their angle in all of this is.

Ep7 definitely wants us to believe in a continuity of Beatrice...s, not just symbolically but genetically. Whether that is truth or a convenience that fits the known facts is something I can't fully determine myself here.

Also, the ep7 variation given as Battler's "sin" is ridiculous nonsense that isn't even really his fault. What's weird is that it's only ridiculous because of a fact in ep7 itself. It would be a stupid, but valid, explanation without it. Which just makes it all the more strange.
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Old 2010-11-24, 15:13   Link #1673
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Well it's not like I ever really suspected that Battler's sin was anything major.

Since the beginning pretty much everyone considered the possibility that the sin was a "Keiichi's doll" all over again. It turns out we weren't wrong.
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Old 2010-11-25, 11:38   Link #1674
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well it's not like I ever really suspected that Battler's sin was anything major.

Since the beginning pretty much everyone considered the possibility that the sin was a "Keiichi's doll" all over again. It turns out we weren't wrong.
Oh God. How could I forget that -.-'... Damn Ryukishi.

But the Keiichi's doll incident, only caused a "hardcore mass murder arc". It was not the base of the incident in Hinamizawa.
Battler's sin, is the base for everything that happens, at least until the "Chiru" games.
(It still leaves an opening for a deeper meaning right?)
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Old 2010-11-25, 12:11   Link #1675
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I would say more "we are led heavily to believe it." Yasu him/herself is led to think so, and I don't doubt honestly believes it, but that information is coming from Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo and I'm still pretty suspicious of what their angle in all of this is.
As a very rough idea: Perhaps it is the case that G/N revealed that Yasu was in fact not related to either Kinzo or Beatrice, but after all the manipulation Yasu thought he/she just a puppet enclosing a "spirit" which should have died 19 years ago? I think some twist on the soul-cage of flesh idea might make this easier to understand. I also think this is interesting in where it leaves Kumasawa in the whole situation. However, that being said, my ability to understand several things in the episode is vague at best, but I think it's an interesting possibility none-the-less.
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Old 2010-11-25, 12:27   Link #1676
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Does it really matter much if Yasu is not really the daughter of Kinzo and Beatrice 2? I mean, by EP6 we knew pretty much Shannon and Beatrice were the same person. Now, EP7 tells us both of them were created by one person nicknamed Yasu.

Unless we're going by the idea that the child from 19 years ago survived, but it isn't Yasu but yet another character we do not know, who happens to be the murderer/mastermind, then I don't see the point of wondering whether Yasu is actually Kinzo's child.

I think Yasu being Kinzo and Beatrice 2's child works a lot better with the idea we've had from the beginning that there were many components for the Beatrice we know. We have Bice, the Shinto legends from Akujikishima, the legend of the witch, Beatrice 2. Yasu being Kinzo's daughter, I think, would fit rather well, since she'd fit into the whole Beatrice picture much better this way - not that she wouldn't otherwise, but I think it works more nicely this way.
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Old 2010-11-25, 14:29   Link #1677
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It doesn't really matter, from what I see its just giving a person the means and the reason to commit a crime. We dont know if this is actually the truth as to what happened but it still falls under (IMO) the concept that it shouldn't be needed to solve the Rokkenjima mystery.

PS- I remember someone mentioning the name of the arcs and how they could spell BATTLERD, just move the D to the beginning and it sounds like The Battler. So it would be The Battler of the Golden Witch.
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Old 2010-11-25, 18:59   Link #1678
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I don't want to believe that Beatrice-2 even had a child. That child's existence is not strictly necessary; and honestly, I think a point that Chiru is making is that it does not matter all that much.

Did Natsuhi really gain and lose a baby? Was Beatrice-2 ever pregnant? Did the baby live? Is Yasu the baby? If not, is the baby someone else?

It... really makes no difference. What matters is that we have a person who believes that this narrative is true; that he/she is the child of Kinzo and his secret daughter, that he/she and his/her mother and grandmother were both "Beatrice," that "Beatrice" has some sort of mystical connotations, and that this role places him/her in a particular position and imposes upon him/her particular responsibilities.

In the end, it's probably impossible to prove that the circumstances alleged to have created Yasu-Beatrice are true both individually and connected in aggregate, but it doesn't make any difference, because Yasu-Beatrice exists. We have the result of that process even if the process itself is fiction. I think that's more important to think about going into ep8 than any specifics. I personally think it's probably fiction or at least heavily fictionalized in order for everything to work out just so for Yasu... but it makes no real difference in the end, does it?
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Old 2010-11-25, 19:24   Link #1679
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't want to believe that Beatrice-2 even had a child. That child's existence is not strictly necessary; and honestly, I think a point that Chiru is making is that it does not matter all that much.

Did Natsuhi really gain and lose a baby? Was Beatrice-2 ever pregnant? Did the baby live? Is Yasu the baby? If not, is the baby someone else?

It... really makes no difference. What matters is that we have a person who believes that this narrative is true; that he/she is the child of Kinzo and his secret daughter, that he/she and his/her mother and grandmother were both "Beatrice," that "Beatrice" has some sort of mystical connotations, and that this role places him/her in a particular position and imposes upon him/her particular responsibilities.

In the end, it's probably impossible to prove that the circumstances alleged to have created Yasu-Beatrice are true both individually and connected in aggregate, but it doesn't make any difference, because Yasu-Beatrice exists. We have the result of that process even if the process itself is fiction. I think that's more important to think about going into ep8 than any specifics. I personally think it's probably fiction or at least heavily fictionalized in order for everything to work out just so for Yasu... but it makes no real difference in the end, does it?
Well, I do get where you're coming from.
But if we go down that road, then nothing really matters because everything we see is created from someone's mind, and we can't believe in anything.
That would be... unfair to anyone that reads the novel trying to unravel the mystery.

The blood connections, can have a meaning (besides the believing or not part) because it gives you a why dunnit. Even when you believe in something, the truth in the end always has a meaning.
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Old 2010-11-25, 19:36   Link #1680
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Well, I do get where you're coming from.
But if we go down that road, then nothing really matters because everything we see is created from someone's mind, and we can't believe in anything.
That would be... unfair to anyone that reads the novel trying to unravel the mystery.

The blood connections, can have a meaning (besides the believing or not part) because it gives you a why dunnit. Even when you believe in something, the truth in the end always has a meaning.
The thing is that we dont have an objective point of view during the fantasy scenes and someone with twisted psyche is also unreliable for the most part. I think the closer we get to EP8 the more we are going to get bombarded with herrings, its natural for mystery novels to do this. Its our role to try and discern which is relevant to the mystery and which isn't.

The jury is still out though, this could very well end in a fantasy. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the alternative endings go this path. Im still holding out for an absolute truth that encapsulates all the games into a mystery with just one culprit, one reason.
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