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Old 2010-11-27, 11:57   Link #1721
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't really follow you guys.

This is basically a "You can't trust anything, anything could be a lie, therefore any theory goes!"


This is no reasoning.
I'm not sure you understand the bias problem we're dealing with here.

Obviously, we can't distrust everything shown about Kinzo, but Kinzo more than anyone has an inordinately complex array of portrayals. He rages, he weeps; he's sentimental, he's cold; he's restrained and cautious with Beatrice-2, he's a rapist; he cares nothing for family, he cares everything for family (and I don't just mean Lion here, his epitaph reaction in ep5 for instance and that ep8 screenshot); he's insane, he's not insane; he's serious, he's playful. It's all over the place.

But okay, so what? We have a source bias, how is that any different from any other character? Well... think about who we're believing may be the author(s) of some of these works. Almost all of our primary candidates did not have any significant interaction with Kinzo. Likewise, most of our Ange's 1998 folks know nothing about Kinzo; Ange never talks to some old businessman who knew him directly.

You can write a story about, say, Natsuhi that catches her essential nature even if it's got some degree of fictional bias, if you know her. However, if we're believing Yasu wrote the message bottles, and someone else who is generally not believed to be that much older than her the other episodes, they had roughly one decade to know Kinzo, a decade in which he has alternately been called reclusive or even completely insane (but also playful and kind to Kanon, so what's up with that?).

Exactly how much of Kinzo did they get to know? Did Kinzo ever share his submarine story with anyone? Ep7 seems to suggest this is a secret the older people (Kinzo/Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo) share. At the absolute best, Yasu could learn about Kinzo secondhand through sources I really do not think he/she could trust unconditionally, and Battler or Hachijou or whoever couldn't learn about Kinzo at all. In fact, it's likely their only "reliable" source about Kinzo's personality were the message bottles themselves.

What I'm saying is, we have Umineko itself, and then we have the stories in Umineko, which are written about the people in the fictional world who "really" existed in that world. But the people we think wrote within the world knew some people much more closely than others (for instance, if Ange wrote a story she would know much more about Maria than someone who didn't have Maria's diary and didn't know her well). Kinzo, I would argue, is practically only possible to know through in-universe secondary sources. Sources which are potentially tainted by bias, which would transfer perhaps unknowingly to the works of the authors. I don't think Yasu would intentionally mischaracterize Kinzo, but he/she can't really know anything that happened before arriving on Rokkenjima was actually true short of being told it was by someone trusted. And the other author(s)? I don't know how they could know much about Kinzo at all.

Given that, I think Kinzo's portrayal in a given circumstance is more telling of the author's objective and personality than of Kinzo's. Kinzo is, therefore, exactly the mystical boogeyman he's made out to be, a cipher character on whom imperfect or incomplete information is projected (whether intentionally or unintentionally). However, a consequence of that is that we have to be careful about any "facts" about Kinzo.
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Old 2010-11-27, 11:59   Link #1722
musouka
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You'd think someone who cares so little for family connections and positions inherited through merit of birth like Kinzo wouldn't actually go looking for a special blood relative when anyone would do and be funnier besides.
There's nothing to suggest Kinzo doesn't care about positions inherited through merit of birth, only that he loathes his legal family and doesn't want to give them a red cent. I especially love the fact that Kuwadorian is situated to be safe from any of his hypothetical bomb blasts, but the house where his kids live will go up in the explosion. Shows very well where Kinzo's priorities have always been.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Obviously, we can't distrust everything shown about Kinzo, but Kinzo more than anyone has an inordinately complex array of portrayals. He rages, he weeps; he's sentimental, he's cold; he's restrained and cautious with Beatrice-2, he's a rapist; he cares nothing for family, he cares everything for family (and I don't just mean Lion here, his epitaph reaction in ep5 for instance and that ep8 screenshot); he's insane, he's not insane; he's serious, he's playful. It's all over the place.
I'm sorry, I really don't follow you. So because someone cries and laughs at alternate times they are an inconsistent character?
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Old 2010-11-27, 12:06   Link #1723
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There's nothing to suggest Kinzo doesn't care about positions inherited through merit of birth, only that he loathes his legal family and doesn't want to give them a red cent. I especially love the fact that Kuwadorian is situated to be safe from any of his hypothetical bomb blasts, but the house where his kids live will go up in the explosion. Shows very well where Kinzo's priorities have always been.
If you believe that was the design, sure, except that's completely shot by most of his family not living on the island about 10-20 years after he would have set it up (if you buy that he did).

Genji seems to suggest he went all quantum suicide in situations that did not necessarily place all of his family in danger (and if he's sincere about his gambler personality, that's fine). If his goal were to wipe out his family, he'd only do that at conferences. And even then, he couldn't control things like Battler not coming.

Also we have a pretty serious conflict with Kinzo's attitude toward his legal family. We're told he hates them, but in his ep7 story he suggests he just... doesn't really care about them. Eva's ep3 flashback actually more supports his apathy. You can still justify it (he put the mansion there to put himself in danger, and just happens not to care who else is present), but it recolors it significantly.
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I'm sorry, I really don't follow you. So because someone cries and laughs at alternate times they are an inconsistent character?
You need to read everything I said.
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Old 2010-11-27, 12:15   Link #1724
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@Renall

There is a huge difference between interpreting and ignoring.
Let's take for example "Kinzo being nice to Natsuhi". We know that such Kinzo is not the real Kinzo but rather the Kinzo that Natsuhi wishes for. But this is still not something you can simply pretend to be inexistent.

Are there biases? Of course there are. But that doesn't give you any rational base to simply ignore facts. If you think something isn't the truth, then you need to provide a reason, why it isn't the truth, who is telling the lie and why?

In Natsuhi's case we had several hints. The "who" was quite obvious since it was a Kinzo that only appeared in front of Natsuhi. The "why" was completely consistent with Natsuhi's personality, the reason to doubt that such a Kinzo was real was the apparent inconsistency with everything else we have seen from that man.


Too make another example, I can tell that the tea party was a lie because there are actually several factors that seem to imply it, but for what concerns the vast majority of the regular EP7 there aren't as many.

One thing not being good enough in your eyes isn't a sufficient reason to claim it's fake. If that's the way you reason you'll always end up with your own biases clouding your judgement.
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Old 2010-11-27, 12:19   Link #1725
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You seem to be concluding things I never stated. I recommend rereading what I actually said about the bias problem. Kinzo's behavior is trustworthy, but not in pinning down a complete and accurate portrait of Ushiromiya Kinzo (Prime, if you want).
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Old 2010-11-27, 12:28   Link #1726
musouka
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If his goal were to wipe out his family, he'd only do that at conferences. And even then, he couldn't control things like Battler not coming.
I didn't say his goal was to wipe out his family. He obviously just didn't care who lived or died except Beatrice.

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You need to read everything I said.
I did. You list disparate attributes of Kinzo like the existence of them cancels the others out. This is pretty obviously not the case. When we see Kinzo laughing and raging, we're getting a depiction of him at his most crazy, after his "real" family has (supposedly) died in various tragic circumstances. His insanity obviously came in stages, with Lion's death finally being the tipping point. I'm sure he also has more lucid moments.

You put forth the idea that serious people cannot be playful with different people. You put forth the idea that someone can't be sane before he goes insane. That crying and raging are incompatible. That joy and wariness can't be directed at the same person. Which is why I say, I don't understand your point.
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Old 2010-11-27, 12:37   Link #1727
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Then you didn't read closely enough. He is depicted as contradictory things within the same direct time periods, and ascribed contradictory motives and traits as essential aspects of his backstory. If you read everything that refers to the time period of 1976-1986, you'll find that Kinzo is sane and insane at the same time, to varying degrees, yet people do not seem to react to this by saying "Father/Master is subject to wild mood swings in which he is sometimes completely unhinged and at other times perfectly normal, if gruff." The sources themselves make Kinzo not merely a complex character, but a schizoid one that is whatever happens to be convenient at the time.

If you can't accept that, imagine that the source bias is excessively magnifying a particular aspect of his personality at a particular time when it is more likely than not that his behavior was not that extreme. Obviously, that would shift the apprehension of Kinzo as a character every time it's done.
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Old 2010-11-27, 13:30   Link #1728
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Then you didn't read closely enough. He is depicted as contradictory things within the same direct time periods, and ascribed contradictory motives and traits as essential aspects of his backstory. If you read everything that refers to the time period of 1976-1986, you'll find that Kinzo is sane and insane at the same time, to varying degrees, yet people do not seem to react to this by saying "Father/Master is subject to wild mood swings in which he is sometimes completely unhinged and at other times perfectly normal, if gruff." The sources themselves make Kinzo not merely a complex character, but a schizoid one that is whatever happens to be convenient at the time.
Don't you remember EP5? It clearly states that there was a time period where Kinzo began acting stranger (that corresponds with Bice's death) where he would lock himself in his study for long periods of time and he started going nuts over the occult. Then it's pretty obvious the subsequent deaths of Kuwadorian Beatrice and Lion unhinged him completely, with occasional moments of lucidity. Reread the flashback with Natsuhi where she has to explain that the baby died. You can actually see Kinzo's breakdown as it happens.

This isn't particularly shocking or confusing. There's no "sane and insane at the same time", just various degrees of insanity and lucidity--which is actually pretty normal for insane people.
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Old 2010-11-27, 14:15   Link #1729
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Kinzo is suggested to be lucid enough to attend prior conferences before his total isolation (that is, his death).
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Old 2010-11-27, 14:40   Link #1730
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How were we told to discard that vision? Kinzo still achieved all the things he did. That hasn't changed. However, it isn't as if Kinzo came out of his mother's vagina riding a rocket while going all "BWAHAAHAHAHA...!". There's more to him than just the genius we knew. All the same, we knew he was flawed, even before EP7. To begin with, it's been made clear he was a very shitty parent. We also knew about the Beatrice he kept in Kuwadorian. We even saw him crying many, many times. Hell, there was even the idea he might have even raped Beatrice and not many went around saying that their view on Kinzo had changed - I'm not saying there weren't people opposing the idea of rape. All EP7 did was to give us information on how Kinzo ended up becoming the fortune raiser, empire builder we knew him as.
Well first of all, after arc 7 I am entirely unable to see him as a genius. A eccentric gambler is probably the most positive way I can describe him now. Still it goes back to arc 5's window thing. There is no way an 80 years old would jump out from the window of the third floor simply cause he doesn't like to see his family, especially that during a huge thunderstorm. It's the equivalent of the illusion of the witch. Kinzo's person has been quite shown as someone who created the reputation that "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo" while that seemingly isn't the case, at least not to the extent the sibblings tend to claim. To put it differently, Kinzo in himself is like the illusion of the witch. Surely Beatrice does exists, but is not really a witch, and her personality (especially Beato 1-2) isn't necessarily what we were orriginally led to believe. To simply accept all about Kinzo, and to say that doubting parts of him means to "reject the validy of everything", is a ridiculously simple white and black logic. Using the same logic is like pretending that "Fantasy scenes are either 100% true or 100% lies" which was never the point.

Also Kinzo never "became insane" at least if the bomb story is true, he always was.

Edit : My point is that I don't think anyone really claims things are white and black on any aspect of the game, including Kinzo's truth, so that's not what I was trying to say.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-27 at 15:15.
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Old 2010-11-27, 14:42   Link #1731
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You seem to be concluding things I never stated. I recommend rereading what I actually said about the bias problem. Kinzo's behavior is trustworthy, but not in pinning down a complete and accurate portrait of Ushiromiya Kinzo (Prime, if you want).
I never said you stated that, but recent discussions regarding Kinzo left me with that impression.
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Old 2010-11-27, 15:02   Link #1732
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Thinking about the small shrine island that was supposedly blowed up by Yasu. I am not really knowledgable about the military so I have to ask : couldn't that have been detected, especially as an underwater event? Also I guess I'm not entire sure how it got blowed up from Rokkenjima.

I am likely wrong as I know really next to nothing about military but I'd like I guess someone to tell me wrong if I am.
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Old 2010-11-27, 15:37   Link #1733
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If you read everything that refers to the time period of 1976-1986, you'll find that Kinzo is sane and insane at the same time, to varying degrees, yet people do not seem to react to this by saying "Father/Master is subject to wild mood swings in which he is sometimes completely unhinged and at other times perfectly normal, if gruff."
Not trying to argue with you, but isn't this pretty much exactly how he is described over the various arcs? I don't remember exact dialogue, but I remember many times people using the excuse of his mood swings and being fickle. And people accepted that. I'd take that as people being used to this kind of drastic change of behaviour. When people are interacting with him (in fantasy scenes, or flashbacks I guess) they always seem to be prepared for him to change his mood at any moment, or atleast are ready for if it happens.
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Old 2010-11-27, 17:12   Link #1734
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There's a difference between "there's a chance he might be willing to come downstairs and not yell at everybody" and "there's a chance he might become sane again," which seems to be the difference in expectations between Kinzo's children and Genji. If Kinzo were that crazy, I can't see what his non-Krauss kids would be expecting out of him even if he did show up at the conference.
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Old 2010-11-27, 17:18   Link #1735
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Someone's ignoring someone lol

Still, I get what UsaTen think about Kinzo after ep.7. We were led to believe the epic greatness of Kinzo because he's able to revive the Ushiromiya family by seemingly nothing, though in actuality he's only lucky to have met Beatrice Castglioni and that she had the accursed gold. But, I still think Kinzo is great in his own right because in the end he really did what he did using very little of Beatrice's gold. oh, and he's now depicted as highly lecherous old man because of his affair with Beatrice, the fact that Rosa's born at all (assuming Kinzo really didn't care for his legit wife), and the revelation (speculation much?) that Beatrice3 is both his daughter and grand-daughter. Way to go, Johnny.

Also, I don't know about that total-isolation = death stage. I see this matter can be viewed as "since Kinzo had a history of total isolation, someone used this to mask his death."

oh, and UsaTen, yes, it could've been detected if proper seismic instruments were in place.
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Old 2010-11-28, 04:04   Link #1736
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Thinking about the small shrine island that was supposedly blowed up by Yasu. I am not really knowledgable about the military so I have to ask : couldn't that have been detected, especially as an underwater event? Also I guess I'm not entire sure how it got blowed up from Rokkenjima.

I am likely wrong as I know really next to nothing about military but I'd like I guess someone to tell me wrong if I am.
That's more of a reef than an island and it wasn't blown up. Only the shrine itself was (at least according to what Beatrice says in that dubious tea party). At any rate the reef is still there, and the amount of explosive needed to blow up a several centuries old wooden shrine is probably not that big.
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Old 2010-11-28, 13:43   Link #1737
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We were led to believe the epic greatness of Kinzo because he's able to revive the Ushiromiya family by seemingly nothing, though in actuality he's only lucky to have met Beatrice Castglioni and that she had the accursed gold.
Dude... we've known the story about Kinzo and the gold from almost day one. We already knew Kinzo received that gold from Beatrice, somehow, and that he used it to revive the Ushiromiya family. We also knew his method was pretty much use the gold as collateral, and that he took rather risky investments and decisions.

None of these things are new information, at all. Maybe, the only new information EP7 gave us about Kinzo was the bit about his past, what "receiving the gold from Beatrice" meant, and his relationship to Bice, Kuwadorian Beatrice and Yasu/Lion.
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Old 2010-11-28, 18:34   Link #1738
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Dude... we've known the story about Kinzo and the gold from almost day one. We already knew Kinzo received that gold from Beatrice, somehow, and that he used it to revive the Ushiromiya family. We also knew his method was pretty much use the gold as collateral, and that he took rather risky investments and decisions.

None of these things are new information, at all. Maybe, the only new information EP7 gave us about Kinzo was the bit about his past, what "receiving the gold from Beatrice" meant, and his relationship to Bice, Kuwadorian Beatrice and Yasu/Lion.
I know. But in ways I can't really describe, ep.7 cracked my image of him. Maybe similar to how my good image of Rosa was cracked in the later eps.
Come to think of it Umineko seemingly used this trope to almost every character.
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Old 2010-11-28, 19:11   Link #1739
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I know. But in ways I can't really describe, ep.7 cracked my image of him. Maybe similar to how my good image of Rosa was cracked in the later eps.
Come to think of it Umineko seemingly used this trope to almost every character.
I found that EP7 made me like Kinzo in a way I wasn't expecting to and in a way that is, frankly, sort of distressing to me. A lot of what Kinzo did has been built up to mythological heights, so EP7 showing that everything about him is true, but in a very human way, was really a great choice on Ryukishi's part. Kinzo is a loathsome human being in some very important aspects, but he does have a core of humanity that makes it difficult to completely ignore the pain his choices caused him.
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Old 2010-11-28, 19:43   Link #1740
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That's more of a reef than an island and it wasn't blown up. Only the shrine itself was (at least according to what Beatrice says in that dubious tea party). At any rate the reef is still there, and the amount of explosive needed to blow up a several centuries old wooden shrine is probably not that big.

Nevertheless, the power needed, in order to wipe the shrine from its existence, should have produced a sound similar to a thunderclap.
Since this topic came around, I would like to ask what was Shannon reason ( if it really was her responsibility ) to destroy the shrine?? The magical viewpoint was already been explained but the anti-fantasy solution has not been proposed yet. Does anyone have a clue about this subject?

Finally, I would like to inquire about the Golden Age theory that would eliminate all the difficulties created by the Shannon = Kanon.

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The locked rooms can be solved without using Shkanon. The Golden Age can destroy The Golden Witch's illusion without so much as breaking a sweat.

The problem would be that Umineko as a whole would suck a lot more if it hinted towards something so much only to psych the reader out without a justification other than LOL TROLLING.

Shkanon is a bad writing decision for the most part. It doesn't make enough sense, it's not the only solution that the writer could have used...And even so, it can still turn out good.

Depending on how Ryuukishi pulls it off, it could still be very entertaining. But I somehow doubt it will happen.
Would any individual care to explain??
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