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Old 2010-11-29, 03:22   Link #1741
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Yoru no Uta View Post
Nevertheless, the power needed, in order to wipe the shrine from its existence, should have produced a sound similar to a thunderclap.
Since this topic came around, I would like to ask what was Shannon reason ( if it really was her responsibility ) to destroy the shrine?? The magical viewpoint was already been explained but the anti-fantasy solution has not been proposed yet. Does anyone have a clue about this subject?
Well in fact... everyone seems to assume that the shrine was hit by a thunder.

If you trust what the tea party said, Yasu simply wanted to test the explosive on something, and she chose the shrine.
Well I personally find the idea quite weird. There was no need to blow up something to test an explosive, and the shrine wasn't even easily accessible.
I'm just saying, but if it were me, I'd rather try it out in the middle of the forest where no one can see me, and where no one can notice anything missing.
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Old 2010-11-29, 03:32   Link #1742
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Not to mention you don't need to detonate an explosive to test it. I mean, criminy.
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Old 2010-11-29, 03:53   Link #1743
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You don't?
I mean... Yasu doesn't really have any competence on that matter. Hell she barely has any competence in occultism at all, why would you expect her to have competences in chemic and explosives?
I don't think she could think of any other option.
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Old 2010-11-29, 03:58   Link #1744
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Didn't someone in EP1 claim they actually saw the lightning bolt that hit the shrine? I'm seriously doubtful that any evidence exists in the first four games to establish use of explosives there.
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Old 2010-11-29, 05:12   Link #1745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You don't?
I mean... Yasu doesn't really have any competence on that matter. Hell she barely has any competence in occultism at all, why would you expect her to have competences in chemic and explosives?
I don't think she could think of any other option.
If you're not competent enough with explosives to know how to test them for functionality, you're probably not competent enough to detonate them safely in the first place. So either the story has a certain halibut scent or Yasu is just lucky she wanted to blow herself up at some point because that was inevitable.
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Old 2010-11-29, 05:40   Link #1746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Didn't someone in EP1 claim they actually saw the lightning bolt that hit the shrine? I'm seriously doubtful that any evidence exists in the first four games to establish use of explosives there.
I don't think someone said he actually saw the lightning bolt hitting the shrine...
But yeah I doubt it was blown by explosives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If you're not competent enough with explosives to know how to test them for functionality, you're probably not competent enough to detonate them safely in the first place. So either the story has a certain halibut scent or Yasu is just lucky she wanted to blow herself up at some point because that was inevitable.
Are you sure? I find it hard to believe that this is something so much different than setting off a firecracker. The only thing that changes is the explosive power but the mechanism should be substantially the same.
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Old 2010-11-29, 05:50   Link #1747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you trust what the tea party said, Yasu simply wanted to test the explosive on something, and she chose the shrine.
Well I personally find the idea quite weird.
I think it was probably an issue of creating the proper atmosphere for this game. If you remember Beatrice's explanation about eating soup with... chopsticks I believe was the example she used, then perhaps we can say Yasu wanted to blow up that shrine, so that nothing that isn't Western remains on the island. Therefore, the sole ruler of Rokkenjima's darkness would be Beatrice, in a way, I guess.
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Old 2010-11-29, 05:54   Link #1748
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It would certainly need some knowledge to test the explosive in a warhead.

And if it is not in the form of ammunition or warhead, if you ask me, testing some explosive without hurting yourself is quite a feat for a normal person.

Not to say it was done amid a storm
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Old 2010-11-29, 06:14   Link #1749
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1) Is it dry?

2) Are all the wires connected?

3) If yes to both, you have functional explosives.
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Old 2010-11-29, 06:55   Link #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
1) Is it dry?

2) Are all the wires connected?

3) If yes to both, you have functional explosives.
But it's Kinzo.

For all we know, it may have just been cake or something set up as fake explosives. Testing a batch was the only way to make sure.
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Old 2010-11-29, 07:44   Link #1751
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Maybe Kinzo actually invented them SMALL BOMBS.
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Old 2010-11-29, 08:06   Link #1752
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
It would certainly need some knowledge to test the explosive in a warhead.

And if it is not in the form of ammunition or warhead, if you ask me, testing some explosive without hurting yourself is quite a feat for a normal person.

Not to say it was done amid a storm
If the explosive was in a warhead the hardest part would be extracting it and that yes would take a lot of experience to do it without blowing everything up.

But frankly the idea is ridiculous. 900 tons of explosives are already ridiculous by themselves, if those are divided among several missiles then I won't even bother anymore taking this story seriously.

Ammunitions are basically harmless unless loaded inside a gun. So that's another no. And how many you'd need to get 900 tons?!

I think that if we want to make this even remotely plausible we need to think that the explosive is in form of dynamite, or tnt packages.

Also let me bust the myth that war equipments needs great experience and intelligence. Excluding vehicles all weapons are dumb-proof. They are designed so that even an idiot can use them. No one is expecting grunts to be particularly smart.
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Old 2010-11-29, 09:04   Link #1753
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I really doubt anyone in Rokkenjima had the know how to remove a warhead or depth charge's explosive to use as an improvised explosive. A lot of these high explosives used in that era where highly toxic to humans and would seriously messed you up
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Old 2010-11-29, 09:08   Link #1754
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Maybe except Kinzo. An enginneer in the squad.
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Old 2010-11-29, 09:49   Link #1755
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I thought the explosives were for the "manned torpedoes" mentioned during the Kinzo backstory. Not sure what format that implies they're in, but a single warhead is unlikely.
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Old 2010-11-29, 11:20   Link #1756
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The problem is that if you could put together all the warheads of all the kaiten ever produced by Japan, you would barely get to half of the alleged 900 tons.

I'm not even sure that Rokkenjima has ever seen any kaiten at all. According to what has been revealed, the idea of using that base was scrapped and Yamamoto's squad was nothing but a bunch of people guarding a cavern.

Plus, Kaiten are supposed to be loaded on submarines, but there wasn't any japanese submarine in Rokkenjima, so why there should be kaiten? It would make as much sense as having 1000 cannonballs and not a single cannon.
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:30   Link #1757
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The thing is, we're told these are explosives from torpedo warheads. Even if the explosives themselves are isolated (i.e. not all sitting around in actual torpedos), it takes some know-how to get them rigged to blow, let alone to blow in unison. And it takes knowledge to safely transport them, so moving even one out to the shrine (in a storm, no less!) would be tricky.

This isn't a stack of TNT or plastic explosives with a timer or a firecracker or something that's basically designed to be shelf-stable and capable of detonation by an untrained person. In fact, I have no actual idea how you detonate a torpedo outside its standard operational parameters, and I somehow doubt if I lived on a couple isolated islands in Japan in the 1970s/1980s that I would have any way to figure it out without probably killing myself.

Then you complicate this further by tying it to an unorthodox detonation mechanism (the clock), and now you have some highly unusual setup presumably made by Kinzo (a trained military engineer with decades of time to plan it), and I am not touching that to remove a warhead to see if they still work. For all we know it's some cave riddled with half-opened leaky WW2 munitions and a copper spider-web of highly unstable doom.

That's not to say it's impossible for Yasu to know how to do it, just that she would basically need some very specialized information and the story as presented does not really give her any opportunity to acquire it. You can't find it in most books, even books about physics or explosives. The ideal source exists on the island - have Kinzo teach you - but I'm not seeing him actually doing that prior to the revelation, at which point he's reported to have dropped dead on the spot. And I see no good reason for Kinzo to teach a totally unknown-to-him servant how to jury-rig 50-year-old explosives on a lark.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:29   Link #1758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem is that if you could put together all the warheads of all the kaiten ever produced by Japan, you would barely get to half of the alleged 900 tons.

I'm not even sure that Rokkenjima has ever seen any kaiten at all. According to what has been revealed, the idea of using that base was scrapped and Yamamoto's squad was nothing but a bunch of people guarding a cavern.

Plus, Kaiten are supposed to be loaded on submarines, but there wasn't any japanese submarine in Rokkenjima, so why there should be kaiten? It would make as much sense as having 1000 cannonballs and not a single cannon.
So you're saying the explosives do not come from WW2 in short, if I get this right?
Is it possible to uuh gather 900 tons of explosives from the black market, even given 30 years? Also I guess it should've been a lot less then 30 years if Kinzo's "madness device" meant to work properly.

The whole thing's starting to start like a gross exageration. I guess if anything we never saw any of the explosive, not even a sample of it.
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:43   Link #1759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The thing is, we're told these are explosives from torpedo warheads. Even if the explosives themselves are isolated (i.e. not all sitting around in actual torpedos), it takes some know-how to get them rigged to blow, let alone to blow in unison. And it takes knowledge to safely transport them, so moving even one out to the shrine (in a storm, no less!) would be tricky.

This isn't a stack of TNT or plastic explosives with a timer or a firecracker or something that's basically designed to be shelf-stable and capable of detonation by an untrained person. In fact, I have no actual idea how you detonate a torpedo outside its standard operational parameters, and I somehow doubt if I lived on a couple isolated islands in Japan in the 1970s/1980s that I would have any way to figure it out without probably killing myself.

Then you complicate this further by tying it to an unorthodox detonation mechanism (the clock), and now you have some highly unusual setup presumably made by Kinzo (a trained military engineer with decades of time to plan it), and I am not touching that to remove a warhead to see if they still work. For all we know it's some cave riddled with half-opened leaky WW2 munitions and a copper spider-web of highly unstable doom.

That's not to say it's impossible for Yasu to know how to do it, just that she would basically need some very specialized information and the story as presented does not really give her any opportunity to acquire it. You can't find it in most books, even books about physics or explosives. The ideal source exists on the island - have Kinzo teach you - but I'm not seeing him actually doing that prior to the revelation, at which point he's reported to have dropped dead on the spot. And I see no good reason for Kinzo to teach a totally unknown-to-him servant how to jury-rig 50-year-old explosives on a lark.
As if I needed more reason to be absolutely confident that Yasu isn't the killer.
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Old 2010-11-29, 16:50   Link #1760
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It's still theoretically possible if she has the trigger and never touches the munitions, but that would make the shrine story a lie or fabrication.
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